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8mm Mauser brass forming die?

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Wildbillz, Jun 25, 2012.

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  1. Wildbillz

    Wildbillz Member

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    Hi All
    I just bought a used one of these (I haven't even seen it yet) that doesn't have the instructions. Can anyone give me a quick run down on how it works? 30-06 to 8mm Mauser.

    Thanks
    WB
     
  2. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    Lube case, run it in the die, take it back out, and trim to 2.230".

    rc
     
  3. gpurp

    gpurp Member

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    Is it a full length sizing die, neck sizing die, or something special?
     
  4. Legion489

    Legion489 member

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    Why on God's green earth are you reforming .30-06 brass?! Just buy some 8mm brass from Winchester, Remington, etc., etc.! If you have that much .30-06 brass laying around, do you want to sell some?
     
  5. Nullcone

    Nullcone Member

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    I made that comment in a similar thread when I first joined, except I think the OP in mine was trying to convert Berdan 8mm to Boxer.

    "Just buy some 8mm Boxer cases or Berdan primers dummy" was the gist of my reply.

    "Find some for me" was his... and he was right, EVERYONE was sold out of Boxer 8mm at the rime. Berdan LR primers too!

    Luck on however you decide to proceed.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2012
  6. Wildbillz

    Wildbillz Member

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    Legion489
    Not going to do it as a common thing. Just another tool to add to my box of "Hay I can make that" if needed. If it were impossable to find 8mm it would give me an option. You never know whats going to happen in this crazy world we live in now a days.

    gpurp
    I don't have the die in hand yet, so I don't know.

    RcModel
    Thanks man.

    WildBill
     
  7. gfanikf

    gfanikf Member

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    Used 3006 Brass is really really easy to find and pretty cheap.
     
  8. ssyoumans

    ssyoumans Member

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    I can buy quality 30-06 brass for $0.10 each. 8mm runs $55 - $72/100 for Remington - Hornady at MidwayUSA. Note out of stock till 9/24/12.

    I'd rather spend the difference on components OR buy Prvi loaded ammo. Prvi brass is nice brass. At $16/box of $20 loaded, that's $80/100 and it goes bang once included :)

    That said, I've formed around 100 pieces from 30-06. With mid-powered loads and neck sizing, the brass seems to last. No issues with them.

    Have fun shooting either way!
     
  9. Legion489

    Legion489 member

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    Yes, 8mm Mauser can be formed from .30-06, .270 Win, .280 Rem., 7x57 Mauser, 9x57 Mauser, 9.3x63 Mauser, etc., etc. In fact I am writing an article on what you can form 30-06 (7.62x63, some list it as 7.62x62) into. At least a dozen rounds off the top of my head that are 52mm long or longer, then forming .308 (7.62x51) into about 20 different cases (including .44 Mag!), .223 into a dozen or so cases, etc. Are all these conversions practical? Some are, some are just to prove it can be done "if you have to".

    I'll check a few places that have adverts for new 8mm brass and see what they say about availability and post in a few days.

    Guess I don't run in the right circles, because I never find decent .30-06 brass for the prices listed, if possible, please send links! I know I've bought new 8mm Mauser brass for slightly more than what .30-06 cost, which I thought was unfair, as there is less brass, but it was head stamped right, which saves on having to ask for the right ammo at camp! It happens.

    I have never had a problem with Prvi ammo/brass, although others claim it is not good. I guess I don't load it up until the bolt needs to be opened with a hammer and then back off a grain and call it good, then whine when the brass wears out after two loadings!

    I agree, berdan to boxer primer converting is a pain, BUT it can be done if you have too. The only problem is there are NO berdan primers to be had if you want to reload berdan primed cases with the proper berdan primer. If any one has a link to CURRENT berdan primers I would love to have it as I have buckets of perfectly good berdan primed cases. Most of the links I get are for companies that quit importing berdan primers 50 years ago, only use it in-house (like Blaser), or went out of business years ago. Saying "At Gun Broker, they have two boxes for sale" or "go to gunshows, there are usually a few collectors boxes around" really isn't helpful.
     
  10. gfanikf

    gfanikf Member

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    Legion check out the CMP Ammo forum, AR 15 EE, here to an extent, calguns, gunboards, and PAFOA.
     
  11. Wildbillz

    Wildbillz Member

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    I second the CMP forums. Its been a few years (like 12 or more) but I picked up 6K once fired LC case for what at the time seemed high but looking back it was a good deal.

    WB
     
  12. fguffey

    fguffey Member

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    Call 1 800 533 5000 to order a Special order catalog from RCBS.

