I picked up some 8mm Mauser brass at the range, headstamp BT3 40, Yugo made in 1940, appears Century is selling them now, must have found another cave somewhere. The brass looks pretty good. I don't have an 8mm, I doubt I will shoot ammo this old if I have one! What do you guys do when shooting old surplus ammo, how old is considered unsafe or there is no such thing as old ammo! I typically think 30 yrs. I have 1990s surplus 7.62x51 and want to use them up first. I'm low on 30-06 and online stores are selling Turkey 30-06 made in 1960s, I passed!
80 yrs old surplus ammo!
- Thread starter HankC
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Topic comes up often enough, I’ve personally shot 60 year old ammo in various calibers with no issues, even rimfire that had fewer ftf than new stuff. For me if the cases look good, no corrosion, intact primers, wax coating still intact where applicable, I’m going to use it.
ColtPythonElite
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I'd wouldn't hesitate to shoot it. If it's been properly stored, it will probably all fire.
NIGHTLORD40K
Member
Nope. Only takes one unstable charge to ruin your whole day....and maybe a hand......or eye.
NIGHTLORD40K
Member
Well, ya, but we are talking old Warsaw Pact military gear here. I gotta think the properly stored stuff was found decades ago.
Quality control and standards were low to non existent 80 years ago. That being said, I've never had any problems at all with Yugo ammo. It has a good rep. I shoot Yugo 7.62x39 that's over 50 years old. Only issue is that it has corrosive primers so I have to clean my firearm with some extra effort. I also shoot Chinese surplus 7.62x39 that's nearly 50 years old. It's actually pretty good stuff. Always goes bang.
If ammo was sealed in storage for 80 years it could be as good as new. I would be open to giving it a shot (no pun... ok, you caught me. That was me being punny) But seriously, I would buy a small number and give them a go.
If ammo was sealed in storage for 80 years it could be as good as new. I would be open to giving it a shot (no pun... ok, you caught me. That was me being punny) But seriously, I would buy a small number and give them a go.
JeffG
Member
I buy new brass, new bullets and new powder to shoot in my Yugo Mauser. No use beating up an old lady.
Carl N. Brown
Member
In peacetime ammunition is made to be stockpiled and care is taken to make powder and primers stable in long term storage.
In emergency war conditions, I suspect less care is taken.
(Recently I made a point of firing the last five of my surplus Pakistani .303 British rounds so no one would inherit them with my rifle: two fired normally, two click-bang delays like flintlock, and one supposed dud fired after four tries. All twenty of my vintage home reload .303s fired normally that day.)
In emergency war conditions, I suspect less care is taken.
(Recently I made a point of firing the last five of my surplus Pakistani .303 British rounds so no one would inherit them with my rifle: two fired normally, two click-bang delays like flintlock, and one supposed dud fired after four tries. All twenty of my vintage home reload .303s fired normally that day.)
Random 8
Member
It depends. Some powders, brass, bullet, primer combinations will last an exceptionally long time. Counterintuitive to common logic, Warsaw pact and most German and occupied ammo falls into this category. You'll find some dead primers, but given good storage most WWII Reich and postwar WP ammo is relatively reliable still today. The notable exception being Reich steel case. I will not touch that.
The above being said, even the most stable, well stored ammo will eventually fail, and may spontaneously combust. I personally try not to keep any older than 50 years, and this is ammo that was imported in quantity and is well known. I do have some older ammo inventoried. It is stored remotely in a shed I don't care much about, and being expended at a goodly rate now that I have an 8mm again. Generally old ammo that is going bad will lose power, rather than increasing. When you get into trouble is when the brass starts to degrade and you get either case rupture or case neck separation.
The above being said, even the most stable, well stored ammo will eventually fail, and may spontaneously combust. I personally try not to keep any older than 50 years, and this is ammo that was imported in quantity and is well known. I do have some older ammo inventoried. It is stored remotely in a shed I don't care much about, and being expended at a goodly rate now that I have an 8mm again. Generally old ammo that is going bad will lose power, rather than increasing. When you get into trouble is when the brass starts to degrade and you get either case rupture or case neck separation.
