9mm is cheaper & performs well, 45 is more proven, why all the agencies going 40S&W??

[.357 magnum]

Bobo is correct.

The switch to the .40 has mostly been for its ability to penetrate common barrier's and still put down the perp. The .40 also has a wide variety of ammo available that works quite well. Personally I use all three calibers. The .40 is the one I am the least accurate with. [although with practice I have gotten quite accurate] The .45 is my favorite, because I am the most accurate with it and I trust it a little more over the 9mm to stop the threat. I would not feel under gunned with my 9mm's since I use 124 gr +P ammo. I just feel those big holes will always get the job done. That being said, with todays bullet technology and higher mag capacities all three are quite adequate for the job.

The Best to All!

Frank

 

[msg usa]

.40 caliber.......its whats for dinner....!

 

[CWL]

In the '80's the FBI conducted bullet studies after the Miami Shootout in order to discover why properly-deployed .38spcl and 9mm bullets did not end the gunfight that resulted in the deaths of 2 and wounding of 5 of their Agents. I believe that it was the first serious study of bullet performance.

End results was that FBI adopted 10mm bullets, but that soon got downgraded to the .40S&W because the 10mm was too powerful for some to handle. Many LE Agendies/Depts. followed because they believed in the FBI report. It is not that uncommon for any Agency/Dept. to automatically adopt what the FBI chooses.

Non-M1911 .45ACP guns were pretty rare during the late 1980s and early 1990s -these did not make a real comeback until after the high-capacity magazine ban took place.

 

[harbinger_j]

Marketing and sales:

I think it is simple sales and marketing work.
Let's pretend I am selling and you are buying for the police:

Me: You could go with the 9mm which is what many consider is the minimum caliber for providing adequate stopping power. We also offer a .45 and the new .40 S&W.

You: Which one is the best choice, the lives of our police is our #1 priority.

Me: If it were up to me I'd go with the .45 a bigger bullet is going to make a bigger hole, but it can be expensive.

You: We need to keep our costs down, the budget is tight this year.

Me: Well you can always get the least expensive option: the 9mm.

You: I think we could go with the .40 S&W at least it is bigger than the 9mm.

Me: Here is the contract just sign on the dotted line.

It is easy to sell the mid-point product when people are buying a life-saving device and remember they are spending your money not their own.

 

[ceetee]

Don't forget the fact that police unions have a lot of say in what equipment their members use. The unions were the main reason NYPD switched from .38 revolvers to Glocks. The unions are often quick to jump on the latest fad, "for the good of the officers". In reality, they have to have some issue to fight for, or their members start wondering why they have to keep having dues pulled out of their check every week.

 

[brentfoto]

Compromise Round

I have no idea why any particular department chose .40 over the 9mm, 10mm or 45ACP. I would speculate, though, that it provided a promise of greater performance/stopping power than the 9mm yet not as limited re magazine and less recoil than the .45. 10mm being a bit much for FBI, the .40 was indeed struck as a compromise round between the 9mm and the 10mm as it is precisely 10mm in diameter.

I'm curious to know which major police agency first announced that it was switching to .40?

 

[.357 magnum]

brentfoto

Great Question. I think it may have been the FBI. As far as a regular police agency, I do not know. It would be interesting to find out. Hopefully someone knows. I will research it.

The Best to you and Yours!

Frank

 

[chieftain]

Studies like the ones conducted by Marshall et al have pretty much been shown to be invalid.

With non-expanding bullets, 45acp trump all others.

Oh? They proved Marshall etal were not scientific. All the jello murderers proved is that they have the best bullets for murdering Innocent blocks of jello. On the street, returns have shown Marshall wasn't that wrong.

IN the end both Fackler and Marshall were very close. Once Fackler and company proved that it took longer to kill some one than to stop them, they went away. Amazing.

Both sides had something to add to the study. The Jello murderers, were abusive in their treatment of Marshall, who did not purport his work to be science. Such were the ego's involved. The head jello murderer admitted his work only covered approximately 50% of the stopping power question.

AS to non-expanding bullets, At least the 9mm's will penetrate. No one can count on a 45 getting through. Two of the high priests of the 45 Cooper and Taylor both admitted the poor penetration capability of the 445acp.

Yes I am old. I have fired a Marine issue 1911 Colt 45 and I own a .357, 9mm and a .40 and for all around CCW and shooting at the range the 40 wins.

I am old too. I have fought with the 1911 Colt 45 and the S&W 38spl. Found the 38 to be more reliable, and normally penetrated better than the 45.

