Why an 870P instead of Wingmaster?

[farscott]

After lots of rounds through my trusty Ithaca M37 home defense gun, I finally broke a part that I did not have in my parts box. It was the action bar. No problem; I just ordered a new one. Well, it took some time to get here, and I decided I best go forward with a gun that has a more robust supply chain. It did not help that I discovered that Ithaca went bankrupt (yet again). So I started looking.

High on my list is the 870. In fact, my choice is an 870. My trap gun is an 870CT and I have more than a few rounds through a 28-gauge Wingmaster, so I know the gun fairly well. But I have a few questions. A lot of very smart people on this forum really like the 870P. The logic makes a lot of sense, and the 870P fits me quite well. The ghost ring rear works really well for my aging eyes, and I like the idea of getting everything at once. However, the 870P with the Wilson GR-rear and the XS front sight comes with a $600 price tag once my dealer and the state are compensated.

I see that I can pick up (and hope to) a used parkerized Wingmaster (marked 870SP) for about $300. So what does the extra $300 buy me in the 870P? I know I will need a shorter barrel for HD and that the 870P sights and the effort to install them are a handy bit of change. But I can get a shotgun that does double duty if I stick with the parkerized Wingmaster for the cost of the dedicated 870P. So I am torn.

So why the 870P? Is it really better than building a home defense gun out of an old Wingmaster? Does the 870P get a better parkerized finish than the 870SP? Is it a pain to find the shorter parkerized barrels that I would need? Are the 870P internals much different? I did read that the 870P needs a little more trigger pull than the sporting 870 models. Anything else different?

Heck, I might end up buying both. But I want to be informed if I do so.

 

[Dave McCracken]

I doubt it makes much difference, and if a ten thumbed dunce like me can build up a dedicated 870, so can thee.

The heavier trigger on the P is a downside, a hardware "Fix" to poor or insufficient training and low quality personnel.

A short barreled WM with no addons or mods is a terrific close range weapon, in trained hands.

I see no reason to get the P version, but far be it from me to discourage anyone from buying any 870 for defense, fun and/or food.

And $300 can buy a fair amount of ammo, range time or maybe a 3 day training session with a good instructor....

 

[Fred Fuller]

Scott,

IMHO it won't make a lot of difference if you build your own HD gun from a Wingmaster platform vs. buying a built-up 870P from the factory. By the time you finish buying parts and paying gunsmiths you might make out cheaper getting the package gun with the stuff you want from the factory, but it won't really be any better gun in any genuinely quantifiable manner.

You will hear a lot of folk maunder on about how much more robust the 870P is, how the springs are tougher and the shell stops heavier and so on and so forth. Know what? It doesn't really matter. It is hard to wear out a plain jane 870, be it a Wingmaster or even (gasp) an older Express gun. In fact it is dang near impossible for one solitary human to do in one lifetime of anything considered normal use. Those old 870s are TOUGH. Oh, it's possible to kill one with decades of dedicated trapshooting or skeet, sure. Anything can wear out, even mountains if they get exposed to enough weather for enough time. But good old 870s are as near indestructible as anything mechanical the hand of man has ever crafted.

Barrels are as and where you find them, parkerizing is not rocket science and it can be done for you by any number of folks. In fact, if you are going to have a fixed front ramp sight installed on a plain barrel to go with a ghost ring rear, the barrel will have to be refinished after the silver soldering is done anyway. There have been LOTS of 870s sold and lots of spare barrels too, the last used 18.5" factory police gun barrel I bought was $75 delivered by mail and that within the past three months.

So pay your monies and take your choices with a clear heart. No need to worry a lot about picky minor details if you have settled on an 870. I run across more good used 870s than I can carry home for a good bit less than $200 apiece hereabouts, and there are genuine bargains to be had among the older guns languishing on the racks. I care little for Remington's newer production stuff and had rather have older guns, but they are out there in plenty- after all, there have been several million made so far. If I were going to buy a brand new 870 these days though, it would definitely be an 870P.

Have fun, and Stay Safe-

lpl/nc

 

[farscott]

Gentlemen,

Thanks for the replies. Nice to know that an 870P is nothing more than a parkerized Wingmaster with an agency-stiff trigger.

Looks like either choice is a winner, so it will come down to time or money. Am tempted to get both so I have a gun that is running now and a project to get better acquainted with an 870's internals.

 

[Gunsnrovers]

to get better acquainted with an 870's internals.

All six or so pieces.....

I love my Ithaca 37 DSPS, but the 870 is dead nuts simple.

Enjoy which ever you choose. I love mine.

