870P or Ithaca 37 defense?
- Thread starter gleaner26
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Virginian
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870 is a much tougher gun in my opinion. Made to run with loose clearances and fits. Many love the more refined machined action on an Ithaca, but i have seen a lot at the gun doctor's.
Also, easier to single load the 870 in an emergency thru the port.
Also, easier to single load the 870 in an emergency thru the port.
Lvl21nerd
Member
dunno about the 870 but i shot my first Ithaca today and it was glorious
i just bought a mossberg, but my next shotgun will be an Ithaca
i just bought a mossberg, but my next shotgun will be an Ithaca
I have owned two 870s, but I OWN many Ithacas, including two new ones from Ohio. The new ones are of excellent quality, great fit and finish, smooth operation, and so far no troubling feeding with any loads, including 300 rounds of WalMart specials in little over an hour at the trap range, or my friends reloads, he is still getting the hang of reloading. In my opinion, and that is all this is, Ithaca 37 is the finest pump shotgun ever, followed closley by the Winchester model 12.
straitnate14
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I love my Ithacas, I got two 37's now and a 51, I want to put a short barrel on one of these days but I haven't found a cheap barrel yet.
bushmaster1313
Member
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bushmaster1313
Member
Keep the 870P.
Spend $200 to buy an Ithaca from the 1950's and cut the barrel to 18.5".
Now you will have a back-up
See 4th and 5th from the top:
Spend $200 to buy an Ithaca from the 1950's and cut the barrel to 18.5".
Now you will have a back-up
See 4th and 5th from the top:
Great gallopin' green gollywogs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Trade a top-of-the-Remington-line 870P for a bottom-of-the-Ithaca-line Defense gun?
There are many people who like & use Ithacas, and I'm not knocking them.
But, consider the following:
870P is one of Remington's top quality pumps.
The Ithaca (based on the one I had here briefly) is one of that company's lower-end guns.
870P can load directly into the chamber through its side ejection port.
Ithaca is a bottom feeder & bottom shucker, no efficient direct chamber loading.
870P is very easy to keep topped up with a separate loading port and a separate ejection port.
Ithaca is a great design for a hunting gun, not so efficient as a defensive gun.
870P breaks down for cleaning extremely easily.
Ithaca Defense model has a fixed barrel & requires the stock to be removed to get the guts out.
870P has a multiplicity of accessories available.
Ithaca has a multiplicity of accessories NOT available.
870P can be Vang Comped (if you like the advantages Vang's work offers).
Ithaca is not one he'll work on.
870P spare parts for emergency & home repairs are readily available from Remington directly or from Brownells.
Ithaca spare parts are...less available & less amenable to home repairs & service if needed.
870 barrels can be easily swapped for longer or shorter barrels on the same frame.
Ithaca Defense, you're stuck with what came in the box.
870P comes with a superior recoil pad.
Ithaca Defense comes with a...recoil pad.
870P four-shot mags are fully supported at the forward end.
Ithaca Defense leaves its four-shot mag tube unsupported.
870P has useful sight options (dunno if yours has them).
Ithaca Defense has a bead.
870P is a long proven design.
Ithaca is a long proven design.
870 has been made by one company since the 1950s.
Ithaca has been made by....three incarnations? Four?
In no way am I knocking the current Ithaca company, its Defense model, or the people who like the Ithaca products.
If you like what they are & accept what they aren't, like any other choice in buying This vs That, it's your decision.
There's just no real comparison, though, you're talking Caddy vs Prius.
Lotsa people like the Prius, and the Prius gets lotsa people from here to there.
Lotsa people are happy with what the Ithaca Defense offers.
But, why you'd think you should trade down from a Caddy to the Ithaca Defense totally mystifies me.
If you were still trying to decide & had not bought either one, I can see cost being a factor in buying the Ithaca, but if you've made your decision, and in view of the fact that you get so much more for your Remington money, why are you thinking of dropping down now?
Denis
Trade a top-of-the-Remington-line 870P for a bottom-of-the-Ithaca-line Defense gun?
There are many people who like & use Ithacas, and I'm not knocking them.
But, consider the following:
870P is one of Remington's top quality pumps.