    I can not imagine a case forming reloader advising another reloader to form the case-lower the ram-trim the case. It is not difficult to keep up, when using 30/06 cases to form 100 8mm57 cases a life time of trimming is required-if the case forming reloader does not have ‘the man tool’, the hack saw. I also use aircraft counter sinks. The counter sink can be used two ways, one, use a counter sink that comes close to matching the neck diameter, then use the counter sink to remove cut/trim the protruding neck, then there is the dull air craft counter sink. With a dull counter sink apply pressure, remember, the case is brass, when pressure is applied to the drill, the neck will be sized up. after expanding the neck above the die, lower the ram, like magic, the expanded/protruding neck (like magic) pops off.

    Back to trimming, the neck protruding above the forming/trim die is .260+, when trimming 100 cases 1/4 inch+ must be removed when trimming, that is equal to 25 inches+++, use the man tool, the hack saw.

    Tubing cutters?

    And remember, the forming die is not a full length sizer die, after forming, the case must be sized to the final configuration.

    and again, If I only had one forming die it would be the 308 Winchester trim/forming die.

    F. Guffey
     
  13. Swampman

    Swampman Old Fart

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  14. fguffey

    fguffey Member

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    "then forming .308 (7.62x51) into about 20 different cases (including .44 Mag!)"

    I agree, but I believe he should have added 'auto' as in 44 auto mag, case head diameter .470 with out a rim.

    F. Guffey
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2012
  15. fguffey

    fguffey Member

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    Can be done? There are design features, the auto chambers do not have unsupported case head like the Mauser, .110 thousandths, cone faced 03 and M1917 has .090 on the side of the extractor groove, for the Mauser and 03 design chambers that is not a problem, but for the auto case a 30/06, 308 W etc., could have a thicker case head, 30/06 case head thickness varies from .200 to .280 thousandths. Then there is that one rare reloader that weighs before and again after when sorting cases.

    “I got the idea from Maj. George Nonte” that statement is rare among reloaders, again, I took a picture of my micrometers and gages, the picture weighed 400 pounds, I measure before and again after, and I never read the majors books. I took the quote from someone called ‘Wrightturn’, up to the point he made the response I got the impression all the responders before him invented and or discovered the process, technique and method.

    F. Guffey
     
  16. Swampman

    Swampman Old Fart

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    I thought I had mentioned the .44 Auto Mag in my post...
     
  17. fguffey

    fguffey Member

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    "By the way, how does one make .44 Magnum cases from .308/30-06?
    .44 Auto Mag I can understand, but I don't see how you can make a rimmed case from a rimless case..."

    Swampman, Legion489 omitted 'auto', he did not say 44 Remington mag, he did not say 44 Auto mag.

    In your response "By the way, how does one make .44 Magnum cases from .308/30-06?" you omitted Remington, I do not/did not assume everyone knew what was being discussed, to me neither the 44 Auto mag or the 44 Remington mag is referred to as the 44 Magnum.


    F. Guffey
     
  18. Legion489

    Legion489 member

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    First, I was moderated for a few days for telling the truth on a different thread and the post pulled. Why anyone took exception, twice, first one "point", then another "point" a couple hours later, other than harassing me, which seems to happen every time I post, I don't know. I will send a PM to the mod (which never goes well) so I thought I had better post here first to say a big THANK YOU! for the posts where to get .30-06 brass and berdan primers. I really do appreciate the help! I've checked Graf so many time when I call and say this is Legion, they say "NO we don't have any berdan primers!" and now it is on the web site!

    One person threatened me on another thread, and said they might know me, but I am the same Legion489 at every reloading/survival/self-reliance group. Legion489@hotmail.com, Iowa City/Coralville, IA area if interested. Just like I have in the "about me" section.

    Checked a few wholesalers and 8mm brass seems to be all over if you want to buy the properly head stamped stuff. To form from .30-06, get a 8mm die, take the decapping rod out, resize as usual, get a RCBS trim die, hacksaw off and file (the TRIM die is file hard), final trim, chamber. Harbor Frieght has a nifty little chop saw for $30 or $40 bucks if you really get into case shortening.

    The .308 can be converted into at least 24 different factory cases (I'm adding more all the time as I figure out how/what), including .357 Auto Mag, .44 Auto Mag and yes, .44 Spec/.44 Mag. The Auto Mags are easy, trim, form, fire. The .44 Spec/Mag needs the case swaged down to the rim. Yes, you need to push it all the way into the die up to the rim and then push the case out with a rod, but it can be done. Is it worth doing? Now that is another matter!! Please note I said it could be done (and it can!) I just never said it was worth doing unless you are forced to. Also you need either to make a swage die or use regular steel reloading dies, NOT carbide! Carbide (or whatever else the company uses) WILL break! Use PLAIN steel dies for this! You can also use .45 ACP cases for this too. Hope that clears that up.

