8 out of around 100 rounds fail to fire, primer failure ideas?

[Machine154]

I have been having an increasing problem of rounds not firing in my Glock(s). I had built up a nice reserve of maybe around 1200 rounds and now I am digging into some of the older ones. I am seeming to have more failed rounds (started as an occasional one). I have tried them in 2 different Glock 17's (my primary and backup) - one is well broken in and the other is very lightly used. They fail to fire on second attempts as well on the 5 or so that I tried. At first I was thinking hard primers and then someone suggested high primers (they aren't visibly sticking up. The person suggesting high primers changed his mind after witnessing failed rounds even on 2nd tries.

Considering the failures are showing up in both guns (and I recently cleaned the striker pin channel in the well-used one), I am entirely convinced now that this is an ammo issue.

Here is my load:

9mm indoor range brass, cleaned in corn cob media
Dillon case lube and Dillon 550 press
Winchester small primers
4.25 gr W231
124 gr FMJ


Since it seems to be getting worse as I dig into my reserves I am starting to wonder about contamination of primers. I have been pretty careful about not handling the primers and keeping them in good indoor wood box storage. I have read that Dillon case lube is safe for primers and powder, but absent any other ideas, I am starting to wonder about this. I have decided to do a controlled test with Dillon case lube and primers. Today I sprayed 2 shots of case lube directly on 10 primers. Those go into a sealed plastic bag as well as the remainder of the pack into a separate bag. I will wait 3 months (if I can stand it) and then load and try them. In the meantime, does anyone have other ideas of ways to try to diagnose the problem? Anything I can do by taking the existing failed rounds apart?

 

[ReloaderFred]

It sounds like a primer seating issue to me. Ideally, primers should be seated .004" below flush to properly seat the anvil on the primeing compound pellet. If the primers aren't bottomed out in the primer pocket, then the firing pin just moves them forward, deeper into the pocket, with the first strike. Some primers won't go off with subsequent strikes, but most will. The key is to seat your primers properly the first time.

As for contamination, it takes a lot to kill a primer. Simply handling them won't do it. I doubt that's your problem.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[hAkron]

My first thought would be a primer seating issue. This can normally be validated by trying to fire the round a 2nd time (in a Glock that would involve putting the round back in the mag obviously). If the rounds fire on the 2nd attempt then the primer is not seating deep enough. Your first strike is finishing the seating step of the primer (which would normally somewhat crush the primer to set the anvil) and the 2nd strike is touching it off. I don't often use Winchester Primers but I don't think they are harder than other primers, so I don't know that I would suspect that. I would get 100 Winchester, 100 federal, 100 CCI Primers, and if you can find a 4th brand (Wolf, Tula, Magtech, Fiocchi, S&B, whatever) grab those also. Load a number of each (all 100 would be best) and mark them with a sharpie as to which is which. Mix them up and shoot them all. If all of the misfires are the same primer type then its the primers, if they are random and if they will fire on the 2nd attempt then it's the seating depth.

If all of the bad primers are from the same lot, maybe you have a bad lot of primers.

I know you said that you've tried 2 different guns, are these two different guns both modded with the same 'light' trigger mechanism? Your last possibility is light primer strikes.

 

[solvability]

There were some problems with hard primers from Winchester.

You have standard striker and spring?

Can you try them in a hammer fired pistol?

 

[Machine154]

My main Glock only has a minus (-) connector.
My backup is 100% stock.

None have fired on the 2nd attempt. I also thought about trying a hammer-fired gun, but haven't tried it yet.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Bad primers are EXTREMELY rare so I highly doubt it's a bad primer problem but anything is possible. I use mostly CCI and Winchester handgun primers but I have also used Federal, Remington, Wolf, Magtech and probably a few more and they all worked. As a matter of fact I can't honestly ever remember having a dead primer that I loaded and only 1 bad primer on some very old .45 Colt ammo.

Sorry I have no idea what can be wrong with your ammo. Your load is a good one and I use a very similar load without issues. Please keep us updated on the solution you might find. Good luck!

 

[LiveLife]

Bad primers are EXTREMELY rare so I highly doubt it's a bad primer problem

+1. Winchester primers are my designated match primers and I have yet to have one fail on me.


Glock primer indent should be deep with definite rectangle imprint on the primer. I ran into similar issues before and it turned out to be fouled up striker pin tube and hard/caked on fouling build up at the bottom of the tube (the other side of the breach face) which keeps the striker pin from hitting the primer cup to full depth.

Below is a comparison picture of normal Glock primer strike (bottom) and light primer strike (top).

What I would do is to disassemble the slide and inspect the striker tube. Since it will be all black, it will be hard to see and remove as the fouling build up will be hard packed at the bottom of the striker tube. I usually plug the hole at the bottom and let some solvent (Hoppes #9) soak to soften the hard packed fouling and use a small flat screwdriver to scrape it off the bottom.

After cleaning, if your light primer indent gets deeper and your primers ignite, you found your problem. If you still have light primer striker, next you want to suspect the striker pin spring and replace if needed.

Keep us posted.

