9mm 115g Berry's plated bullets.....

[MrOldLude]

The plating on Speer Gold Dots is about twice the thickness of Berry's, Ranier, etc., so they can be driven faster.

As for testing the limits of Berry's plated bullets, yes I have. When the Berry's 124 grain FP bullet is driven over 1,450 fps in a 357 Sig, they will tumble badly. And if you're not careful, they will hit the shade support rod on the left side of your chronograph...........

Hope this helps.

Fred

I did not know this. Thank you.

A quick search shows that GDHP's have about 0.035" of plating versus 0.080 to 0.010 for Berry's. Interesting. So yeah, you've found 1400 FPS is clearly too much. Was that the point that the round went unstable for you? Or were you seeing signs instability below that?

My understanding is for .45, you can drive the slugs at full power, as the speeds aren't enough to wreck the plating. For me, I was wondering if they could survive in the 1100 to 1200 range in a glock.

edit:

I guess I could have searched:

The reason we ask everyone to start with a mid-range jacketed or lead load data is:

Hard Cast Data - Plated bullets have the same pressure curve as typical linotype hard cast bullet. The same powder charge with a hardcast or plated vs. a jacketed will result in lower velocities for the jacketed. This is because the jacket is a work hardened surface that has a greater resistance in the barrel.

Jacketed Midrange Data - Is a good starting point to work up data for since most of the shooters already have data for jacketed.

We also make a statement to keep the bullets loaded to no more than the 1200FPS mark. I have run our 155gr .40 bullets in my Tanfoglio Limited 10mm at velocities beyond that with great results. We just have to draw a line in the sand since people seem to push the drawn limits.

We have constantly improved our bullet profiles and have added plating as we have gone along over the past 8 or so years. I am hoping to finish testing in our tunnel to see if we can publish a greater fps with our current generation of bullets. As it is there are only a handful of commercially available calibers that would push any pistol bullet beyond 1300fps, and those are long barreled hunting pistols that would not use a plated bullet anyway.

So technically, I could also probably go full loads for 115 gr 9mm if I so desired. For whatever it's worth.

 

[ReloaderFred]

The 1,450 fps load was with Power Pistol powder in the 357 Sig. It's a full power load, and the plating/soft lead core couldn't stand up to the velocity, which I pretty much knew it wouldn't before I loaded it. It was purely an experiment on my part to see what the limits of the 9mm bullet is, and I found it. I run my normal Berry's 124 gr. FP plated bullets at just over 1,300 fps in the 357 Sig (Springfield XD and Witness with conversion barrel) with no problems whatsoever.

In 9x19 you can just load them up and not worry about it with both the 115 gr. Berry's, and the 124 gr. Berry's bullets. In .45 acp, my favorite bullet is the Berry's 185 gr. Hollow Base Round Nose (HBRN). I load them with a healthy dose of Ramshot True Blue (from Ramshot's data). They work in all my .45's and in .45 acp there is no way you're going to exceed the limits for the plated bullet.

Your quote is by Jay Phillips, who did the load development for the 9x25 Dillon round when he worked for Dillon. He was kind enough to send me all his notes on the work he did, plus some work by others. He's a very knowledgeable individual and I was glad to see him back at Berry's Mfg. I look forward to talking to him again at the upcoming SHOT Show in January.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[Berry's MFG]

ReloaderFred

Good to hear from you! Sometimes I just sit back and read instead of chiming in. That 1200 fps mark is a general rule on the pistol calibers. Occasionally we make a run of prototype bullets, some times we make them for a special run to fulfill a contract with an OEM. I might have some proto's in the 124gr RN hollow base with a thicker plate that should take care of the issues you guys are seeing in trying to punish our standard bullets. You got that 9x25 built yet?

 

[ReloaderFred]

Hi Jay,

Yes, I built the 9x25 on a Witness 10mm slide. I used a .38 Super barrel and rechambered it myself. The AA-7 loads proved to be the best in the 4.5" barrel.

