Bullet technology has come a long way since Miami, and the 9mm has benefitted from all of the advnacement. Is it a .45ACP...no, but todays 9mm JHPs are much better than they were when the 9mm controversies from the FBI got going. And while it might not make as big of a hole as a .45, it is easier to contol (and let's face it, the FBI is full of lawyers and CPAs parading around like cops, they are not gun guys or shooters) and they get more rounds in the same space. I carry 9mm, and always have in an auto. I trust my life to it, I don't see why the FBI shouldn't.
9 MM to be 'new' FBI round
- Thread starter scaatylobo
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Shawn Dodson
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The mid-1980's Silvertip, with the aluminum jacket, was one of the first 9mm JHP bullets that expanded fairly reliably. It penetrated about 8-inches, which was widely considered adequate at the time. Nobody really gave much thought about the possibility of having to shoot through an arm, which is what happened when FBI agent Jerry Dove shot Michael Platt at the very beginning of the gunfight. Platt was crawling out the passenger side window of a stolen Monte Carlo when Dove made this hit. Dove's bullet penetrated about 3-inches of biceps muscle in Platt's upper arm before it exited and penerated his chest. The bullet stopped about an inch short of the heart. Indeed the Silvertip's penetration performance was exactly as expected, about 8-inches, but it wasn't enough. Had the bullet passed through Platt's heart it would have substantially impaired its ability to pump blood to his brain and it's unlikely he would have gotten onto his feet after crawling out the Monte Carlo. The gunfight would have been over.
But that's not what happened, the bullet stopped short of Platt's heart and he was able to continue to act with volition for several minutes afterward, despite the fact that Dove's bullet had produced what would have ultimately been an unsurvivable wound. Platt was able to get to his feet and keep fighting. He went on to wound Agents McNeill, Mireles, and Hanlon and kill Agents Grogan and Dove.
The tactic at the time was to "swarm" suspects and overwhelm/overpower them with manpower/firepower. It worked most of the time - with suspects voluntarily surrendering once they realized the futility of the situation. This wasn't the case with Platt and William Matix. They contested with deadly determination the FBI's effort to apprehend them. Unfortunately the agents who were armed with MP5 9mm SMGs, who were also assigned to the rolling stakeout, didn't arrive on scene until after the gunfight was over.
Afterward the FBI quietly changed its tactics. It also began investigating the factors required for a handgun bullet to reliably produce a rapidly incapaciting wound. The result is the premium JHP handgun ammunition that's available to all of us today.
Detritus
Member
Maybe but personally, and i'm likely a minority on this, I kinda of doubt it.
.38 super survives because of it's use in competition, if 40s&w is dropped by the feds it may catch a lingering toehold in that arena but i'm just not convinced of that. If the LE and related (folk who buy one b/c "angency X uses this") sales of guns in the round begin to dry up it's use in USPSA, and certainly IDPA will wane as well. I really don't think that the 40S&W is going to hang around much after/if it loses its "Official cool" standing.
Let's face it the .40 wouldn't have the following it has now (wouldn't exist really) without FBI involvement. If the Feds drop it, especially if they drop it in favor of returning to the 9mm with modern HP ammo, there will be a cascade effect of LE agencies that currently use the .40 following the FBI's lead and dropping back to the 9mm for reasons of training, controllability, and in any agency that standardizes and issues ammo to all members Budget.
mljdeckard
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With modern bullets, I gave up on the .40 a while ago.
buck460XVR
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I could care less what the FBI carries. I carry what I have confidence in. I know what my weapons are capable of and I know what I'm capable of, with those same weapons. Ain't no reason to change.
F-111 John
Member
How many local and state police departments use the .40? Even if the FBI drops the .40, it ain't going anywhere for a very long time.
Texan Scott
Member
Interesting. Do birds speak to you, too? I thought I was the only one... the cattlebirds around here have been saying "Germany, Germany, Germany!" for years. I still have no clue what they're talking about. My general impression is that little birds tend not to be very reliable, or give these things a lot of thought.
On the other hand, any time The Sun or News of the World quotes a "source close to the palace", I sit right up and pay attention...
I'll stick to .38+p, just because, even if the FBI sees it, I don't see enough difference to justify the expense of replacing every handgun I own... one wonders where THEY get the money....
Carl Levitian
member
Heck, I never abandoned the .38 special. But I'm and old fart, and hate to change anything. Especially when I'm all set up for reloading and have a collection of police issued model 10's from PD's all over he place. 