Carl N. Brown
Member
I once had some foreign surplus ammo I thought was made in 1953 but turned out that 53 was the number assigned to the factory.
I am pretty sure that the 44 on headstamp on the U.S. military issue .30 Carbine ammo I bought in two lightly rusted 15 rd magazines in an ammo pouch stamped Pittsburgh Garter Co. 1944 was the timestamp.
Some of the ammo was verdigris green but cleaned up nicely in hot water with dish detergent and a scour pad. After drying on the window sill, I shot them. All fired, most fully functioned the action, and I did make point of seeing a hole in the target before squeezing off the next round.
I am pretty sure that the 44 on headstamp on the U.S. military issue .30 Carbine ammo I bought in two lightly rusted 15 rd magazines in an ammo pouch stamped Pittsburgh Garter Co. 1944 was the timestamp.
Some of the ammo was verdigris green but cleaned up nicely in hot water with dish detergent and a scour pad. After drying on the window sill, I shot them. All fired, most fully functioned the action, and I did make point of seeing a hole in the target before squeezing off the next round.
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Mosin77
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I’ll shoot mosf anything out of a bolt action. But I probably wouldn’t shoot it out of something really rare or valuable either. If I’ve got a coffee can of overpowered Turk 8mm I’ll shoot that out of my Yugo refurb Mauser, not the all-matching K98k or whatever. You have to be pretty careful shooting surplus out of a semi-auto or MG, too. Many good guns have been wrecked that way. Anything questionable is best avoided.
I would pass on most surplus at the prices being asked for it today. If it’s cheap by all means, fun for plinking. When it’s nearly as expensive as excellent new commercial? Forget it.
I would pass on most surplus at the prices being asked for it today. If it’s cheap by all means, fun for plinking. When it’s nearly as expensive as excellent new commercial? Forget it.
jonnyc
Member
I've had great success with 7mm ammo from 1900, and great anger from 7.65 French pistol ammo from 1947.
Worst case you'll get click/bang, a fizzle, or nothing. Watch for squibs and broken cases. You might get lucky.
Worst case you'll get click/bang, a fizzle, or nothing. Watch for squibs and broken cases. You might get lucky.
Speedo66
Member
I bought my ‘43 M-1 Carbine in 1972 from a brother officer who had been a Seabee in the Pacific in WWII.
He included some ammo, head stamped “43”. I fired most of it over the years, all fired perfectly. I still have a few rounds left, I have no doubt they will all fire without issue.
One big plus is that no GI Carbine ammo was ever corrosive.
I’ve got some .303 for my SMLE that is marked 1957. I am still shooting it as good grief have you looked at .303 recently? Anyway, my son wanted to shoot the SMLE over the holidays and we used that stuff. About 75% of it just worked. The rest of it was “click…boom” (most of it) and two rounds required a second strike. Like @Mosin77 I am pretty tolerant with a bolt action but much more picky with a semi auto.
allisd17
Member
I still have several hundred rounds of '43-'50 Turk surplus that I occasionally shoot in my non-matching K98. If it was a collector grade rifle I would probably not shoot the stuff, but as it is, I've never had any issues other than a few cracked necks in the '47 vintage. And a sore shoulder
Bwana John
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I don’t think Yugoslavia was in the Warsaw Pact… and this ammo was produced 15 years before the Warsaw Pact was created.
I would inspect the ammunition very closely for corrosion and uniformity inside and out checking powder, bullet, case types, and weights, and see if primers hang fire at all before deciding to shoot it or not, and use a cleaning routine for corrosive priming if I did decide to shoot it
The older the gunpowder the more likely it is to have deteriorated and create burn rate instability. That is every once in a while, it goes from deflagration to detonation. Gunpowder does not burn like a candle, but people think it does. Shift the exponential curve a bit with conflicting pressure waves and high pressures occur in the case.
Shoot it over a chronograph and see if the velocities are in line with original issue ammunition.