When I drove the 124 gr. FP plated bullet to 1,450 fps in the 357 Sig, I knew it was way beyond the limits for the bullet, but I just had to prove it to myself.

Bring some of the prototypes of the 124 gr. HB bullet to the SHOT Show so I can give them a try. I'll be placing an order with you then, anyway.

See you there,
Fred

 

[reebis]

My favorite recipe for 115g. Berry plated bullets is 4.2g. Bullseye with an OAL of 1.135. I have literally made thousands of these for my Beretta M9 and Beretta Storm. They eat 'em like candy!

Hello, Is this for the round noses? I'm a newb and trying to figure out the OAL. I have the Berry's 9mm jacketed round nose 115gr. Using Hodgdon titegroup.

Also my once fired case lengths are shorter than the "trim to length" is that okay? I was told you typically don't have to trim pistol rounds. Is this true?

 

[LiveLife]

reebis, welcome to THR, talk about resurrecting an old thread.

Berry's MFG suggests 1.130" for their plated RN in their reloading chart and that length should work in most barrels - http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=223498&stc=1&d=1474072112

Walkalong has an excellent thread on determining max/working OAL if you want to determine the longest working OAL for your barrel - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...l-with-your-bullet.506678/page-2#post-8864541

As to case length, measure them after you resize them and if they are still short to head space on the case mouth, don't worry as they will head space off the extractor. I no longer bother checking resized 9mm or other straight wall auto pistol cases for case length.

 

[reebis]

reebis, welcome to THR, talk about resurrecting an old thread.

Berry's MFG suggests 1.130" for their plated RN in their reloading chart and that length should work in most barrels - http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=223498&stc=1&d=1474072112

Walkalong has an excellent thread on determining max/working OAL if you want to determine the longest working OAL for your barrel - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...l-with-your-bullet.506678/page-2#post-8864541

As to case length, measure them after you resize them and if they are still short to head space on the case mouth, don't worry as they will head space off the extractor. I no longer bother checking resized 9mm or other straight wall auto pistol cases for case length.

I found the OAL at Berry's site. It's 1.130. I got it to that OAL, fits in my magazine and chambers but with that test it's definitely hitting the rifling. Since the bullet's aren't the same size one's even slighsly shorter than the OAL and still doesn't turn in the chamber like the manufactured hallow point did.

Thanks for your reply. I seems to have problems with the bullets not being uniform so it ends up changing my OAL from one cartridge to another. How do I fix this? Also how much shorter can a cartridge be than the OAL?

I was reviewing that link you gave me a tried to find the OAL Of my pistol but not quite clear on how they're getting the bullet to stay in the cartridge without belling the case and if you do it won't chamber. Are they seating it? Or are they setting it in then just taking away the .015 to find out it's max OAL? I'm having a hell of a time trying to get my sea legs and I'm frustrated .

I'm having the same problem with the OAL on my 223. I have spitzer bullets and the bullet sizes vary .008

 

[LiveLife]

not quite clear on how they're getting the bullet to stay in the cartridge without belling the case and if you do it won't chamber. Are they seating it? Or are they setting it in then just taking away the .015 to find out it's max OAL? I'm having a hell of a time trying to get my sea legs and I'm frustrated

When I am determining OAL for a new bullet, I will make a dummy round (no powder/no primer) using SAAMI max length (1.169") and add .022" to the diameter of bullet for taper crimp amount (so for .355" diameter bullet, use .377").

I usually decrease the OAL by .005" increment until the loaded round drops in the chamber freely and spin without hitting the rifling. Since 1.130" is hitting the rifling, I would try 1.125", 1.120" etc. until the dummy round passed the barrel. Since bullet nose shape/length vary slightly, I usually load several dummy rounds to determine the max/working OAL.