Going away from the 9mm was a knee jerk reaction in the first place. While 9mm ammo today is better than ever, so is 45 and everything else. If you go back and compare actual testing the 9mm has ALWAYS performed as good or better than anything else, including 45 when comparable ammo was used. The best 9mm loads in 1986 were just as effective as the best 45 and 357 loads in 1986. If you compare 9mm military ball ammo to 45 military ball ammo you will not find a single test showing one is any better than the other.
Deaf Smith
Member
The FBI could go to 2.7mm Kolibri for all I care.
I've got them in most of the popular rounds and really who cares if they go to a 15 shot 9mm or 13 shot .40 or whatever.
Deaf
I've got them in most of the popular rounds and really who cares if they go to a 15 shot 9mm or 13 shot .40 or whatever.
Deaf
The Man With No Name
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1. What the FBI does has no effect on me since they don't issue me guns nor do they pay for any of mine.
2. Personally I still find the 9mm lacking. The round I have alot of experience with is the Winchester Ranger T-Series 127 grain JHP +P+. Is their a load that will dramatically outperform this in 9mm? It's not like I have a choice since it is my department issued duty load but I am curious if I am wrong in thinking the 9mm is still a round that only makes sense if it is the most round you can handle.
3. With that said I feel the round that I recommend is the most powerful round a person can handle accurately. Sure that little .380 is easy kicking but if you knew today with 100% certainty that you were going to be involved in a life or death situation that required you to defend yourself using lethal force would you carry that .380 or would you carry a 9mm, .40, or .45 that day?
4. Arguments for increased ammo capacity make no sense to me. Carry reloads if you need more than 5.
5. Arguments for ammo costs make a bit more sense. I can agree that if one allows you to afford more ammo and thus become a better shooter then that should factor into the equation but at the same time I feel 99% of the people trying to become better shooters would benefit more from lots of dry fire practice which is essentially free (other than the cost of snap caps if you need them).
6. Yes sometimes I compromise. I have a Ruger LCR now and at times when I'm just in the yard feeding the birds, getting the mail, and other such things at home I often just stick it in my pocket. When I leave the house I am alternating now between a Ruger New Vaquero in .45acp or an Uberti Cattleman in .45 Long Colt. My duty weapon is a Glock 17 and between it and my two more powerful single action revolvers the Glock is in last place if I was going to go somewhere and really though I might be in a situation where I had to shoot at another human to defend myself or others. Sure a 9mm can get the job done and nothing will make up for poor shot placement. I find my single actions more accurate and this is from someone that has been using Glocks since they were originally released in this country and is consistently number 1 or 2 in annual qualification.
2. Personally I still find the 9mm lacking. The round I have alot of experience with is the Winchester Ranger T-Series 127 grain JHP +P+. Is their a load that will dramatically outperform this in 9mm? It's not like I have a choice since it is my department issued duty load but I am curious if I am wrong in thinking the 9mm is still a round that only makes sense if it is the most round you can handle.
3. With that said I feel the round that I recommend is the most powerful round a person can handle accurately. Sure that little .380 is easy kicking but if you knew today with 100% certainty that you were going to be involved in a life or death situation that required you to defend yourself using lethal force would you carry that .380 or would you carry a 9mm, .40, or .45 that day?
4. Arguments for increased ammo capacity make no sense to me. Carry reloads if you need more than 5.
5. Arguments for ammo costs make a bit more sense. I can agree that if one allows you to afford more ammo and thus become a better shooter then that should factor into the equation but at the same time I feel 99% of the people trying to become better shooters would benefit more from lots of dry fire practice which is essentially free (other than the cost of snap caps if you need them).
6. Yes sometimes I compromise. I have a Ruger LCR now and at times when I'm just in the yard feeding the birds, getting the mail, and other such things at home I often just stick it in my pocket. When I leave the house I am alternating now between a Ruger New Vaquero in .45acp or an Uberti Cattleman in .45 Long Colt. My duty weapon is a Glock 17 and between it and my two more powerful single action revolvers the Glock is in last place if I was going to go somewhere and really though I might be in a situation where I had to shoot at another human to defend myself or others. Sure a 9mm can get the job done and nothing will make up for poor shot placement. I find my single actions more accurate and this is from someone that has been using Glocks since they were originally released in this country and is consistently number 1 or 2 in annual qualification.
wow6599
Member
Yep......1986
jfrey
Member
Ha Ha, I beat 'em to it. I already carry a 9mm, or a.380, or a .45 depending on my mood. We're paying for their ammo so since the 9mm is cheaper to shoot, we taxpayers must be getting a bargain.......Right!
scaatylobo
Member
@ the man with no name
I guess you have been in many shoot outs and dont miss or place a bad shot on a perp.
that being the case,your reason to carry a gun that is too slow to reload under combat makes sense to me.