For German ammunition standards, as a reference, from Mauser Bolt Rifles by Ludwig Olson, 3rd edition
German 7.9 mm Model 88 cartridge
Bullet diameter: 0.318”
Bullet weight: 227 grs
Muzzle velocity 2034 fps (29.13” barrel)
German 7.9 mm Model S cartridge
Bullet diameter: 0.323”
Bullet weight: 154 fps
Muzzle velocity 2936 fps (29.13” barrel)
Max pressure: 44,082 psi
Velocity of S cartridge in 23.6 inch K98 barrel:
German 7.9 mm Model sS cartridge
Bullet diameter: 0.323”
Bullet weight: 198 fps
Muzzle velocity 2575 fps (29.13” barrel)
Max pressure: 46,926 psi
Remarks: muzzle velocity with 23.62” barrel is 2476 fps
Old surplus ammunition is sold as "day old bread" to gullible Americans who don't know that old gunpowder will blow up your firearm. All you have to do is search for posts and videos to find those who have had high pressure problems and indications, and also, those deniers who want this not to be true.
So, when you shoot the stuff, look for signs of gunpowder deterioration and high pressure indications.If it produces higher than spec velocities, the pressures are higher too.
Someone's experience with surplus ammunition.
notice at 10:44 Ian’s stock cracking
And a couple of machine guns have blown up with Turkish ammunition.
WW2 4831 in the case. Gotta be safe, right?
powder looks good, except for the corroded brass stuck to it, Must be good, right?
This powder was kept in a cool and dry basement by the owner, who purchased it in the 1950's. He gave me a can, and close to ten years ago I shot it in 2014. It took less powder to reach max than new IMR 4831. Only shot five shot groups over the chronograph, nothing jumped out for ES and SD, but you know something, I don't trust the stuff. And that was before I pulled these bullets in 2022.
this powder did not look too bad. Maybe a bit gummy.
the owner gave me a handful of these cases at the range. And this is only 1969 gunpowder, young stuff compared to pre WW2 powder.
Understand this, the risk is on you. You lose a gun, a hand, an eyeball, the seller is not going to help you at all. Buyer beware with this old stuff. Sure, it does not go kaboom each and every time, sometimes a takes a lot of rounds down range to find the extra special round. But it happens.
Shoot it over a chronograph and see if the velocities are in line with original issue ammunition.
For German ammunition standards, as a reference, from Mauser Bolt Rifles by Ludwig Olson, 3rd edition
German 7.9 mm Model 88 cartridge
Bullet diameter: 0.318”
Bullet weight: 227 grs
Muzzle velocity 2034 fps (29.13” barrel)
German 7.9 mm Model S cartridge
Bullet diameter: 0.323”
Bullet weight: 154 fps
Muzzle velocity 2936 fps (29.13” barrel)
Max pressure: 44,082 psi
Velocity of S cartridge in 23.6 inch K98 barrel:
German 7.9 mm Model sS cartridge
Bullet diameter: 0.323”
Bullet weight: 198 fps
Muzzle velocity 2575 fps (29.13” barrel)
Max pressure: 46,926 psi
Remarks: muzzle velocity with 23.62” barrel is 2476 fps
Old surplus ammunition is sold as "day old bread" to gullible Americans who don't know that old gunpowder will blow up your firearm. All you have to do is search for posts and videos to find those who have had high pressure problems and indications, and also, those deniers who want this not to be true.
So, when you shoot the stuff, look for signs of gunpowder deterioration and high pressure indications.If it produces higher than spec velocities, the pressures are higher too.
Someone's experience with surplus ammunition.
notice at 10:44 Ian’s stock cracking
And a couple of machine guns have blown up with Turkish ammunition.
WW2 4831 in the case. Gotta be safe, right?
powder looks good, except for the corroded brass stuck to it, Must be good, right?
This powder was kept in a cool and dry basement by the owner, who purchased it in the 1950's. He gave me a can, and close to ten years ago I shot it in 2014. It took less powder to reach max than new IMR 4831. Only shot five shot groups over the chronograph, nothing jumped out for ES and SD, but you know something, I don't trust the stuff. And that was before I pulled these bullets in 2022.
this powder did not look too bad. Maybe a bit gummy.
the owner gave me a handful of these cases at the range. And this is only 1969 gunpowder, young stuff compared to pre WW2 powder.
