9mm..."back" on top?

[colorado_handgunner]

not every newbie jumps on the .40/.45 bandwagon at first

Unless they don't really know the difference when they start shooting, like me when I first started. I started with a .40, and now own 2 .40's, a .22 (plinking) and a .380 (which I shoot terribly). The .40 is just fun to shoot, and I like the kick!

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

Quote:
not every newbie jumps on the .40/.45 bandwagon at first

Unless they don't really know the difference when they start shooting, like me when I first started. I started with a .40, and now own 2 .40's, a .22 (plinking) and a .380 (which I shoot terribly). The .40 is just fun to shoot, and I like the kick!
HENCE, saying "not every....". You are one of the others. My wife started with a .45, now she shoots everything well. Slow, but well.

 

[chauncey]

to me, a .40S&W pistol (for carry) with a 9mm BarSto barrel (for practice) is the best of both worlds.

if I could get a barrel to convert 45 to 9mm, I'd go that route, instead. doesn't exist though (except maybe a Sig 250, but I'm not buying that much stuff)

 

[eJack]

hi cap is for law enforcement and mall ninjas

Absolutely. Law enforcement needs hi cap because they have back up. Thank you Mrs Brady. Your logic never fails us.

Back to the OP, I can see the attraction of the Hi-Cap 9mm over the (at least marginally if not much) more effective but lower capacity 45. Living in CA, I get 10 9mm or 10 45. I can shoot 45 faster more accurately than 9mm. My preference should be obvious, but if I didn't have to worry about capacity limits, I would at least own a 9mm with a bottomless magazine and perhaps my preference would change. For now I compensate with spare mags and hope I never need >10 at once.

 

[DFW1911]

Originally Posted by cyclopsshooter View Post
hi cap is for law enforcement and mall ninjas

Absolutely. Law enforcement needs hi cap because they have back up. Thank you Mrs Brady. Your logic never fails us.

Right!

As a CHL there has been 1 time, no more, no less, wherein I wished I had more capacity than the 1911 I was carrying.

I was in an empty liquor store trying to find a decent single malt when we were descended upon by a pack of guys who just reeked of trouble. There's another thread right now about "gut feelings." I say trust them - let instincts do their job.

I picked up on them immediately, as did the store keep. He and I made eye contact because we both felt something was about to go down. I positioned myself toward the rear exit in case I needed to leave in a big d*** hurry.

It seems one of the tell-tale signs of robbing a liquor store it to mill about, shopping for nothing but looking at everything, just waiting for the right time. These guys did precisely that, for about 3 very uncomfortable minutes.

Fortunately the place became very busy, just suddenly, causing the potential bad guys to leave (they bought nothing)...and they had a running car (with driver) who had backed into the spot ready for a sudden departure.

There were 5 guys in that pack. I had 8 rounds in the pistol and 2 magazines on my hip. My positioning was very good, I had an element of concealment and reasonably decent cover. As importantly I had a clear field of vision and could see all of them. The bad news was I would have to fire toward the parking lot, so I could not afford to miss, if you ever can. I wouldn't be laying down suppressing fire if it came to that. You know what I mean.

After those dudes left I talked with the owner. His feelings were that he was "in the process of being robbed" (his words) but my presence and the sudden influx of people discouraged the bad guys. It's kind of interesting, but he said he knows when it's going to happen since he's been robbed so many times. This lead to an entire conversation, the details of which I'll spare you.

That is the only time I wanted more bullets than I had. Don't get me wrong, I had plenty and didn't plan on missing, but who does? My reload sequence is pretty fast, but that's something I would have wanted to delay a bit. In hindsight I would have felt more "comfortable" with a hi-cap 9mm, which would have allowed at least 3 rounds per bad guy from a single magazine. With the 1911 I'd have to reload (possibly) after 8; I'd rather reload after 17.

Oh, this happened so fast that 911 was the last thing on my mind. The need for self preservation dominated my thoughts and relying on a phone just wasn't in the cards for me. The owner did call the police, but I don't know what come of it.

The point of this diatribe is simple: I wanted more firepower. This made me rethink my entire self-defense continuum. I previously based my SD scenarios with 1-1 in mind, not 1 vs. 5. I've changed that based on this incident. No, I don't feel underpowered with a 9mm vs a .45.