If that is not the case,I have faced multiple targets and the click that results from running out of ammo is one that creates a HUGE pucker factor.
I prefer to have the option for many followup shots and a fast reload [ spare magazines ].
To each their own,I guess I dont get as preachy as you and I dont believe my way is the only way.
I still carry a BUG as I dont want my life to depend on one simple tool that could fail at THE worst time.
That BUG might be a 5 shot,but even that has a reload in the event I live that long.
I guess you have been in many shoot outs and dont miss or place a bad shot on a perp.
that being the case,your reason to carry a gun that is too slow to reload under combat makes sense to me.
If that is not the case,I have faced multiple targets and the click that results from running out of ammo is one that creates a HUGE pucker factor.
I prefer to have the option for many followup shots and a fast reload [ spare magazines ].
To each their own,I guess I dont get as preachy as you and I dont believe my way is the only way.
I still carry a BUG as I dont want my life to depend on one simple tool that could fail at THE worst time.
That BUG might be a 5 shot,but even that has a reload in the event I live that long.
The Man With No Name
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5 rounds is what I figure I need to deal with any given situation. I have no problem placing shots. Keep in mind I'm talking about off duty carry. I don't walk around off duty anticipating a gun fight. I just want a tool handy to defend me while I try to make it back to the car if needed. On duty I carry a Glock, 2 spare mags on my duty belt, and my BUG's are a rifle and shotgun in the trunk. I dont' feel my way is the only way but I also know that a single action is only slow to reload if you don't know how or have never practiced reloading. What tools I have meet my needs. My needs may not be yours. I doubt the average citizen is ever going to be in a running gun battle with multiple assailants either though. If life is that bad for them then they really need to just keep rifles and shotguns nearby and once again just enough gun on the hip to get them to the REAL guns.
I'm not an expert but I do know what I see and .45 Long Colt penetrates better than +P+ 9mm when bones are struck, when barriers are present, and no I don't feel to the point that overpenetration is an issue.
LawScholar
Member
That's totally fine if the FBI goes 9mm.
However, to those folks predicting the .40 is just going to dry up - keep dreamin', it's here to stay. It's very very popular, at least in my neck of the woods.
However, to those folks predicting the .40 is just going to dry up - keep dreamin', it's here to stay. It's very very popular, at least in my neck of the woods.
leadcounsel
member
I also don't particularly care what the FBI chooses.
I also do not see the .40 'drying up.' It's IMO the 'best' all around handgun caliber for self defense. Energy, expansion, capacity, penetration, would cavity, speed, cost... it's the best compromise of all of the handgun rounds. That said, I would feel comfortable with a 9x19 or a .45... just not MY preference. But the .40 is here to stay. It has a huge following and isn't a niche caliber. Heck I hope the FBI dumps their unwanted .40 ammo on the market for cheap!
Having been in Gov't work, there are A LOT of considerations about guns/ammo, etc that have less bearing on performance than you'd think. For instance, there are much better guns and calibers and even ammunition than what we use in the Army, but we still use them... politics, money, training, size of the users, etc.
I know nothing about the change details for the FBI, but I would be shocked if it didn't have to do with budgets and smaller agents (females, more feminine males, etc.). Let's not forget that FBI agents are typically accountants, linguists, etc. They aren't typically tactical Joes fresh out of 11B school... This probably has to do with budgets, maybe a sweet HUGE deal (billions of bullets) on 9x19 contract, with free guns, who knows...
Finally, a 9x19 for a field agent with a parnter is adequate. They have immediate backup, longguns in the car, and if they were purposefully going into a dangerous situation, they'd certainly have heavier firepower.
The decision making of an individual home defender or CCW'er - with no backup and possibly no longgun, is an entirely different evaluation.
I also do not see the .40 'drying up.' It's IMO the 'best' all around handgun caliber for self defense. Energy, expansion, capacity, penetration, would cavity, speed, cost... it's the best compromise of all of the handgun rounds. That said, I would feel comfortable with a 9x19 or a .45... just not MY preference. But the .40 is here to stay. It has a huge following and isn't a niche caliber. Heck I hope the FBI dumps their unwanted .40 ammo on the market for cheap!
Having been in Gov't work, there are A LOT of considerations about guns/ammo, etc that have less bearing on performance than you'd think. For instance, there are much better guns and calibers and even ammunition than what we use in the Army, but we still use them... politics, money, training, size of the users, etc.
