9 MM to be 'new' FBI round

Status
Not open for further replies.
From R.W. Dale;

This thread true or not seems to be part of a larger phenomena where 40s&w popularity seems to be waining quite dramatically.
Click to expand...

Why do you say this? At this time it is the most widely used round by law enforcement in the U.S. and very widely used by the general population. So what leads you to believe the popularity of the 40S&W is waning?

Is 40 destined to be the next 38 super?
Click to expand...

What do you mean by this?

tipoc
 
I see used 40's listed for sale in various venues to languish for weeks when the same pistol in 9mm fies off in hours for more money

I see thread after thread about people choosing 9 over 40 or moving from 40 to 9

Its just kind of a general observation that I see hints at often enough to raise an eyebrow.


38 super/acp was once very much more popular than it is today where its primarily a niche round.
 
GrayGore said:
I don't disagree that better 9mm rounds are available now than in the past. But if .40 was better than 9mm back then, why is 9mm better now, when the improvements to 9mm are also completely available for .40? Wouldn't they improve in parallel, so that .40 retains an edge?
Click to expand...

Not really

There's only one degree of dead or stopped. If 9mm is getting bad guys to that point what is 40 gonna do different
 
.40 S&W is pointless, I have been preaching 9mm for years. You don't gain enough with .40 to make up for what it costs you.
 
My "town gun" is already a Glock in the flavor of 9. Or a .38 in my pocket. Once had both for about 20 minutes. Out in the country on private land, I feel somewhat obligated to carry a single action in .45 colt, though I have packed a similar piece in .357 a couple times. I don't see the FBI issuing Cimarrons or Ubertis, so makes no difference to me one way or the other. I digress. I will admit that I never did develop a love for .40, though.
 
Miami 1986 sure highlites some truth about balistic capabilities doesnt it?
Click to expand...

Well in 1986 the only way to get a 9mm or .45 bullet to regularly expand was to make it light, fragile, fast, and by extension, a poor penetrator.

These days ammunition companies understand that making a good JHP bullet is about more than just making a cup and core bullet with a little cavity in the end of it. Bullets don't need to be moving 1200 feet per second to expand well and consistently, they can expand better than the bullets available in the 1980s while still reaching 12-14 inches of penetration consistently.

The 1986 lesson was that 1986 bullet design was woefully inadequate.


I don't disagree that better 9mm rounds are available now than in the past. But if .40 was better than 9mm back then, why is 9mm better now, when the improvements to 9mm are also completely available for .40? Wouldn't they improve in parallel, so that .40 retains an edge?
Click to expand...


GrayGore, .40 didn't exist until I believe 1990. Also, like jmr40 said in post #36, none of the other service calibers ever really had an objective benefit over the 9mm to begin with.

And since all of the service calibers show basically identical performance to one another when using similar bullets, and our bullets have gotten about as good as they're going to get, the very real advantages of the 9mm like lighter recoil and greater capacity in the same size magazine make it stand out as a service or defense caliber.

The important thing is that the ammunition improvements don't really increase the differences between calibers, it shrinks them for the most part.

Though the .40 does stand out because it is probably the easiest caliber to develop bullets for that expand well and penetrate well. Except for the heavier recoil it's an outstanding pistol caliber.

To everyone who thinks it would just vanish or guns would stop being made for it because the FBI goes back to 9mm, keep on toking brothers. 9mm didn't go anywhere when they ditched it, .38 Special didn't go anywhere when they (and just about every police officer in the U.S.) ditched it, .45 didn't go anywhere when it started to lose ground to 9mm and then .40, and the .40 is certainly not going anywhere no matter what federal agency does what with it.

It's not popular because the FBI liked it. It's popular because it gives caliber junkies and capacity freaks something they can agree on, it's an excellent pistol cartridge, and it works for what a pistol caliber can be expected to do in a pretty size efficient package.
 
Dont really care about them

At 63, I carry, 45, 357, and 9. Made my own decisions based on my needs.
Click to expand...

+1 to this. I don't relly understand why someone would change what they use because the FBI has. If I feel I need to carry a .454 Casull, then that's what I carry. I don't check if the FBI likes it.

It's a buerocracy, and I'm sure plenty of FBI agents will be mad about the switch. If handgun calibers have taught me anything it's that everyone likes, and is proficient with different calibers. You'l never make everyone happy if you "issue" guns or calibers. If it was a perfect world, agents would be able to buy the make and caliber that they trust.
 
@ the man with no name

I am no longer "on duty" as I am retired.

I still carry a BUG and like to believe that I am prepared any given day [ I have no crystal ball ] to handle a Mumbai attack or an active shooter in mall,supermarket,school,movie theater etc.

If I could actually know that will never happen.or if I KNEW when it was about to happen [ I would stay home ] then if there I would be properly armed.

