9mm 115gr lead load: no data?

[beatledog7]

Recently I tried and liked .400" Hunters Supply PHP lead bullets from Midway, so I decided to try the 9mm version.

Seems there is no load data out there for 115gr lead bullets for 9mm. Based on what I read here and Lyman 49th (for a 120gr lead bullet), I'm trying the following:

115gr lead PHP, .356"
Remington 1-1/2 primer
PMC brass
3.9gr Bullseye
OAL 1.078"

Should cycle my CZ75 just fine and be midrange in power terms.

Thoughts?

 

[Josh45]

Have you checked if these rounds fall into your barrel with 'plunk in' and a 'plunk out '? Also, The 120 GR data is OK. I have done that before with .45 ACP. I used 225 GR data for a 230 GR bullet.

Shouldn't have any problems there. If there is a chance in componets, I would suggest starting light and working up

 

[LiveLife]

Seems there is no load data out there for 115gr lead bullets for 9mm

+1 to what Josh45 posted using heavier bullet load data for lighter bullet. BTW, 2004 Alliant load data shows 4.9 gr of Bullseye as max for 125 gr Lead bullet at 1.15" OAL (1165 fps/32,100 PSI).


Here are some more Hodgdon load data for 115 gr lead bullets:

115 gr LRN Clays .356" 1.100" Start 3.0 gr (954 fps) 25,300 CUP - Max 3.4 gr (1039 fps) 31,000 CUP

115 gr LRN 700-X .356" 1.100" Start 3.3 gr (986 fps) 25,200 PSI - Max 3.7 gr (1082 fps) 31,900 PSI

115 gr LRN Titegroup .356" 1.100" Start 3.9 gr (1075 fps) 25,800 CUP - Max 4.3 gr (1151 fps) 30,500 CUP

115 gr LRN IMR PB .356" 1.100" Start 3.3 gr (974 fps) 26,900 PSI - Max 3.7 gr (1061 fps) 32,500 PSI

115 gr LRN W231/HP-38 .356" 1.100" Start 4.3 gr (1079 fps) 28,400 CUP - Max 4.8 gr (1135 fps) 32,000 CUP

115 gr LRN Universal .356" 1.100" Start 4.0 gr (1034 fps) 24,400 CUP - Max 4.5 gr (1124 fps) 31,300 CUP

115 gr LRN 800-X .356" 1.100" Start 4.5 gr (1004 fps) 24,000 PSI - Max 5.3 gr (1128 fps) 28,200 PSI

115 gr LRN SR 4756 .356" 1.100" Start 4.5 gr (1027 fps) 25,000 PSI - Max 5.2 gr (1145 fps) 31,600 PSI

115 gr LRN HS-6 .356" 1.100" Start 6.4 gr (1117 fps) 27,900 CUP - Max 6.9 gr (1170 fps) 32,200 CUP

115 gr LRN AutoComp .356" 1.100" Start 4.4 gr (1002 fps) 24,800 PSI - Max 5.1 gr (1145 fps) 31,500 PSI

115 gr LRN Longshot .356" 1.100" Start 5.0 gr (1032 fps) 20,200 CUP - Max 6.0 gr (1166 fps) 27,300 CUP

 

[LiveLife]

Here's Accurate load data (version 3.5):

 

[beatledog7]

I loaded a handful then tried the barrel, and they will not chamber. Though the cases measure .002 within spec diameter, the shape of the bullet ogive is stopping them from being fully inserted in the chamber. Seating to the 90gr depth of 1.045 still didn't gain enough space in the barrel. Still about 1/16th" from chambering fully.

The answer seems to be either:

Don't load these bullets for my CZ, or drop the powder charge to maybe 2.5gr BE and seat deeper.

I'm obviously not getting a warm fuzzy messing with the charge and seating depth.

I'll try to contact the manufacturer and see what they suggest.

 

[LiveLife]

the shape of the bullet ogive is stopping them from being fully inserted in the chamber.

If the bullet "ogive" is indeed hitting the start of rifling, you'll need to reduce the OAL so the finished round falls into the chamber freely with a "plonk".

Seating to the ... depth of 1.045 still didn't gain enough space in the barrel. Still about 1/16th" from chambering fully.

1.045" OAL is quite short for 115 gr RN (look at the 115 gr FMJ picture below). I load MBC 125 gr SWC to 1.045" OAL but that's a SWC nose profile. Even the 125 gr RN with rounder nose is loaded to 1.080"-1.100" OAL.

You are certain the bullet is hitting the start of rifling and not the taper crimp keeping the finished round from chambering fully? (BTW, taper crimp for .356" diameter bullet should be around .376")

 

[popper]

I had similar problem with the 9mm, see this - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=617853. Your chamber is tapered, the expander die makes the case straight walled. You can just seat deeper and reduce the powder charge or try what I did (above). The taper crimp may reduce the bullet dia, but only at the edge of the neck. Your bullets are prety hard and won't get re-sized when fired.

 

[john16443]

If the bullet "ogive" is indeed hitting the start of rifling, you'll need to reduce the OAL so the finished round falls into the chamber freely with a "plonk".


1.045" OAL is quite short for 115 gr RN (look at the 115 gr FMJ picture below). I load MBC 125 gr SWC to 1.045" OAL but that's a SWC nose profile. Even the 125 gr RN with rounder nose is loaded to 1.080"-1.100" OAL.

You are certain the bullet is hitting the start of rifling and not the taper crimp keeping the finished round from chambering fully? (BTW, taper crimp for .356" diameter bullet should be around .376")

bds - your 125 grain MBC SWC is clearly set deeper in the case than the others. Do you adjust your powder charge at all for this bullet compared to the Berry's 124RN using the same powder?