    Well if I'm banned for asking questions of the mod (as usually happens when I ask "why?"), I enjoyed talking with you all and again, thanks for the sites!
     
  19. Legion489

    Legion489 member

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    Well I'm still here, and as amazed as anyone. Asked the mod a few questions and got a reply, no answers, but a reply, and wasn't banned, so that at least is something.

    The 7.62x51 NATO (.308 Win, although there are differences, sort of like the 7.62x51 and 7.62 CETME, although all three cases are the same for all intents and purposes) is of course the 8x51 from 1881 necked down to .30 cal. with no other changes. The head size is 14 mm (Germany is/was metric) so it was a common size to work with. Pretty much any cartridge with a .473" head/base and 51mm or shorter can be made from the .308, and with a little trimming, swaging and/or rim turning it can be made into various other cases as well, such as the .45 Rem. Thompson, .357/.44 Auto Mag, .44 Spec/Mag, .35 Rem, and of course the commercial versions of various wildcats like the .24-08 (.243 Win), 6.5-08 (.260 Rem), .28-08 (7mm-08 Rem), .33-08 (.338 Federal), .35-08 (358 Win). For what ever reason the wildcat 25-08 (.25 Souper) never became a commercial cartridge although it is reasonably popular as a wildcat.
     
  20. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    You are saying, then, that the 8x51 predates the 8x57 of 1888?
    I didn't know that.

    CotW thinks it came out in 1888 alongside the 8x57 but I wonder at that, inasmuch as there were no short Mausers to put it in at the time.

    CotW shows different dimensions for the 8x51 and 7.62x51 especially in the shoulder diameter, so it is hard to see the .308 as a direct neckdown. But I don't consider CotW a primary reference, see above.
     
  21. Trent

    Trent Resident Wiseguy

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    You can make 8mm out of 30-06? For real?

    I've got 6k+ 30-06 left over from my old shop, don't OWN a 30-06... and I paid THROUGH THE NOSE for 8mm brass as recently as a couple of years ago. If I'd known I could convert it I would have saved myself a few hundred bucks.

    Man .. the cool things I learn on this board!
     
  22. evan price

    evan price Member

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    I've got a RCBS form & trim die for 30-06 to 8mm Mauser, and what you do is run the case up into the die, and use a fine-tooth hacksaw right on top of the die to cut off anything sticking out of the die. I've got a miniature bow saw for hobby/model railroading with a fine tooth metal blade. The RCBS die is hardened specifically for this operation. Then you lube and size as normal in a regular 8mm die.

    People used to ask me at the range where I got Lake City 8mm Mauser brass. I told 'em it was a special run for the CIA. :)
     
  23. jcwit

    jcwit Member

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    Probably! hehe
     
  24. Legion489

    Legion489 member

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    Jim is absolutely right, the 8x51mm cartridge came out in 1888, the same year as the 8mm (7.9x57) cartridge did. Both cartridges used the .318" bullet (later changes to a .323" bullet for use in the Mauser 1898 rifle). The 7.9x57 was NOT designed by Mauser, it was named after the rifle it was later used in. The 7.9x57 was designed by the German Rifle Commission for the 1888 German Commission Rifle, and Mauser was the ONLY rifle maker in Germany that did NOT get a gov't contract to make the rifle! This, as you might think, this ticked the Mauser Brothers off and they started to design various cartridges and rifles that went on to world-wide fame.

    I hope this clears up any confussion I may have caused.
     
  25. fguffey

    fguffey Member

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    I am not going to clear up anything, it has been told too many times and now it is repeated as fact, the first 8mm57 as in commission rifle had a ..318 diameter was was used in the Model 1898, then it was decided to go with a .323 bore, in my opinion based on my observations the change happened in 1905, rifles chambered to .318 were changed to 8mm57 (.323), commission rifles were modified, seems the throat was changed and stamped with an ‘S’.

    A collector of military rifles in Northern Alabama was having this same conversation with local smiths, he wanted a gage to measure the .318 commission head space??? Anyhow, they did not have a clue so I made him a set of gages for his old rifles, I instructed him he could use the same gages for the 8mm57 .323 and the 8mm57 .318, the gages I sent him went from ..000 to +..024 longer than a minimum length chamber, meaning when fired, a full length sized case was .024 shorter than the chamber when measured from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber. He had two rifles he decided not to shoot again, he hung them on his wall, I sent him 20 gages, one rifle rifle chambered the +.018 gage and one chambered the +.024 gage, he was surprised his newer 98 type rifles were between +.006 a +.008.

    Not sure about what Mauser was upset about, he had finical trouble, to keep going he had to make concessions, one concision, he was not in charge.

    F. Guffey
     
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