 

[riverdog]

I would go for the WingMaster, it's a very good choice. Fact is I have a parkerized WingMaster Magnum as my primary HD weapon -- 20" IC barrel with rifle sights. I modified a used field grade WM (non-magnum) for Trap -- 30" RemChoke barrel and Wenig New American stock; there's a 870TB here too, doesn't see much range time, more of a back-up which I will probably never need. Having a few guns with the same action and near identical triggers is very advantageous IMO. I understand the 870P has a heavier trigger and that's a neg in my book.

 

[wintermute76]

Werent the first 870 Police models just modified Wingmasters? I picked up an old police trade in, it has the polished Wingmaster receiver, parked 20" bead, cylinder bbl, and Remington mag extension.

Whatever it's heritage, it's a good shooter, but I can say the same for my Ithaca DSPS and 11-48 Riot as well

I don't think you can go wrong either way.

 

[AStone]

Double tap. Deleted. See next post.

 

[AStone]

Farscott, you're getting good advice here. Listen far more to Dave & Lee than me, because I'm just a novice, even if one who just bought an 870P. {No, I still haven't shot it; this build out in the new studio together with bronchitis is kicking my behind.}

So, with appropriate caveats for grains of salt, here's my 2c.

I bought the 870P after MUCH reading on THR, including a couple of threads I started asking advice. There's at least one thread somewhere on either THR or TFL in which someone, I think Lee Lapin or Dfariswheel, lists the explicit differences between an 870P and (I think) an express. Of course, 1) I can't find that thread in my bookmarks now, and 2) an express & wingmaster are different beasts, but the post could be useful to you.

However, the ultimate reason I bought the P was this: I picked it up, handled it, racked it. Within the first few minutes of that process, I knew it was the gun for me.

It wasn't even a totally rational choice. It just felt, looked & sounded right. Add the subtle but significant improvements in the 870P over some other 870's, well, I went for it.

I totally agree with Dave & Lee, though: if you're willing to spend the time and do the research, I'm quite sure you can build up a wingmaster into a 870P mode for less money than you'd pay up front.

For me, I had neither the time nor the expertiese, so I took the shortcut: I bought the P. I'll keep this forum posted about how I like it.

Best of luck with your choice. IMO, given that I had a wingmaster 16 as a kid, you can't go wrong with either one.

Nem

 

[Devonai]

Just make sure you get a magnum receiver if you want to shoot 3" shells. Said receivers have serial numbers that end with "M", while those meant to be used with 2.75" shells end with "V".

It is a point of contention whether or not the "V" receivers can actually handle 3" shells when used with a 3" chambered barrel, but I say why risk it for general practice/home defense? But in a grave emergency, I don't think a few magnum shells are going to kB the weapon.

 

[Fred Fuller]

"Werent the first 870 Police models just modified Wingmasters?"

Not even modified, just issued with 18" barrels (Police) or 20" barrels (Riot) according to Swearengen. I have two that date from the 70s or a bit earlier, both Riot guns, and they are 'just' Wingmasters with short issue barrels, plain uncheckered walnut stocks with a plastic buttplate and short ribbed walnut fore-ends. Earlier Police/Riot guns had relatively small diameter 'corncob' fore-ends and the same type plain stocks with a plastic buttplate.

"Shortly after the Model 870 was introduced in 1950, it became available in two fighting-shotgun forms. These were simply short barrel versions of the field-grade sporting gun." - p. 242, _The World's Fighting Shotguns_ by Thomas F. Swearengen. Hong Kong: Chesa Ltd., 1978.

lpl/nc

 

[wintermute76]

Lee, thanks for the info, sounds like mine is a Riot

 

[farscott]

Well, it looks like I am doing both. My dealer has ordered me a new 870P with the Wilson/XS sight combo and the Speedfeed sport stock, and I have a deal on an older 870SP with a 26-inch Rem-choke barrel.

So I have the best of both worlds, a dedicated HD gun and a sporting gun that can do more than one job

 

[AStone]

Well, it looks like I am doing both.

Now, that's what I call doing it right!

 

[Dave McCracken]

Congrats,farscott. You've two great shotguns. Now wear them out, I dare ya.....

 

[riverdog]

Yep, that's the way to solve these troubling dilemmas, the non-decision, decision

One 870 for HD and another for everything else. Now take your 870P and shoot a few or many rounds of Trap; if the trigger is good, the weight won't really matter. It should be smooth with a crisp release, not creapy/mushy. BTW, I have a 26" RemChoke and prefer the 30", it swings better for me.

The best way to deal with temptation is to yield to it (my answer to all gun purchase dilemmas ).