Take care,
DFW1911

 

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

And if 4 guys come at me with baseball bats, I would like to have more than 3 rounds in fact, 3 each sounds good.

Why are hypothetical criminals always less armed than the CCWer in these fantasies? Not sure about where you live, but criminals have guns here too.

 

[eJack]

Why are hypothetical criminals always less armed than the CCWer in these fantasies? Not sure about where you live, but criminals have guns here too.

While I do agree that most criminal encounter fantasies share as much reality as girl encounter fantasies, any situation involving four attackers with guns that was even remotely survivable would probably require a high round count.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

National guard soldiers trying to get themselves back to their unit stopped by once to borrow some shotgun & pistol rounds...the soldiers were almost out of ammunition, and they said they had been exchanging a lot of fire.

Not saying I don't believe you, but I'd like to see that story. It seems rather outlandish. And did they not have their M4s?

 

[Glockman17366]

There are no such things as "High Capacity" magazines. There are only standard capacity magazines and those reduced in capacity by an inept, corrupt bunch of morons who think they are important.

 

[rightside]

ou know, for a nation of people the very nearly went into economic meltdown last winter, I would think we would think more to the future being more than just random crime perpetrated by single attackers.

I fully expect group / gang activity to be on the increase if unemployement stays high.

And if 4 guys come at me with baseball bats, I would like to have more than 3 rounds in fact, 3 each sounds good.

People seem to think, how it is now is how it always will be.

Agreed! Reading about 3,4 or 5 guys doing home invasions some using body armor. Looking real hard at the Sig Blackwater w/20 round mags. My 1911s and I have a few, will always be my favorites (guaranteed).

 

[lvcat2004]

What ya mean "back" on top??

It's always been on top and always will be....except for those guys with short appendages that feel the need to compensate with firearms what they are lacking physically....

 

[ChCx2744]

PT1911 said:

get a sword, that is all you need.

Hell, lets just use a rock tied to a rope and call it a day.

 

[eJack]

What ya mean "back" on top??

It's always been on top and always will be....except for those guys with short appendages that feel the need to compensate with firearms what they are lacking physically....

Really, is there a reason to talk about appendages over what caliber people choose?

 

[DFW1911]

ou know, for a nation of people the very nearly went into economic meltdown last winter, I would think we would think more to the future being more than just random crime perpetrated by single attackers.

I fully expect group / gang activity to be on the increase if unemployement stays high.

And if 4 guys come at me with baseball bats, I would like to have more than 3 rounds in fact, 3 each sounds good.

People seem to think, how it is now is how it always will be.

Agreed! Reading about 3,4 or 5 guys doing home invasions some using body armor. Looking real hard at the Sig Blackwater w/20 round mags. My 1911s and I have a few, will always be my favorites (guaranteed).

The possibility of an economic meltdown was (is?) so palpable that we bought ammunition and firearms in droves. For me, I made the decision to have a 9mm as my primary pistol due to capacity and ammunition availability.

My rifle would still be primary weapon, if it was available. It's kind of tough to CCW a rifle at work!

 

[PAPACHUCK]

Most of my carry guns are 9mm's, but I do like having 14rds of .45 on me.

 

[rogertc1]

I have been collecting for over 3 decades and never went with the .40 cause I didn't want to have another round to hord. I have lots of different 9MM. Besides it is the NATO round.

 

[DHart]

9mm caught on... big time... and for good reason.

The 1911 is an awesome weapon, for sure, but honestly, one can never feel that it isn't better to have more rounds before a reload than less. I've got more 1911's in .45 acp than any other handgun type, but if I found myself in the deep stew with two or three adversaries, I would prefer 18 rounds of 9mm 124 gr. +P Gold Dots on tap before a reload than 9 rounds of .45 acp... much as I love .45 acp.

It has been clearly demonstrated in training that moving off the X while defending oneself is the name of the game for survival!

For the typical self-defense civilian facing potentially two or more savvy adversaries, with an objective of firing defensively WHILE MOVING OFF THE X... so as to avoid being shot, there is a huge potential for many missed shots... and a huge potential for needing a higher number of rounds on tap before a reload.