 

[LiveLife]

Yes. With any new bullet/powder, I usually conduct full-range work up from start to near max load data with .1-.2 gr increments of powder charge. If I am using shorter OAL than published or if my bullet base is seated much deeper (like the MBC 125 gr SWC bullet), I will begin my work up slightly below the start charge by .2-.3 gr. If I am getting good slide cycling/case extraction with nice toss of spent casing behind me and good accuracy, I may stop at mid-to-high range load data (which was the case with the MBC SWC bullet).

Even with the start charge of my work up (I began with 3.6 gr of W231/HP-38); I was getting clean burn (almost no lube smoke to indicate quick bullet-to-barrel seal), reliable slide cycling, case extraction and good accuracy. The trend continued with 3.8, 4.0 and 4.2 gr charges.

As to Berry's 124 gr plated RN bullet, since it was loaded at longer 1.135" OAL, I did my work up to lead load data max of 4.4 gr of W231/HP-38 and went higher to 4.6 gr as published jacketed load data for 125 gr FMJ was 4.8 gr at shorter 1.090" OAL.

All the loads were tested using G17 (factory barrel) and G22/G27 (Lone Wolf conversion barrels) so your results may vary depending on your pistols/barrels.

 

[beatledog7]

Taper crimped to .376, and rounds at OAL 1.078 pass my Lyman gauge but still fall about 1/16th short of chambering in the CZ barrel.

Seems to me it's gotta be hitting the lands. So I took a sized but unprimed 9mm case and seated one of these deeper until it would chamber in the CZ barrel. Tapered to .376 and seated to OAL 1.001, and it goes.

I've never heard of a bullet needing to be seated this deeply in 9mm. Clearly the charge would have to be minuscule to avoid overpressure.

I've emailed the manufacturer to see what can be done.

 

[rcmodel]

I've emailed the manufacturer to see what can be done.

What can be done is to color the bullet & case with a black magic marker and press it into the chamber all the way. Then knock it back out with a rod.

Those shiny rifling marks or anything else not black is your problem.

The cure is to seat them deeper until they don't hit the rifling leade and drop out of the chamber by their own weight.
Unless the shiny marks are on the case, in which case you need a little more taper crimp.

I would not be terribly concerned about seating deeper with 3.9 Bullseye, however you could reduce it a little and work back up if you want too.
Older Alliant data says 4.9 Bullseye is max with a lead 125, so a 10% reduction starting load would be 4.4.

rc

 

[LiveLife]

+1 to rcmodel's post.

Passing the gauge would indicate your external case dimensions were within specs but not chambering fully would indicate your bullet may be hitting the rifling due to the ogive of the bullet nose.

Try what rcmodel posted and my guess would be that your bullet nose is hitting the rifling.

 

[LiveLife]

I took a sized but unprimed 9mm case and seated one of these deeper until it would chamber in the CZ barrel. Tapered to .376 and seated to OAL 1.001, and it goes.

Wow, that's short.

Can you post a picture of the round with 1.001" OAL?

 

[Striker Fired]

I'm at 1.108 with my 125rns for Beretta's and a Storm Lake barrel in a XDM.

 

[beatledog7]

It's hitting the rifling

Red arrow indicates where marker was rubbed off the longer round. Answer is clear now. Unlikely that any crimp is actually needed.

 

[LiveLife]

For some reason I was thinking RN. For that FP/PHP bullet, I would use the OAL that feeds and chambers well from the magazine.

Have you function checked by feeding the round from the magazine?

 

[beatledog7]

It chambers from the mag and ejects cleanly. But I only made one that length; that's purely a manual test of just one round. Repeated several times.

 

[john16443]

Red arrow indicates where marker was rubbed off the longer round. Answer is clear now. Unlikely that any crimp is actually needed.

Yes, your photo does clear things up a bit. Your initial insertion depth on the right appears to barely cover the lube, and you are still well short of the crimp groove provided for these bullets. As a minimum I believe they should be inserted to at least the bottom of the crimp groove.

So far as applying any crimp, you will still have to remove whatever flare or bell you applied when you expanded the case before seating the bullet. No more crimp required than straightening out the wall of the case, otherwise you may still have chambering and feeding issues if you don't remove the flare.

 

[beatledog7]

John16443,

I've never had to crimp a 9mm round before these, and I suspect these don't really need it either. Hunter's Supply website says these should be set to 1.050" OAL, but that'll never work in my CZ.

 

[rcmodel]

I've never had to crimp a 9mm round before

Well, I bet you did, and just didn't know it.

If you expand & bell the case enough to get a bullet started in it, you most certainly taper-crimped it enough in the seating & crimp die to straighten the bell out again.

rc

 

[beatledog7]

Well yes, but I did it by seating the bullet, with the bullet itself serving to flatten the flare. I've never had to take the deliberate step of de-flaring to get 9mm rounds to chamber easily. That is to say, I've never turned the die in to achieve a crimp/taper. The shank of the bullet has expanded the case wall as much as I flared it, thus effectively removing the flare.

 

[Josh45]

I guess it would be OK to assume your CZ has a tight barrel then. I would suggest trying the taper crimp on it and seeing how that would fare for you. I usually do the 9mm bullet seating and taper crimp in the same die and have had no problems when I or my brother reloads for his CZ Phantom.

 

[beatledog7]

Taper crimp was of no use in this case. The issue is the shape of the bullet ogive; it is full .356" diameter too close to the nose to be set at the recommended OAL and fit into my barrel.