The Ithaca (based on the one I had here briefly) is one of that company's lower-end guns.
870P can load directly into the chamber through its side ejection port.
Ithaca is a bottom feeder & bottom shucker, no efficient direct chamber loading.
870P is very easy to keep topped up with a separate loading port and a separate ejection port.
Ithaca is a great design for a hunting gun, not so efficient as a defensive gun.
870P breaks down for cleaning extremely easily.
Ithaca Defense model has a fixed barrel & requires the stock to be removed to get the guts out.
870P has a multiplicity of accessories available.
Ithaca has a multiplicity of accessories NOT available.
870P can be Vang Comped (if you like the advantages Vang's work offers).
Ithaca is not one he'll work on.
870P spare parts for emergency & home repairs are readily available from Remington directly or from Brownells.
Ithaca spare parts are...less available & less amenable to home repairs & service if needed.
870 barrels can be easily swapped for longer or shorter barrels on the same frame.
Ithaca Defense, you're stuck with what came in the box.
870P comes with a superior recoil pad.
Ithaca Defense comes with a...recoil pad.
870P four-shot mags are fully supported at the forward end.
Ithaca Defense leaves its four-shot mag tube unsupported.
870P has useful sight options (dunno if yours has them).
Ithaca Defense has a bead.
870P is a long proven design.
Ithaca is a long proven design.
870 has been made by one company since the 1950s.
Ithaca has been made by....three incarnations? Four?
In no way am I knocking the current Ithaca company, its Defense model, or the people who like the Ithaca products.
If you like what they are & accept what they aren't, like any other choice in buying This vs That, it's your decision.
There's just no real comparison, though, you're talking Caddy vs Prius.
Lotsa people like the Prius, and the Prius gets lotsa people from here to there.
Lotsa people are happy with what the Ithaca Defense offers.
But, why you'd think you should trade down from a Caddy to the Ithaca Defense totally mystifies me.
If you were still trying to decide & had not bought either one, I can see cost being a factor in buying the Ithaca, but if you've made your decision, and in view of the fact that you get so much more for your Remington money, why are you thinking of dropping down now?
Denis
bushmaster1313
Member
Denis:
You left out that the 870P will accept a magazine extension.
(Not sure if it has dimples to drill out first)
You left out that the 870P will accept a magazine extension.
(Not sure if it has dimples to drill out first)
Bush,
I considered that one a wash, since you can buy the Ithaca Defense with either a standard 4-shot mag or a onepiece full-length extended mag.
The 870P is already set up for an extension, it doesn't come with the "hunting" dimples in some of the older 870 models that do need to be addressed before mounting an extended tube.
You are stuck, again, with whatever comes out of the Ithaca box if you buy the short mag Defense model, though. It has no extension available, as far as I know, so you can't upgrade later if you like.
If you want a full-length mag tube on the Defense, you have to buy that version up front.
With the 870, you can buy a short mag to get started & upgrade later on.
Just so many more options with the 870P, including stock variations that you can't get for the Defense gun.
And by options, I don't necessarily mean bolting on 10 pounds of extraneous tactijunk, just adapting it to the user & his or her needs.
I'm still looking forward to seeing Gleaner's reasoning on this.
Denis
I considered that one a wash, since you can buy the Ithaca Defense with either a standard 4-shot mag or a onepiece full-length extended mag.
The 870P is already set up for an extension, it doesn't come with the "hunting" dimples in some of the older 870 models that do need to be addressed before mounting an extended tube.
You are stuck, again, with whatever comes out of the Ithaca box if you buy the short mag Defense model, though. It has no extension available, as far as I know, so you can't upgrade later if you like.
If you want a full-length mag tube on the Defense, you have to buy that version up front.
With the 870, you can buy a short mag to get started & upgrade later on.
Just so many more options with the 870P, including stock variations that you can't get for the Defense gun.
And by options, I don't necessarily mean bolting on 10 pounds of extraneous tactijunk, just adapting it to the user & his or her needs.
I'm still looking forward to seeing Gleaner's reasoning on this.