Standing like a stone while attempting to deliver rounds to your target may land some good hits, but at the same time, you are much more likely to be hit and taken down. Much better to be moving off the "X" while attempting to deliver defeating rounds to your adversaries.

I dearly love my 1911's, but a G19 loaded with a G17 mag, having 18 rounds of 124 gr. +P Gold Dots on tap, is arguably a better position to have than 1/2 that many rounds before a reload.

Gabe Suarez, a defense guru of great repute, has it right when he advocates for 9mm weapons of high capacity... the 1911 is an incredible gun, but let's face it folks, in today's world... moving while shooting is the name of the game (to avoid being hit!!!!), not standing like a plaster bust at the range, carefully squeezing off target-accurate shots, just waiting to be hit and taken down. Moving-while-shooting likely requires more ammo on tap before a reload -there will be more misses - and you will be less likely to be hit! Assuming respectable ballistic capability (which the 124 gr. +P 9mm Gold Dot definitely has), having significantly more rounds on tap before a reload is far preferrable to fewer rounds... especially if you have two or more adversaries!

Some will quote statistics stating the "most" gunfights (in statistical record) are over in three or four rounds... well, so much for statistics... are you truly comfortable relying on just 9 rounds if facing two or three armed adversaries... while you are firing when moving to protect yourself.... when you could just as well have 18 potent rounds on tap?

I rely on my 1911's when at home where I can easily retreat to more weapons, but when out and about with not other recourse than my carry gun, I lean more toward a high cap 9mm Glock than one of my revered single-stack 1911s. Not that I don't carry my 1911's at times... just that if I felt the potential for trouble was high... I'd lean toward the G19 with 16 rounds on tap with the standard mag and another 17-rounds in a G17 mag reload. 124 gr. +P Gold Dots being the round of choice in the G19.

 

[DFW1911]

Nicely summarized, DHart: I agree with you.

I believe the AWB was the single biggest factor in creating overwhelming 1911 interest. If it wasn't, I'm sure it had something to do with it.

Notice how since the d*** thing has expired the 9mm is making more than a modest comeback.

Even Wilson Combat, long known for their 1911s, have introduced 9mms of (I believe) their own design. Both of the ones I've seen are, in fact, quite ugly !

 

[Brian Williams]

First rule of the gun fight -- Have a gun!
Second rule -- you can't miss fast enough to win.

Actually the first rule is don't be there.

I have recently be looking hard at my Glock 19 and how it is actually smaller than my favorite carry gun a S&W 13. I have recently purchased a few more 15 round mags and have just bought from Natchez Shooting supply 2 G17 mags and 2 G19 mags. Now to find a couple of +2 base plates for the G-17 mags.

I really do like a 9mm version of a S&W 60-4. It carries well and is fairly small and the moonclips make for a very fast reload.

 

[tdyoung58]

My main carry a Ruger P345 and my backup a Taurus PT745 are both .45 acp

Have plenty of ammo and can make more if I want

 

[testosterone]

First rule of the gun fight -- Have a gun!
Second rule -- you can't miss fast enough to win.


--wally.

First rule of the gun fight -- Have a gun!
Second rule -- you can't miss fast enough to win.

Actually, rule 2 is Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice.

Rule 3 is your rule 2, Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.

I'm with you though!

Have a gun, any gun.

 

[-v-]

I prefer my 9mm to the .45. As far as SD goes, the 9mm has a proven history stretching back over one hundred and seven years. Yup, the 9mm been around for over a century!

Come a defensive shooting, good HP ammo in 9mm will do everything that good HP ammo in .40 and .45 will do. Only difference is I have 18-20 rounds of 9mm versus 8-9 rounds of .45. I like knowing that I do not need to re-load in a close range fight. Plus as testosterone pointed out: Anything worth shooting once, is worth shooting two, five, or eighteen times.

In the end, lets face it, the 9mm, .40 and .45 are about equally effective at stopping/killing people: they all suck!. More tries to stop result in more chance of stopping.

 

[okespe04]

Its a hard choice. Sometimes my G21 sits on my night stand at night and sometimes my g19. Either would do the job just fine.