 

[Dudedog]

700-X is a SHotgun/Pistol Powder not a rifle powder.
Hodgdon lists,
115 GR. LRN IMR 700-X .356" 1.100" 3.3 986 25,200 PSI 3.7 1082 31,900 PSI
115 GR. SPR GDHP IMR 700-X .355" 1.125" 3.9 991 26,000 PSI 4.2 1091 31,900 PSI
Plated fall in the middle (usually between jacketed and lead) Note longer OAL on the GDHP load.
I would guess you probably want around 3.5 -3.76 with the plated, but work up from 3.3. 700-X has large flakes and meters poorly.
Are you weighing all the charges?

Loading to a shorter OAL will help with part of your problem but as you go shorter you MUST be aware that the shorter OAL increases pressure so start over at the start lightest start charge and work up. BDS is giving you great advice on how to setup your OAL.

I have a few different 9mm and some will allow a longer OAL than others. I generally load for the one with the shortest OAL that way my ammo will work in all of them.

If you are using a powder measure and just starting out I would recommend you get a powder that meters better even though you still need to weigh all the charges until you have been reloading for a while.
BDS has posted pictures of powder.
In general the smaller the flake/rod/ball/grain is the better it will meter.
One thing to watch out for when you are starting out is that some powders will overflow the case if you double charge and some won't. (VMD, how dense is the powder, higher VMD = more space in the case. 700-X has a VMD of .13 (fluffy) Some other Titegoup for example are more dense. Titegroup VMD .84. So the same charge weight charge of 700-X takes about 50% more space in the case than TItegourp.
So....the thing to watch out for is most likely a double charge of 700-X will overflow and you will notice where some other powders a double charge (which is a very bad thing) will not overflow.
Just something to be aware of when selecting a powder.

 

[rskent]

I have the Berry's 9mm jacketed round nose 115gr. Using Hodgdon titegroup.

Welcome

I use a lot of Berry’s or Rainer 115 grain plated bullets in my Glocks. My standard load is 4.5 grains of Tightgroup.

 

[Walkalong]

Walkalong has an excellent thread on determining max/working OAL if you want to determine the longest working OAL for your barrel - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...l-with-your-bullet.506678/page-2#post-8864541

I need to fix the thread. When it came over to the new software it messed up the placement of the pics in the post. I did fix the pics in the incipient case case separation thread, but it is a pain.

 

[Robert Ramos]

I need to fix the thread. When it came over to the new software it messed up the placement of the pics in the post. I did fix the pics in the incipient case case separation thread, but it is a pain.

Walkalong : Could you pm me a copy when you fix the thread or point me to where to find it . I found it so informative had it saved but somehow lost it during the changeover. You, BDS ,Dudedog and the late RC , and so many others Have helped me so much.Thank You very much

 

[Walkalong]

Will do.

 

[reebis]

When I am determining OAL for a new bullet, I will make a dummy round (no powder/no primer) using SAAMI max length (1.169") and add .022" to the diameter of bullet for taper crimp amount (so for .355" diameter bullet, use .377").

I usually decrease the OAL by .005" increment until the loaded round drops in the chamber freely and spin without hitting the rifling. Since 1.130" is hitting the rifling, I would try 1.125", 1.120" etc. until the dummy round passed the barrel. Since bullet nose shape/length vary slightly, I usually load several dummy rounds to determine the max/working OAL.

Thanks. So the books/bullets recommended OAL is just something a good starting point and something to never pass? It seems to me that this is a guideline that may/may not work.

So do you typically start at the recommended OAL then go from there. So if it's shorter than the recommended OAL it's okay?

Your process:

Find the OAL for dummy round #1 until it passes the barrel test. Go to the next, it hits the rifling, back it off until is passes. You do this 5 or more times? That's what's really getting me. The inconsistency of the bullet nose shapes/sizes. Then I got my dummy round to 1.130, did the barrel test, hits the rifling. So the guide is really confusing me. It doesn't have any explanation either. If it weren't for this forum I'd be completely lost.

