9mm Case Guage Rejects!
- Thread starter MtnCreek
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1SOW
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Walkalong:
Truthfully I don't know; but my assumption was that the FCD sizing ring sized "lower" on the case than the Lee sizer-deprimer die.
First, let me say I don't have a 9mm case gage, just the chambers of my pistols, and my CZ is the tightest one. I usually load 150 or more rds/week ( in Winter a little less).
After I toss rejects (split cases, headstamps I don't use, cases that look corroded /almost black), the only case problems I've had are occassional loose primer holes. I pick up cases from at least two different ranges, so it can't be just luck.
When I first started reloading 9mm, I noticed the last die, the Lee FCD often slightly increased the oal .001/.0015. The case had already been through the sizer deprimer, but the case was made longer by the FCD, so my assumption is that it travels farther south than the sizing die.
So, right or wrong, I changed my press sequence. My FIRST die is now the Lee FCD with no crimp. Then sizer-deprimer die, seat primer, charge and flare case and LAST is seat and crimp bullet. This seems to work well.
I honestly don't have any cases that won't drop in my CZ chamber.
Truthfully I don't know; but my assumption was that the FCD sizing ring sized "lower" on the case than the Lee sizer-deprimer die.
First, let me say I don't have a 9mm case gage, just the chambers of my pistols, and my CZ is the tightest one. I usually load 150 or more rds/week ( in Winter a little less).
After I toss rejects (split cases, headstamps I don't use, cases that look corroded /almost black), the only case problems I've had are occassional loose primer holes. I pick up cases from at least two different ranges, so it can't be just luck.
When I first started reloading 9mm, I noticed the last die, the Lee FCD often slightly increased the oal .001/.0015. The case had already been through the sizer deprimer, but the case was made longer by the FCD, so my assumption is that it travels farther south than the sizing die.
So, right or wrong, I changed my press sequence. My FIRST die is now the Lee FCD with no crimp. Then sizer-deprimer die, seat primer, charge and flare case and LAST is seat and crimp bullet. This seems to work well.
I honestly don't have any cases that won't drop in my CZ chamber.
rfwobbly
Member
Mr Creek -
Thanks for the photos. I don't think you have "Glocked brass". It is impossible for the brass to expand at the rim like your gauge indicates. More than likely the extractor left a nick, dent, or some other abnormality on the rim that the gauge is not accepting, OR the rim was made ever so slightly oversize to begin with.
Expanded brass like we've been discussing usually happens further up the case so that the expanded area is about 1/4 inch from the rim. In these instances the brass stands way out from the gauge.
Here's an example of brass used in a "9 Major" gun. We know the brass is warped out of dimension because it also has a flattened primer to provide extra testimony. In other words, one feature corroborates the other's story.
Hope this helps!
Thanks for the photos. I don't think you have "Glocked brass". It is impossible for the brass to expand at the rim like your gauge indicates. More than likely the extractor left a nick, dent, or some other abnormality on the rim that the gauge is not accepting, OR the rim was made ever so slightly oversize to begin with.
Expanded brass like we've been discussing usually happens further up the case so that the expanded area is about 1/4 inch from the rim. In these instances the brass stands way out from the gauge.
Here's an example of brass used in a "9 Major" gun. We know the brass is warped out of dimension because it also has a flattened primer to provide extra testimony. In other words, one feature corroborates the other's story.
Hope this helps!
Sport45
Member
Check and see if the case will start into the gauge base-first. You may have burrs on the rim that are causing it to stop there. You can try going around the rim on thos with a needle file and then see if they gauge. (If they do, I'd quit using the gauge since they'll shoot just fine. )
)1SOW
Member
rf! You don't "mark' your 9 Major cases??
Why you dog.
Why you dog.
I haven't come across that problem in 9mm, yet. But I understand your issue, having dealt with it in .40. Since you can't use the Bulge Buster-type solution, I'd try sanding down a shellholder to get a fuller resize. If all else fails, you might want to try running your brass through a .38 Super sizing die.
Not so. I have loaded many 100's of thousands of 9mm for a range of different guns and didn't have this problem of rounds failing the gauge until a Glock was introduced into the mix.
I literally bought every brand of 9mm die (TC/TN/TiC and steel) except Dillon and couldn't fix it regardless of how I adjusted the dies and regardless of which of my dozen presses I used or what brand of shellholder.