 

[Steve C]

primers should be seated .004" below flush to properly seat

You have primers that were not seated to the bottom of the primer pocket. Ignore all advise regarding primer seating depth measurements other than they need to be at or below the base of the case to prevent discharge from the bolt closing or dragging in revolvers. To ensure proper ignition primers should be seated to the bottom of the pocket firmly so they take a set, how deep they are when seated that way is irrelevant as long as they are not high. With a good priming tool you can feel the primer bottom out. Unfortunately you often don't get good feel with a progressive press so just make sure they're seated firmly and the shell holder doesn't let the case move up enough to prevent proper seating.

Reloaders who are worrying about crushing the primer can back off the needed force enough in tight primer pockets so they don't always seat properly. Crushing the primer shouldn't be a worried about. I've mashed them flat in tight pockets and never set one off accidentally though they all fired when shot. As long as you don't provide a blow to the primer they are quite stable.

 

[LiveLife]

Steve, I would agree with you if the primers fired on the second strike. Primers not seated deep enough will be seated deeper with the first primer strike and second strike will usually set them off.

They fail to fire on second attempts as well on the 5 or so that I tried. At first I was thinking hard primers and then someone suggested high primers (they aren't visibly sticking up. The person suggesting high primers changed his mind after witnessing failed rounds even on 2nd tries.

To me the primer indent looks very light for Glock striker pins. My guess is that the striker pin is not making deep enough strike.

Considering the failures are showing up in both guns (and I recently cleaned the striker pin channel in the well-used one), I am entirely convinced now that this is an ammo issue.

As I stated on previous post, if the bottom of striker tube is clean (and the hard packed fouling is very hard to see and scrape off - I essentially had to chip off my build up), the striker should make deeper indent like the cases on the bottom of the picture. If the indents look shallow like the cases on the top, either the striker pin is not making deep enough indent (or something is keeping it from making deep enough indent) or the spring is weak.

After cleaning the striker tube, you can test the primers by chambering the primed cases (No powder and No bullet!) and fire them in the garage with the windows/doors closed (wear ear protection as the "pop" will be loud enough).

 

[zxcvbob]

Either primers not seated all the way, or the cartridge is dragging on something and not going totally into battery (not unsafe, just out by .001" or so.) The latter seems unlikely with a tapered case like 9mm, but I've had it happen with .38 Specials that were bulged slightly from oversized bullets, and with a .22LR that was overdue for a cleaning. A 9mm might do that if it's headspacing on the bullet ogive instead of the case mouth.

 

[Jim Watson]

Primers not seated deep enough will be seated deeper with the first primer strike and second strike will usually set them off.

Well, maybe.
A hammer fired gun will be whacking that high primer into the pocket with a 23 lb spring (Colt) but the striker spring on a Glock is 5 lbs, tops. I know the mechanical advantage is different doubt the striker guns have the impact of a hammer.

 

[LiveLife]

Jim, we are talking about striker fired Glocks. We have done intentional high primer tests and Glock strikers will seat the primer cup deeper and fire it on the second strike (provided that striker pin spring is not worn).

As you can see from the picture in post #7, normal Glock striker pin indent will be deep.

I have seen many match Glocks which see thousands of reloads fired each month (often with dirty match loads) build up hard packed fouling fairly fast inside the striker tube. Many would suspect weak striker pin spring, but once the hard caked fouling is cleaned, deep primer indents again. Of course, if the shallow primer indents persist, replacement of striker pin spring would address the problem.

 

[1SOW]

To me the primer indent looks very light for Glock striker pins. My guess is that the striker pin is not making deep enough strike.

I'm not a Glock shooter, but I deprime A LOT of 9mm Glock fired primers.

I don't see the Glock "rectangle" I've seen on a thousand (or a lot more?) Glock primers. The spring or striker may have a problem. (Just saw bds' post, I don't "know" Glocks.)

Steve C., I totally agree. Bottom them in the primer hole. Don't try to "measure your way" to a properly seated SPP. I do try not to "flatten" them before they're shot.

In about 35K, I've had "1" bad Fed spp. It had a wierd tan color instead of green when I deprimed it.

One last admittedly wild thought. What are the "lengths" of those 9mm cases. Are they all much shorter than normal?

 

[kingmt]

I first thought flaten primers but they don't look flat in the picture. They do look like light stricks. They won't have the "the Glock mark" if they don't fire. I know you said you cleaned the striker but did you take it out to clean it. You can't get it clean by field stripping it. I use ATF on my duty Glock before cleaning.

 

[243winxb]

I recently cleaned the striker pin channel in the well-used one

With what product? What did you lube with? Spray with WD 40, see what happens.

 

[popper]

I also don't see the normal rectangular lock FP mark. What is the case length? The glocks I've reloaded for don't have much of a tapered chamber, but the case should headspace on the mouth, i.e. case going in too far? Too much crimp? 1 gun is little used so I can't imagine a failed striker. Pull the barrel and check the misfire rounds against factory HS. I assume that if you tumble clean the flash hole was checked for media? Might pull a bad one to check.