Denis
WVMountainBoy
Member
I'm going to tip my hand to the fella who suggested keep your 870p and buy a used Ithaca. I'm a 870 fan to be honest, but its because its what I know. I've handled and fired a few Ithacas and they are fine shotguns to be sure but since you're wanting to modify and make the gun you're own, I think you'll be happier with the 870 and the aftermarket that supports it. As for the installation of chokes, I've never had it done, but its my understanding that about any gunsmith can do it without butchering your gun. I have contemplated taking one of my older guns and having a removable tube setup put on it just to see if I can tune the pattern a bit tighter. If its a success, I may very well have it done on my primary defense shotgun.
I guess I'm just really spooked by all the QC issues I've read about with Remington. Even a couple gun review websites say they have QC issues. However they did say the new owners at Remington are working to fix the problem. Don't know if this is true or not. Like I said before this is going to be my only gun for awhile and I want to make sure I can depend on it. I also read that the 870 shell latches can be a problem. I read that they can become loose and can break off. Not sure if this is true but it it worries me. I guess I will keep the 870. Anyway the only Ithaca dealer around me is 40 miles away. I really don't feel like making the drive.
Youngster
Member
Shell latches are are rare problem with the 870, and I say this as an Ithaca fan, you're less likely to have serious mechanical problems with the 870P or Wingmaster than the '37.
However, the '37 has a smoother and lighter action that's harder to short stroke, better control layout and feel, is much easier to load the magazine on, is significantly lighter and more lively in handling, has a much tougher finish on the Defence model, the bottom eject means that bad stuff is less likely to get into the guts, and more likely to drop free if it does.
As as bonus the '37 is all steel and even sounds better when it shucks. As far as disassembly goes, yeah the 870 is much quicker to break down but most of the time and bother in disassembling the Ithaca involves getting the recoil pad off so you get at the stock screw. The rest of the gun is so mechanically simple its not even funny.
Drill a hole in your recoil pad large enough for your stock screwdriver to poke through and you're good.
However, the '37 has a smoother and lighter action that's harder to short stroke, better control layout and feel, is much easier to load the magazine on, is significantly lighter and more lively in handling, has a much tougher finish on the Defence model, the bottom eject means that bad stuff is less likely to get into the guts, and more likely to drop free if it does.
As as bonus the '37 is all steel and even sounds better when it shucks. As far as disassembly goes, yeah the 870 is much quicker to break down but most of the time and bother in disassembling the Ithaca involves getting the recoil pad off so you get at the stock screw. The rest of the gun is so mechanically simple its not even funny.
Drill a hole in your recoil pad large enough for your stock screwdriver to poke through and you're good.
Gleaner,
Remington QC problems relative to the 870 are mostly in the Express line.
The 870P should be fine for you.
As Youngster said, the shell latches CAN be a problem, but it's rare. I have three 870s, representing probably 30 years or so in manufacturing, and none has ever developed a problem.
Re QC, the Ithaca Defense I had here was returned to its maker after exactly two shots fired through it. The first locked the action on firing, I was able to get it open. The second shot locked it up even tighter & the empty shell was still in it when I mailed it back to Ithaca.
That does NOT mean to imply that all current Ithaca pumps are junk, or that the Defense model is.
I'm not mentioning it to tar the entire company based on one sample.
Just pointing it out to say QC problems can be found in other brands besides Remington, too.
The Ithaca 37 Defense is a sound design, but as a retired cop the fixed barrel, more complicated takedown process, and lack of a quick-loading side ejection port all combine to make it a third choice (behind Mossberg) for me.
Also, the only time a screwdriver's needed to break down an 870 is to remove a barrel/mag clamp, if you have one. No need to remove the recoil pad and the stock bolt.
If you don't shoot it much, don't clean it much, and don't figure you'll need to be reloading in a hurry beyond what your shotgun has in it, it can do the job.
Denis
Remington QC problems relative to the 870 are mostly in the Express line.
The 870P should be fine for you.
As Youngster said, the shell latches CAN be a problem, but it's rare. I have three 870s, representing probably 30 years or so in manufacturing, and none has ever developed a problem.
Re QC, the Ithaca Defense I had here was returned to its maker after exactly two shots fired through it. The first locked the action on firing, I was able to get it open. The second shot locked it up even tighter & the empty shell was still in it when I mailed it back to Ithaca.