Since it chamber and ejects fine, that's my working OAL. But to find my max OAL is for the headspace to hit the end of the chamber and for the bullet to freely spin smoothly without hitting the rifling.

Since I have a second 9mm pistol, once I find my OAL, will this differ?

 

[LiveLife]

Yes, published OAL/COL is the length that was used with the test barrel fixture which is usually single shot and not fed from a magazine. But semi-auto pistols we reload for must reliably feed/chamber from the magazine so we use the barrel to determine the max OAL and function test to determine the working OAL.

Most factory barrels have longer leade/freebore that will allow longer than SAAMI max length for FMJ/round nose profile bullets to pass the barrel test but some barrels (especially aftermarket/match grade) require shorter than SAAMI length, especially with HP/FP nose profile bullets.

Once you determine the max OAL with the barrel (rounds will freely fall in the chamber with a "plonk" and spin without hitting the rifling), then next determine the working OAL that will work with your pistol/magazine. To determine the working OAL, load the dummy rounds in the magazine and feed/chamber the rounds from the magazine without riding the slide (lock the slide back and release the slide). If the max OAL rounds won't reliably feed/chamber, incrementally decrease the length until they do.

 

[reebis]

Yes, published OAL/COL is the length that was used with the test barrel fixture which is usually single shot and not fed from a magazine. But semi-auto pistols we reload for must reliably feed/chamber from the magazine so we use the barrel to determine the max OAL and function test to determine the working OAL.

Most factory barrels have longer leade/freebore that will allow longer than SAAMI max length for FMJ/round nose profile bullets to pass the barrel test but some barrels (especially aftermarket/match grade) require shorter than SAAMI length, especially with HP/FP nose profile bullets.

Once you determine the max OAL with the barrel (rounds will freely fall in the chamber with a "plonk" and spin without hitting the rifling), then next determine the working OAL that will work with your pistol/magazine. To determine the working OAL, load the dummy rounds in the magazine and feed/chamber the rounds from the magazine without riding the slide (lock the slide back and release the slide). If the max OAL rounds won't reliably feed/chamber, incrementally decrease the length until they do.

Sorry been busy. Thanks so much for the info. I will review, test, and get back you when with results. Have a great Thanksgiving fellow patriots!

 

[reebis]

For my Taurus ME and Keltec subcompact 9mm's. 1.130 is too long and contacts the rifling. Even at 1.128 it's close but still rotates in the chamber, not as free as the shorter ones but still rotates. Is this okay?

I would think I have my Max OAL discovered then I'd find out that I'm over five or six more thousandths over 1.130 after pumping out ten rounds and validating lengths. So then I lowered my seating die quite a bit. Did ten more and the range went from 1.116.5 - 1.128. That's quite the difference. Is this too short? Is there a minimal OAL? I think it's exactly the seating depth I need to make this work with the my pistols and bullet length variance.

I measured several more and the average was around 1.123 - 1.124. Would have some longer lengths like the 1.126/1.128 and 1.118 etc.

 

[LiveLife]

9mm ... Is there a minimal OAL?

Talk about late reply.

SAAMI specification lists 9mm OAL minimum as 1.000" - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/plunk-every-round.826550/page-2#post-10648125

 

[reebis]

Thanks for the help!

 

[LiveLife]

You are very welcome.

 

[Col. Cornelius]

I have loaded 9mm winchester 115gr JHP at 4.3gr Titegroup and 4.4gr Titegroup at COAL of 1.135" and also tried COAL of 1.085"

All for trial loads worked good with velocites from 1,049fps to 1,156 fps

 

[LiveLife]

Welcome to THR Col. Cornelius.

Read your previous post and I also like Red Dot and use 4.1-4.2 gr Red Dot/Promo for 115 gr 9mm plated RN bullets loaded to 1.130".