I haven't used the U die and Lee doesn't make a 9mm Bulge buster in 9mm because of the taper.
Dies alone nor die adjustment cause this problem. It needs a Glock to be involved.
However I will acknowledge that for some reason that I can't determine it happens more with some dies than others.
I find that it happens most frequently with the Hornady TN FLS die and least often with the Lyman TC die.
The bulge buster kit is simply a push through stem that uses the appropriate caliber Lee FCD with the crimper top removed.
Unfortunately only works for straight cases.
rbernie
Contributing Member
It apparently resizes futher down the case than the sizing die (and yes, my sizing dies are adjusted to give full contact with the shell holder with the ram fully raised). I've never measured, but I've always assumed that the sizing ring is simply positioned lower in the die body in the FCD gizmo, since Lee could safely assume that case mouth/case taper was already reset appropriately by the sizing die and didn't need as much flare to the bottom bell.
The only chamberings that I've ever needed it for are the 9mm, 40S&W, and 357Sig, and I can use the appropriate FCD on all three. (I use the 40S&W FCD on the 357Sig.)
I do not mount the FCD in the toolhead for these chamberings but have it mounted on a toolhead that is used only to deal with the troublesome brass. In fact, I'm debating putting a FCD with the crimp adjuster backed all the way out in station two of my 550 toolhead for these three chamberings, ahead of the belling/powder drop, to use it purely as a bulge buster 'secondary sizing' die.
Oh, and before anyone gets on my case about Lee dies, my RCBS and Hornady 9mm sizing dies fare no better against the case bulge than the Lee 9mm sizing die.
A fair perspective that is best for accuracy and brass life, but one that does not always work once a second pistol is put into the mix. In my case, I reload 9mm and 40S&W and 357Sig for a multiplicity of handguns, each with their own ideas about chamber sizing. I am forced, therefore, to resize the brass to a minimum spec to ensure that it will chamber in any of my pistols.
RhinoDefense
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OzzieDoc, I too load a lot of 9mm, to the tune of 100,000+ rounds a month. Have two Super 1050s setup for 9mm, one has Dillon dies one has Redding Pro Series dies. Never had a round fail the case gauges from sizing issues. My ammunition is used in Glocks, SIGs, 1911s, Berettas, S&Ws, and one agency issues Springfield. Glocks aren't the issue and I've found what 918v says to be true as well.
It apparently resizes futher down the case than the sizing die (and yes, my sizing dies are adjusted to give full contact with the shell holder with the ram fully raised). I've never measured, but I've always assumed that the sizing ring is simply positioned lower in the die body in the FCD gizmo, since Lee could safely assume that case mouth/case taper was already reset appropriately by the sizing die and didn't need as much flare to the bottom bell.
The only chamberings that I've ever needed it for are the 9mm, 40S&W, and 357Sig, and I can use the appropriate FCD on all three. (I use the 40S&W FCD on the 357Sig.)
I do not mount the FCD in the toolhead for these chamberings but have it mounted on a toolhead that is used only to deal with the troublesome brass. In fact, I'm debating putting a FCD with the crimp adjuster backed all the way out in station two of my 550 toolhead for these three chamberings, ahead of the belling/powder drop, to use it purely as a bulge buster 'secondary sizing' die.
Oh, and before anyone gets on my case about Lee dies, my RCBS and Hornady 9mm sizing dies fare no better against the case bulge than the Lee 9mm sizing die.
A fair perspective that is best for accuracy and brass life, but one that does not always work once a second pistol is put into the mix. In my case, I reload 9mm and 40S&W and 357Sig for a multiplicity of handguns, each with their own ideas about chamber sizing. I am forced, therefore, to resize the brass to a minimum spec to ensure that it will chamber in any of my pistols.
If I understand you then you are not pushing the cases right through the FCD die like the Lee kit does for the straight sided cases but are using the FCD die as a type of FLS.
Shouldn't work but I went and tried it and you may have something.
According to Lee the FCD carbide ring is slightly larger than the standard FLS die and I have heard the cynics say the FCD was designed simply to use the reject dies off the FLS die line.
However just went and ran a few cases that had already been FLSed (and fail the gauge) through the FCD die and some of them now fit and all of them show at least some degree of improvement.
Now I am really confused.
Your 100,000's is bigger than mine so I defer to your experience.