That does NOT mean to imply that all current Ithaca pumps are junk, or that the Defense model is.
I'm not mentioning it to tar the entire company based on one sample.
Just pointing it out to say QC problems can be found in other brands besides Remington, too.
The Ithaca 37 Defense is a sound design, but as a retired cop the fixed barrel, more complicated takedown process, and lack of a quick-loading side ejection port all combine to make it a third choice (behind Mossberg) for me.
Also, the only time a screwdriver's needed to break down an 870 is to remove a barrel/mag clamp, if you have one. No need to remove the recoil pad and the stock bolt.
If you don't shoot it much, don't clean it much, and don't figure you'll need to be reloading in a hurry beyond what your shotgun has in it, it can do the job.
Denis
Youngster
Member
I don't know what Ithaca was thinking when they decided to offer the Defense with a fixed barrel only, when the convenience of cleaning the barrel and chamber alone means I'd eeeasily rather pay the extra $50-$75 I'm guessing it costs to have the usual threaded and lugged barrel arrangement.
Youngster
Member
DPris, you keep mentioning that the 870 is faster to load, that's only true of port loading, overwise the Ithaca has the major advantage here, by not having a thumb eating lifter in your way {which is fairly stiff sprung on Police models} and by not having to fight nearly so much spring pressure in either the magazine spring or the shell latches.
I think one of the reason 870 handlers emphasise the port load so much is because they realize that topping up the mag is simply harder to do than it should be.
If I need to port load an Ithaca I'll just tilt the gun over with the slide back, sit a shell on top of the carrier, and run it forward. It's little slower than on a gun with a separate ejection port and not something I normally do in light of have fast you can stuff the mag, but it's there if you need it.
I think one of the reason 870 handlers emphasise the port load so much is because they realize that topping up the mag is simply harder to do than it should be.
If I need to port load an Ithaca I'll just tilt the gun over with the slide back, sit a shell on top of the carrier, and run it forward. It's little slower than on a gun with a separate ejection port and not something I normally do in light of have fast you can stuff the mag, but it's there if you need it.
waterhouse
Member
I've handled one of the newer 37 defense guns and didn't really like it. I own one of the older 37s with the full mag tube and it is a great shotgun, built like all of the other 37s (removable barrel, etc.).
Youngster,
I think I mentioned my background as a retired cop, which causes me to view things differently than others on occasion.
In that context, and in training over the years, emphasis has long been placed on keeping the shotgun topped up & quickly reloaded in anticipation of an extended engagement.
In 30-something years of 870 involvement, I found & still find that what used to be called "combat loading", "tactical reloading" and so on (what you refer to as port loading) can be done on the 870 with its side port much more efficiently than it can be on a bottom shucker.
The idea in its purest form is to keep the shotgun ready to fire toward a target as much of the time as possible. That means loaded chamber and firing position.
In line with that, the 870 can be manipulated through direct chamber loading near instantly while it's still pointed toward the general direction of the target, and then the tube can be reloaded while the gun's still held in a firing position. The chamber can be charged while the gun's on the shoulder, finger near the trigger, ready to go.
There's no need to "tilt the gun over" to get the chamber loaded, which requires taking the gun out of any firing position while you do so, as the Ithaca design requires.
To put this in perspective, if you only plan to fire what's in the gun, the two designs are equal in that respect.
If you plan on the possibility of having to reload, the side port (Mossberg, etc.) is superior in terms of speed, convenience, and efficiency in its ability to keep the gun running and doing so while maintaining it in a downrange firing position.
The degree of experience & dexterity you have and the level of use you expect to get from a defensive pumpgun determine the value of the side port for you.
For me, the 870 is simply the best all-round proposition for such use, taking into consideration the whole package that comes with it.
In no way do I insist it's the best for everybody else, but that side port is a major plus in my thinking & I'm not alone. You may also notice the 870 & Mossberg are the prevailing guns for professional use, and training generally emphasizes using the side port as part of the "keep it running" curriculum.
One of the primary rules of defensive gunnery for LE & military is: KEEP IT LOADED! IF YOU FIRED IT, RELOAD IT!
As far as the mag tube being harder or slower to load, I haven't noticed it.