Understand this, the risk is on you. You lose a gun, a hand, an eyeball, the seller is not going to help you at all. Buyer beware with this old stuff. Sure, it does not go kaboom each and every time, sometimes a takes a lot of rounds down range to find the extra special round. But it happens.
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I hope nobody is so poor that they NEED to use ammo that's corroded. It's not safe and there's no real reason to shoot stuff that is corroded, at least if you value your health and body parts.
I agree. But imagine you live in a world that believes gunpowder, and ammunition is immortal. And also believes the contradictory idea that it fails benignly. Which has been the culture of the shooting community as far back as I have researched it. I cut articles from in print magazines from the 80's where the author explicitly states that ammunition gets "weak" as it ages. If you live in that world, you won't recognize the signs of gunpowder deterioration.
I was there, I lived in that society, and I believed the in print authorities were unbiased and experts. Was I wrong. Well before the internet, I purchased a case of WW2 30-06 ammunition that came back from China. It had corroded cases with pin holes. But not all. At least not all developed through case pin holes till I fired the stuff. And there was corrosion, which I assumed was due to humid storage conditions. Remember, Conventional Wisdom is gunpowder is immortal and fails benignly. There is no such thing as corrosion due to NOx outgassing from the gunpowder. All the Cool Kids and the Smart Guys knew this to be true, and of course, they are the experts, so at the time, it did not seem risky to shoot the stuff. I did toss out the rounds with split case necks and pin holes in the case heads.
In time I began to distrust all of the left over cases and tossed them. But it took time. And I still did not know for decades about the thermo chemistry of gunpowder. And I still don't know everything. I learn by searching for documents on DTIC, Insensitive Munitions Symposium documents on the web. And old military AMCP and TM manuals. But this is inefficient and unorganized.
There is also no money to be made becoming self educated on a topic that does not make profit for industry. At least when you piss in the wind, it makes you feel warm.
So, given the Agnotology of the shooting community on this topic, along with the massive denial, how would anyone recognize the danger signs? Why would anyone assume corrosion is an an indication of deterioration? Why would anyone look?
And of course, the Cool Kids and the Smart Guys are still deigning gunpowder goes bad, and that old ammunition can be dangerous. And we all want to be part of the in crowd. If you don't believe what they believe, you won't be part of the in crowd and you won't be cool like them.
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Carl N. Brown
Member
The military had some corrosive primed .30 Carbine ammo made up for proving ground tests. Corrosive priming really messed up the M1 Carbine's essentially sealed gas system.
The French adopted a mini-CETME after WWII in .30 Carbine caiber, a delayed blowback roller block design. France produced corrosive primed ammo for it. Some of that ammo got into the military surplus market.
But no corrosive U.S. GI Carbine ammo was released into the wild. That is a big plus and the reason most GI carbines have their original barrel.
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When I was in high school late 90s. I would buy a box of cheap 45 acp from a local guy for plinking here and there. It was ww2 surplus ammo. Looked good and shot good.
I'd hope people wouldn't shoot ammo that looks like it was stored on a ship wreck from ww2.
I'd hope people wouldn't shoot ammo that looks like it was stored on a ship wreck from ww2.
Remington1911
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I don't bother for some reasons already talked about. Personally even in the age of shortages and the expense it is just not worth it to me on so many different fronts. Not the least of is for some reason my wife likes my face as it and I doubt she would find me attractive with a bolt sticking out of where my eye once was.
wesmonster
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Lotta good info here but my rule of thumb is if I don't 100% trust the round, I won't risk my firearm or safety.
I regularly shoot Yugo surplus 7.62x39 and 7n6 5.45x39 with the oldest stuff from the 80's and it was all still in original tins and clean. But that's also the first stuff I burn thru.
I regularly shoot Yugo surplus 7.62x39 and 7n6 5.45x39 with the oldest stuff from the 80's and it was all still in original tins and clean. But that's also the first stuff I burn thru.