 

[LiveLife]

If the primer did not ignite, you won't see the "Glock rectangle impression" that is produced when the primer cup is pressed back against the breach face from primer/powder ignition.

For me, the primer strikes look shallow.

You must clean the bottom of the striker tube where fouling is compacted down into a hard disk. It is hard to do because of the size and depth of the tube. A long soak (I did about 30-40 minute soak with Hoppes #9 twice to soften the compacted fouling) will help with removal. Other solvents (WD40/ATF) would work as well.

Many will skip/forget to do this part of Glock cleaning as the build up will "appear" part of the slide. Replacing the striker pin assembly that has new spring will help or address light strike issue but you are not addressing the root cause.

I would replace the striker pin spring only if good cleaning to remove this compacted fouling buildup still produces light striker indents on the primer cups.

 

[Ky Larry]

I have heard/read that the shape of the firing pin tip will affect primer ignition. Hopefully, someone better informed will chime in with better info.I had a similar problem with a CZ .22lr rifle. After about 250 rnds it started getting misfires. I cleaned the firing pin and bolt and polished the pin with crocus cloth. Also installed an extra power spring and have had no more problems. Good luck.

 

[Ledhore]

FYI - the striker channel liner can be easily and cheaply replaced if you suspect it is compromised.

The liner is easily removed by using a screw that is very slightly larger than the channel inside diameter. When the threads engage the liner, it pulls right out and can be easily replaced by the new one.

Also, take a close look at the plastic housing that captures the striker/spring assembly - mine had a barely visible crack in it after 50k rounds.

 

[flashhole]

Have you tried seating the primers on the misfired rounds deeper with your seating tool? See if you get movement and try them again. Great thread by the way, glad to see so many knowledgeable people sharing their experience.

 

[Searcher4851]

It sure looks like a light strike from the pic. If you have access to a hammer fired gun, try them in that. I doubt it's the primers. I've never had a bad Winchester primer in over 30 years of reloading.

 

[Hangingrock]

Light primer impact failure to fire in two different 45ACP striker fired pistols not what it seems to be.

Reseating the primers did not have a positive effect with the striker fired pistols. The failure to fire ammunition with reseated primers and with un-reseated primers fired with no problem in a Springfield 1911A1.

So I preformed the unscientific “Slap Test” of inserting a 3/8 Ø dowel rod section into the barrel. With the muzzle pointed at an upward angle tripped the action to see the movement of the dowel rod. With both striker fired pistols the dowel rod ejected clear of the muzzle with no problem. Did the same test with a Springfield 1911-A1 and the dowel rod section ejected clearing the muzzle but apparently not as snappy as the striker fired pistols (??).

I neither have nor resolved the problem yet but I’m in the process of checking various plausible mechanical, tolerance, and quality issues.

I test fired both striker fired pistol’s with WWB 230Gr-FMJ no problems.

 

[Machine154]

First, let me thank you all for so many great ideas to check. I wish I had the day off to go through them all now.

The best I can do for now is measure the cases.

Here is what I've got:
0.378-0.379 width at case mouth using thinnest part of caliper jaw
0.746-0.751 case length (best I can measure with loaded rounds) using the tips of the caliper jaw

These seem to nominally be the same as a few of my other rounds I tested.

I would agree that some of these look to be light strikes. Everybody says Winchester primers are great, so I hate to go down that road. I am thinking that I will take 1/2 of these bad apples to the range with a hammer-fired pistol and see what happens.

Anyone have specs on primer metal thickness? Should I try to deprime a couple and measure the thickness of the middle section somehow? Seems like a very difficult thing to do and do it accurately.

I will have to check into the firing pin channel 'compressed disk' thing. I don't remember that and it seems like something I want to check in any case. My only thought with this theory is that a firing pin channel issue wouldn't be round-specific. These are particular rounds that won't fire each time I try them.

 

[LiveLife]

Machine154, Glock striker pin is spring fired and if properly functioning, should indent deep enough regardless of the primer cup thickness or hardness. The striker pin travel is limited by the square base (red arrows) that would hit the bottom of the striker tube and if there is any fouling build up that gets packed down (fouling gets inside the striker tube through the hole on the bottom of the slide (white arrow - I stuck a screwdriver though it to show more detail in the second picture), it would decrease the amount of striker pin travel and cause lighter primer cup indent. BTW, I would not consider Winchester LP primers to be on the "harder" side.

I took apart my Glock 17's slide to show you what I have been posting about. The striker pin uses a captured spring setup and will come out of the tube as a single unit. And no, there is no "sleeve" inside the striker tube. There is a "step" in tube cylinder about 2/3 way down that would capture the end of the captured spring (blue arrows) and you can see the rectangle striker pin hole at the bottom of the tube as Glock striker pin body is rectangle in shape.

 

[gamestalker]

I load on a standard single stage press, so I'm not familar with having to lube cases after having been primed? Personally, I would not expose a primer to anything other than to handle them while priming.

My first thought though is, they are not seated deep enough. This topic comes up quite often and never fails to suprise me because I have yet to experience a FTF with metalic, or shotshell in 30+ years of hand loading. Seat them deep .004" and I can just about promise you they will fire every time.