Even if true, the trade-off in chamber access for fractionally stiffer mag spring would be well worth it for me.
Denis
To add: I've seen others mention the lifter getting in the way. Don't quite understand that, I've never found it to be a nuisance or in the way at all. I must be doing it wrong.
I think I mentioned my background as a retired cop, which causes me to view things differently than others on occasion.
In that context, and in training over the years, emphasis has long been placed on keeping the shotgun topped up & quickly reloaded in anticipation of an extended engagement.
In 30-something years of 870 involvement, I found & still find that what used to be called "combat loading", "tactical reloading" and so on (what you refer to as port loading) can be done on the 870 with its side port much more efficiently than it can be on a bottom shucker.
The idea in its purest form is to keep the shotgun ready to fire toward a target as much of the time as possible. That means loaded chamber and firing position.
In line with that, the 870 can be manipulated through direct chamber loading near instantly while it's still pointed toward the general direction of the target, and then the tube can be reloaded while the gun's still held in a firing position. The chamber can be charged while the gun's on the shoulder, finger near the trigger, ready to go.
There's no need to "tilt the gun over" to get the chamber loaded, which requires taking the gun out of any firing position while you do so, as the Ithaca design requires.
To put this in perspective, if you only plan to fire what's in the gun, the two designs are equal in that respect.
If you plan on the possibility of having to reload, the side port (Mossberg, etc.) is superior in terms of speed, convenience, and efficiency in its ability to keep the gun running and doing so while maintaining it in a downrange firing position.
The degree of experience & dexterity you have and the level of use you expect to get from a defensive pumpgun determine the value of the side port for you.
For me, the 870 is simply the best all-round proposition for such use, taking into consideration the whole package that comes with it.
In no way do I insist it's the best for everybody else, but that side port is a major plus in my thinking & I'm not alone. You may also notice the 870 & Mossberg are the prevailing guns for professional use, and training generally emphasizes using the side port as part of the "keep it running" curriculum.
One of the primary rules of defensive gunnery for LE & military is: KEEP IT LOADED! IF YOU FIRED IT, RELOAD IT!
As far as the mag tube being harder or slower to load, I haven't noticed it.
Even if true, the trade-off in chamber access for fractionally stiffer mag spring would be well worth it for me.
Denis
To add: I've seen others mention the lifter getting in the way. Don't quite understand that, I've never found it to be a nuisance or in the way at all. I must be doing it wrong.
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Youngster
Member
I used to practice 870 shouldered magazine loading drills constantly to the point where I could keep up with the faster guys you might see, yet the first time I picked up a '37 I was already at least as fast despite not being familiar with the platform.
Now, after time spent I can probably get 'em in there quicker even while moving than I could just standing there with the 870. That's huge.
I'll admit that having a side port to throw a round into is nice at times, but as someone who spends a lot of time travelling through dense underbrush, I've seen, and experienced, that twigs and other "stuff" can get into a side ported reciever much more easily and sometimes tie up the gun.
With a bottom eject and skeletonized lifter, even if something somehow got up in there its almost certain to either drop out on its own or be pushed out.
Not just environmental crud either, when I got my '50s Ithaca it had been somebodies trap beater, had seen a LOT of rounds and the previous owner mentioned that it had *never* been disassembled for cleaning inside the reciever. I swear I found enough nearly enough plastic residue, brass shavings and unburnt powder in there to build a shell out of, to say nothing of carbon and rust.
It dropped live rounds with cheaper brands of ammo quite a bit but was still basically functional. A good cleaning and all was well.
As much as I respect the tanklike characterics of the 870, I think an 870 in anywhere close to the same state of neglect would have been coughing up blood.
Now, after time spent I can probably get 'em in there quicker even while moving than I could just standing there with the 870. That's huge.
I'll admit that having a side port to throw a round into is nice at times, but as someone who spends a lot of time travelling through dense underbrush, I've seen, and experienced, that twigs and other "stuff" can get into a side ported reciever much more easily and sometimes tie up the gun.
With a bottom eject and skeletonized lifter, even if something somehow got up in there its almost certain to either drop out on its own or be pushed out.