 

[farscott]

My trap 870CT has thirty-inch barrels as well as the Monte Carlo stock, so I am curious as to how well I do with the shorter barrels and sporting stock. That is something I will find out after Christmas, weather permitting.

 

[Kestrel]

Scott,

Congratulations. Those two shotguns are going to be more fun than a barrel of monkeys.

Here's a tip - follow the Remington instructions on that 870P, about cleaning it before using. They are coated with a cosmoline type protectant and you need to clean it off and then relubricate. Not doing so can cause it to rust easier. It seems that the protectant is good for storage in a warehouse, but not good for use. Cleaning and lubricating as per the Remington instructions will keep it better guarded against rust.

Good luck!

Steve

 

[AStone]

Here's a tip - follow the Remington instructions on that 870P, about cleaning it before using. ...Cleaning and lubricating as per the Remington instructions will keep it better guarded against rust.

Steve, I've checked my user's manual, and Rem's on line site. Neither of them really says anything about how to clean off the cosmoline. I'm assuming that it only requires a 'normal' cleaning procedure, not anything special, no special solvents, etc.

Right?

Thanks,

Nem

 

[farscott]

Steve,

Thanks for the tip. I will be sure to sacrifice a bottle of CLP when I get the 870P.

From the Remington LE web site:

Unless you properly clean off the warehouse packing product, cosmoline and completely oil the parkerization, rust can begin to form in a very short amount of time. When first receiving and cleaning the parkerized firearm, literally spray the finish (with a great product like RemOil) until it drips wet, go have a cup of coffee, then return and towel dry. This gives the lubricant time to fill the pores of the parkerization.

 

[farscott]

Neither of them really says anything about how to clean off the cosmoline.

In the past, I have used gasoline, paint thinner, or brake cleaner to strip cosmoline from metal parts. I do NOT recommend using gasoline due to the flammable vapor issue, and I recommend removing the furniture before using either paint thinner or brake cleaner.

 

[obm]

differences between 870 express and P

this document(originally a word document) is from Remington's LE division. see attached file.

 

[AStone]

Nice one, OBM. Thanks.

Nem

 

[CZguy]

OBM,

That's a keeper, many thanks for excellent information.

 

[Sulaco]

Farscott, you're getting good advice here. Listen far more to Dave & Lee than me, because I'm just a novice, even if one who just bought an 870P. {No, I still haven't shot it; this build out in the new studio together with bronchitis is kicking my behind.}

So, with appropriate caveats for grains of salt, here's my 2c.

I bought the 870P after MUCH reading on THR, including a couple of threads I started asking advice. There's at least one thread somewhere on either THR or TFL in which someone, I think Lee Lapin or Dfariswheel, lists the explicit differences between an 870P and (I think) an express. Of course, 1) I can't find that thread in my bookmarks now, and 2) an express & wingmaster are different beasts, but the post could be useful to you.

However, the ultimate reason I bought the P was this: I picked it up, handled it, racked it. Within the first few minutes of that process, I knew it was the gun for me.

It wasn't even a totally rational choice. It just felt, looked & sounded right. Add the subtle but significant improvements in the 870P over some other 870's, well, I went for it.

I totally agree with Dave & Lee, though: if you're willing to spend the time and do the research, I'm quite sure you can build up a wingmaster into a 870P mode for less money than you'd pay up front.

For me, I had neither the time nor the expertiese, so I took the shortcut: I bought the P. I'll keep this forum posted about how I like it.

Best of luck with your choice. IMO, given that I had a wingmaster 16 as a kid, you can't go wrong with either one.

Nem

I post this every few weeks on various forums. The question comes up quite frequently.

The Police Magnum has a parkerized finish on all parts where the Express uses a bead-blasted blue finish. The Police Magnum does not have dimples in the magazine tube to "prevent" the owner from installing a magazine extension. The Police Magnum does not have a J-Lock on the safety. The Police Magnum has an aluminum trigger guard where the Express uses plastic. The Police Magnum is final fitted by hand and the Express is machine fitted. The Police Magnum also has heavier springs (7 lb. sear disconnect spring versus the Express's 5 lb. disconnect spring). The Police Magnum has a 22 inch magazine spring versus a 16 inch magazine spring in the Express.
The Police Magnum comes with a heavier lifter spring. The Police Magnum comes with front and rear sling swivel studs. The Police Magnum has a shorter, horizontally ribbed (not checkered) foregrip. The Police Magnum uses a bar-stock milled extractor where the Express uses an MIM extractor. The Police Magnum also uses a thicker barrel than the 18" Express or Home Defense.

The Wingmaster is somewhere in between the Police Magnum and the Express.