All I can say is that I reload 9mm for my extended family using only my own brass (I suppose the occasional range brass gets in there) and upper end minor loads and while there were only BHP's, CZ's, NZ's and Berettas I had no problems.
When a Glock 34 and later a 17 were added to the mix with no other change I started having the odd case that would fail to chamber properly and when tested failed the gauge.
I have tried all brands of FLS dies except Dillon. Read that they had the largest radius to allow use in progressives so I assumed that they would size less of the case near the base.
I can usually see a slight ridge on the faulty cases as they drop off the press but I would hate to have to keep an eye on 100.000s + per month!!
OP
OP
MtnCreek
Member
I will put in a order to Midway for the Lee FCD and give it a try. The Lee set I currently have is the 3 die set that does not include the FCD.
I'm just guessing here, but I read up on the pistol FCD last night in my Lee manual. It states that the FCD in the pistol cal's has a sizer that resizes the case after it crimps it to remove any bulges from the crimping (and I assume overbelling). The 9x19 is a tapered case; the FCD crimps and resizes around the top of the case. It would make since that the sizer would be spec'ed for the dia of the case around the projectile. This area of the case is smaller than the area nearer the head, but the sizer must extend below the crimping mech. I guess it somewhat undersizes the area near the head.
I'm just guessing here, but I read up on the pistol FCD last night in my Lee manual. It states that the FCD in the pistol cal's has a sizer that resizes the case after it crimps it to remove any bulges from the crimping (and I assume overbelling). The 9x19 is a tapered case; the FCD crimps and resizes around the top of the case. It would make since that the sizer would be spec'ed for the dia of the case around the projectile. This area of the case is smaller than the area nearer the head, but the sizer must extend below the crimping mech. I guess it somewhat undersizes the area near the head.
cheygriz
member
If you can afford it, get a BarSto match barrel. If not, Get a Redding "Pro" sizing die. Either will solve your problem.
The decapping pin on the resizing die has a collar that prevents the die from contacting the shellholder completely when it is fully down. Even though you set the die up to contact the shellholder, when you resize it cannot go that far down because the collar hits the inside of the casing first.
The FCD doesn't have this problem so it sizes the case lower than the sizing die.
The FCD doesn't have this problem so it sizes the case lower than the sizing die.
Irregardless, the FCD can't size a bulged case, completely. So if that doesn't work, try grinding down a shell holder to get a more complete resize. You probably have spares, if you buy Lee dies.
Too bad you can't use the Bulge Buster adapter for 9mm. It's FAST. You just insert the brass and pull, then insert the next. You don't have to remove the brass until the tube is full. It works even better with finished rounds, because the nose of the bullet guides it in.
Too bad you can't use the Bulge Buster adapter for 9mm. It's FAST. You just insert the brass and pull, then insert the next. You don't have to remove the brass until the tube is full. It works even better with finished rounds, because the nose of the bullet guides it in.
rfwobbly
Member
Not necessarily. The best arbiter is your barrel. If it absolutely MUST shoot then use your barrel. However, often the barrel is locked away, dirty, or simply not available. In that situation case gauges and cartridges gauges can be helpful. You might have hundreds of rounds to check, say the night before a competition.
It's really not required for plinking ammo. But after having a round like the one on my photo, jam half-way into my chamber during a competition I consider them a requirement. But then, I hate to come in second.
1SOW
Member
The case/cartridge gage is cut precisely to the SAAMI max dimensions, so any case that seats properly in the case gage should run in any gun.
The trick is: not all pistol chambers are cut the same. Many are "larger" than the case gage, while some are precisely at SAMI specs and some maybe even slightly smaller(often called a tight chamber).
Your loaded cartridge fits your gun , but may not fit mine or another one. If you load for 2 or more of the same caliber, you would likely want all your loads to fit all your guns; so a case gage 'should' make that happen.
An alternative, is to use all your guns' barrel chambers as the gage. The smallest chamber is the sizing you need for all your cartridges.
The only problem with this is what about that "new" gun you're about to buy. Will your rds fit it?
Only the Shadow knows.
rf: It takes me forever to type. You beat me to it---again
Are you marking/painting those 9mm 'major' cases yet!?
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Even if you have only 1 gun for that caliber, if it's a typical autoloader you will still benefit from a case gauge. That's because most autoloader chambers aren't completely supported. If you drop a bulged case in your barrel, and the bulge just happens to line up with the ramp, then it will pass. Turn it 180 degrees, and it will fail.
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