I know nothing about the change details for the FBI, but I would be shocked if it didn't have to do with budgets and smaller agents (females, more feminine males, etc.). Let's not forget that FBI agents are typically accountants, linguists, etc. They aren't typically tactical Joes fresh out of 11B school... This probably has to do with budgets, maybe a sweet HUGE deal (billions of bullets) on 9x19 contract, with free guns, who knows...
Finally, a 9x19 for a field agent with a parnter is adequate. They have immediate backup, longguns in the car, and if they were purposefully going into a dangerous situation, they'd certainly have heavier firepower.
The decision making of an individual home defender or CCW'er - with no backup and possibly no longgun, is an entirely different evaluation.
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Gryffydd
Member
A single action revolver?
I don't care how much you practice it will never ever be anything but slow compared to an auto. Especially if you take that same practice and apply it to reloading an auto. That's not to mention that it's a much more delicate process that requires more fine motor control.
Detritus
Member
you may be right, tell me this though. Realisticly and honestly how much of the 40's popularity is because of it's prevelence and use in Law Enforecement?
Now, in the US there is a disporportionate amount of weight given by local and state agencies to what is being issued/used by the FBI with regard to firearms/ammo decisions. And I'm pretty sure that if the FBI reverts back to the 9mm, many is the agency that will also revert at the earliest convenience, sheerly on the basis of perceived budget issues, much less the, again likely perceived only, ease of training issue.
without LE sales the number of new guns produced in .40S&W will drop off and likely will drop off sharply, as the likes of Glock and SIG streamline to make even more 9's.
I never said the death would be immediate or complete. But without FBI issue of the 40 to fuel the idea that 9mm is somehow inadequate, issue to/use by LE of the .40 will decline. Then as that use declines and the gun makers switch to 9mm (or whatever) to fulfill the LE market overall "civilian" interest in the round will decline as well.
Now to cover why i said what i said in my first post here. I was answering to the idea that 40s&w would be the next 38super. I don't beleive that the .40S&W will do what the 38super has done. I.e. survive 80 years past it's perceived obsolescence in Law Enforecement mainly on it's utility in a single sport. without IPSC 38Super would be a footnote, heck outside of IPSC and "1911 People" how well known is the Super?
Now all that said, do i think that .40 will decline greatly if and when the Feds drop it, Yes
do i think it will disapear? No. and i think that its decline will occur over a moderately extended time, say 15-20 years. In otherwords I think that in time the .40 will start to go the way of the 10mm Auto.
Sheepdog1968
Member
The money spend on switching over would be better spent IMO on more firearms training with the current weapons.
GrayGore
Member
I don't disagree that better 9mm rounds are available now than in the past. But if .40 was better than 9mm back then, why is 9mm better now, when the improvements to 9mm are also completely available for .40? Wouldn't they improve in parallel, so that .40 retains an edge?
Okiegunner
Member
I am kinda old, so what I say may be a bit biased.
Initially we had to transition from wheelguns to automatics. Let me tell you..."Good Lord"...much resistance. Lots of old fossils just refused.
After many years of carry, the 9mm seemed like the pistol round that should be carried.
Fast forward: I think that I probably have one of the first police issue carry Poly Sigs. It is a Sig 2340. In my opinion, great pistol. Bang, bang, bang. Guys know what I mean? You can absolutely depend on it!
However, the .40 snap is the .40 snap. I am a pretty big guy. I feel like I can handle snap, push-back, and recoil fairly well.
Sorry to those I might offend...I much prefer the 9mm. I like a nice Beretta 92 platform with 20 round Mec-Gar magazines.
I have never had this combo fail for me. Cleaned and lubed (OK, 92 likes to be a bit wet), anyhow, whatever. I realize that there are more modern designs. Some, if not most might work better for you younger guys.
Just kinda thought, might share my thoughts
Initially we had to transition from wheelguns to automatics. Let me tell you..."Good Lord"...much resistance. Lots of old fossils just refused.
After many years of carry, the 9mm seemed like the pistol round that should be carried.
Fast forward: I think that I probably have one of the first police issue carry Poly Sigs. It is a Sig 2340. In my opinion, great pistol. Bang, bang, bang. Guys know what I mean? You can absolutely depend on it!
However, the .40 snap is the .40 snap. I am a pretty big guy. I feel like I can handle snap, push-back, and recoil fairly well.
Sorry to those I might offend...I much prefer the 9mm. I like a nice Beretta 92 platform with 20 round Mec-Gar magazines.
I have never had this combo fail for me. Cleaned and lubed (OK, 92 likes to be a bit wet), anyhow, whatever. I realize that there are more modern designs. Some, if not most might work better for you younger guys.
Just kinda thought, might share my thoughts
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