Not just environmental crud either, when I got my '50s Ithaca it had been somebodies trap beater, had seen a LOT of rounds and the previous owner mentioned that it had *never* been disassembled for cleaning inside the reciever. I swear I found enough nearly enough plastic residue, brass shavings and unburnt powder in there to build a shell out of, to say nothing of carbon and rust.
It dropped live rounds with cheaper brands of ammo quite a bit but was still basically functional. A good cleaning and all was well.
As much as I respect the tanklike characterics of the 870, I think an 870 in anywhere close to the same state of neglect would have been coughing up blood.
You may be the exceptionally coordinated individual that puts the rest of us to shame.
I prefer simplicity, and the side port gives it to me. I don't get that with a bottom shucker.
With the 870 on shoulder, toss a shell in the side port & gravity works for me in keeping it there while I run the fore-end forward.
With the Ithaca on shoulder, toss a shell into the bottom port & gravity is your enemy, it falls right back out again. You do have to rotate the gun, a time & motion waster for me.
I suppose the solid sides on the Ithaca could resist gunk in dense forests a shade better, but how many potential buyers would find that an issue?
I never have.
The insides of the 870 leave a fair amount of room for gunk to be knocked around in, and as generations of hunters have found the design can still function in some pretty sorry conditions.
The lifter's also pretty sturdy, which I like.
I have a Stevens 350 pump here, much nicer than I expected from its low purchase price, but it's a bottom shucker with a two-pronged lifter that I wouldn't expect to be anywhere near as rugged as the 870 lifter.
I've seen cop 870s in all sorts of states, unless severely neglected they tend to still function. Before better training and more frequent forced inspections, police could be the most neglectful people on the face of the planet regarding their shotguns. And, what you're describing there I consider purely a maintenance issue.
Let either design go too far for too long & either can fail.
I'm not sure that I consider the ability to make it for 30-50 years without cleaning a balance-tipper, I take better care of my guns than that.
If you like the bottom shuckers, that's fine. I don't, and as I said I take the 870 with it's entire package as being the best for me.
Denis
I prefer simplicity, and the side port gives it to me. I don't get that with a bottom shucker.
With the 870 on shoulder, toss a shell in the side port & gravity works for me in keeping it there while I run the fore-end forward.
With the Ithaca on shoulder, toss a shell into the bottom port & gravity is your enemy, it falls right back out again. You do have to rotate the gun, a time & motion waster for me.
I suppose the solid sides on the Ithaca could resist gunk in dense forests a shade better, but how many potential buyers would find that an issue?
I never have.
The insides of the 870 leave a fair amount of room for gunk to be knocked around in, and as generations of hunters have found the design can still function in some pretty sorry conditions.
The lifter's also pretty sturdy, which I like.
I have a Stevens 350 pump here, much nicer than I expected from its low purchase price, but it's a bottom shucker with a two-pronged lifter that I wouldn't expect to be anywhere near as rugged as the 870 lifter.
I've seen cop 870s in all sorts of states, unless severely neglected they tend to still function. Before better training and more frequent forced inspections, police could be the most neglectful people on the face of the planet regarding their shotguns. And, what you're describing there I consider purely a maintenance issue.
Let either design go too far for too long & either can fail.
I'm not sure that I consider the ability to make it for 30-50 years without cleaning a balance-tipper, I take better care of my guns than that.
If you like the bottom shuckers, that's fine. I don't, and as I said I take the 870 with it's entire package as being the best for me.
Denis
Youngster
Member
There were appeantly quite a few end users who appreciated the advantages of the bottom port in Southeast Asia. I'm not exactly a jungle fighter but I still like not having to worry about bad stuff getting in there, which is something that seems to be a nonissue until it actually happens.
There are occasionally problems with bent lifters on the '37, but it's appearantly an easy fix if it does happen. I've never seen it. If the Ithaca design does have an outstanding mechanical weakness it's the right hand shell latch and the tiny spring under it, if those are dirty or worn then its a hassle.
There are occasionally problems with bent lifters on the '37, but it's appearantly an easy fix if it does happen. I've never seen it. If the Ithaca design does have an outstanding mechanical weakness it's the right hand shell latch and the tiny spring under it, if those are dirty or worn then its a hassle.
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