But I see too many incidents of good/innocent people being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Coffee shops are an example,there is too much of a chance I could be there and would not be alone.

Defending my loved ones means not backing down [ yes,even if that made good sense ].

I carry the tools that I see as the best for the worst case scenario.

I prefer to go unarmed as its more comfortable and I can dress lightly.

BUT refusing to ever be a victim,I do what I see as reasonable and required.

I also happen to shoot SASS/cowboy action and as such I am very familiar with the Colt SAA and its copies [ own a few ].

And I would not feel comfortable in a theater attack or worse - Mumbai multiple attacker scenario.Armed only with a SAA variant .

I have carried my SAA guns,with a BUG such as a Glock 23 etc.
 
Surely the FBI couldn't be so stupid
Click to expand...

Not really a stupid choice. Like all government agencies the budget cuts are real and needed. Do you cut manpower or cut cost of ammo. How many times do most agents need to shoot it out with bad guys? 5 % of the time. Can you arm swat and entry teams with 40's and 45's and issure 9mm to those that work in the general offices collecting data, sure.

Maybe we should issure full auto M-4's to each and every agent (LOL,Not).

It's our money they are spending friends, let's not go crazy and increase our taxes.

Jim

It's the Federal Bureau of INVESTIGATION (FBI) not the national police force, that's the US Marshals.
 
Last edited:
I usually carry a .38SPL, but I own and could carry .357MAG, 9mm, .40S&W, and .45ACP. I practice with them all, and they all are capable of doing what I need them to do.

When ammo and component shortages hit, or the worst case scenario actually happens, I'll be able to shoot when those who have dropped or have never adopted cartridges they found less useful or less to their liking are struggling to find or build ammo.
 
That old (first generation?) 9mm Silvertip was great (though I preferred the old Remington 115) even though it "failed" back in Florida.. there were a LOT of failures in that little caper.
I think if this change occurs, it won't be because of a kneejerk reaction but simple observance of actual performance and logistics/availability/commonality of certain arms.
Everything is made in 9mm, pretty much.
 
^
It was a very sad/embarrassing day for the FBI. Throughout their history, protocol was to truly overwhelm the situation with trained men and firepower. They got their youknowwhats handed to them through just a bad chain of events, luck, ineptitude, overconfidence, etc. It's been a long while since I've seen that approved re-enactment but hey, they sure shoulda/coulda done better.
 
Just a reminder...no one has presented a shred of evidence that the FBI is considering a change.

Since 1997 when the 40 S&W was adopted, the FBI also allowed for agents to continue to use the 9mm and the 45acp in personal carry weapons in Glock platforms.

tipoc
 
I'm still on duty and carry my issued .40 all of the time that i'm not home. I have a few boxes of .40 at home and another .40 handgun. I'll stick with it until I run out of ammo. Having said that - I also have a couple of 9mm handguns and a few rounds of 9mm ammo. It is a lot cheaper to shoot and would be my SHTF caliber because of availability. However, it is interesting that during the last Obama made ammo crisis that Wally World had some .40 ammo in stock and no 9mm, .45, .38/.357 available anywhere.:D
 
Why would I want to change from .40 to 9mm just because the FBI changes? Having had a very close relative who spent 20 years in the FBI, I know it is an organization full of dysfunctional supervisors and govt red tape. I think anyone should think carefully before following anything the FBI does. If you own a 9mm, carry it. If you like .40 or .45 carry that. Pay no mind to what the FBI is doing.
 
If the Feds do go back it's because both rounds of today all do the same thing. The ammunition companies have come a long way in technology. I read an article in one of the gun rags in reference to the Las Vegas PD, which issues all three calibers and gold dot bullets. They stated that when bullets are place with good hits all three calibers all worked the same and when placement was off the mark they all failed the same. I also think that the price of ammunition has something to do with it also. If all three calibers worked the same with well designed bullets why spend 5 dollars or more on ammo per box for training. When you factor in the millions of rounds they use, that's big dollars. Plus the
9mm will give you more rounds and better control. I have to say I like both calibers 9mm and 40 but the cost of ammo for the range in 40 is out of sight. Buying 9mm ball for 10 or 11 dollars compaired to 15 to 16 dollars is a big deal. 200.00 dollars for 1000 9mm or 300.00 for 1000 in 40 when they both work the same. I am leaning toward the 9mm so that I can practice without busting my wallet. It's all about picking a good bullet design and placement anyway.
 
I hope not.

I think 10mm Auto is a great round, and I prefer that everyone likes .40 so that bullet selection, dies, barrels, etc is cheaper and more widely available than it would be if .40 was less popular.

When the FBI changes many police departments follow suit. The average member of the public does what the police do, considering them the professionals when it comes to firearms.
So something as mundane as the FBI changing rounds could impact my reloading options in a negative way!


So .40S&W is a great round and 9mm is horrible and nobody should be risking their lives with it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top