As to the 40 winning FOR YOU. ok for you, not for me. I prefer either 45 or 9mm. If I went for any of the new designer cartridges, I would probably op for the 357SIG. It is much closer to the round that I know to be the best. The 357Mag 125gr JSHP by Federal or Remington (full house, they did/do make an intermediate pressure option). NO agency changed from that cartridge due to lack of "stopping" power.

To many folks confuse killing power with stopping power. I don't want to die at the hands of someone I have killed.

The 45 has a certain following, but most agents just don't care.........……40 won the day because that's what most other federal agencies were adopting.

Not exactly an endorsement. Reinforces the concept of Bureaucratic "me to". "We chose this superior round because.............a bunch of others did."

My personal take is that neither 40 or 45 offer much over the 9mm. I like the 45 because I like the 1911 platform. I have a G26 because I happened to get a super good deal on 10,000 rounds of 40 S&W and I needed something to shoot it in.

What does the 40 or 45 offer over the 9mm? It ain't stopping power.

Best reason for a selection is the platform.

I hope you made an error. even 10,000 rounds of 40 S&W don't work so well out of a Glock 26. Either you bought a lot of 9mm or a Glock ?.

Any how. Religious beliefs in the stopping power of X round/caliber are BS. If anyone thinks the caliber chosen is going to win or lose the fight. You don't belong in any fight.

Mind set, ability, and tactics, are the most important elements in a fight.

As to a firearm, reliability is number 1 through 3. Platform fit to the individual is next. training with selected weapon, practice, and maintenance.

If caliber is still a question. I am not sure you understand the question.

For the record. As I write this, I am wearing a Colt Government in 45acp. I am about to go to dinner, I will be switching to one of my Hi Powers in 9mm.

go figure.

Fred

 

[armed85]

With comments like "with modern bullets, 9mm is..." and "with non expanding bullets, .45 ACP trump all others" I wonder if people know that .45 ACP has those "modern bullets" and +P pressures as well. Just a thought.

I prefer .45 ACP, but I'm issued an M9 for duty. I feel about the same with either a 9mm or a .45. If I knew a gun fight was about to happen, I'd rather have a rifle in my hands than a handgun. I really think the military should adopt a short barreled shotgun for "non combat" personnel, but I suppose I don't have enough rank to understand these decisions. Part of the reason the M4 carbine exists was to replace the M9 for certain personnel.

I chose .45 for the emotional value it has. The 1911 is a classic and so too is the round it was designed to fire. It's big. Maybe even too big. It's all American unlike the 9mm Luger. I barely have to try and I'm very accurate with a 1911 and the recoil is a nice "push" rather than the "snap" that a .40 S&W has.

Oh, and I'm 22. Not old and I prefer Colt 1911s and .45s over Glocks and other plastic pistols. I might not be tacticool, but I can put my 7 rounds on target better than most can put their 15.

We can argue about the plus or minus percentage point that the .40 S&W has over the 9mm Luger or the .45 ACP has over whatever else, but at the end of the day, a reliable shotgun, rifle, or carbine in a police officer's hands is going to do a lot more good than "upgrading" his or her 9mm to a .40 or .45.

The problems a police officer faces is a whole lot like what I face when I'm issued an M9. We rarely need a gun as we're not asking for a fight. The handgun is a defensive weapon and very limited in it's use.

When it comes to firearms, nothing the "higher ups" decide ever makes sense. This is true whether your uniform is camouflage or has a badge.

 

[scubie02]

the obvious answer, as already mentioned, is that the 40 balanced a round with more punch with the ability to still have high capacity.

People will say "but 9mm +P+ is JUST as affective!", which may well be true, but by the time you buy +P+ ammo, it is just as expensive or generally MORE so than 40 S&W, and less common to find on the shelf at the local store.

Personally, I own all three and like all three. I am a 1911 guy and most often carry a 45, so I am obviously a fan there. But with ammo prices going the way they are I find myself practicing with it less because 45 ammo is just so damned expensive these days. I have more 9mm stockpiled than anything else at this point. Obviously it is a pussycat to shoot. Even 40 is still fairly significantly less money than 45. All three are probably equally easy to find in stock--all very popular.

Recoil--I'd have to go with those who say the 45 is actually MORE pleasant to shoot than the 40 in this department, though this is probably subjective. I think it also has something to do with gun design as some soak up recoil better than others. Shoot them all in the same pistol and the opinion might change. The 40 is not unmanageable, though, and I'd just as soon shoot it as +p's out of an airweight j frame 38 or many 357's.

Bottom line, in my head I don't worry about any of them and figure they will all do the job. I will admit that when I'm walking the dog and thinking I might run into some large, toothy critter, I feel a bit better with the larger caliber guns. But for people, well, any hole's a bad hole for most people.

Oh, accuracy--I find that all three can be very accurate. I have pistols in all three calibers that can put them all in the 10 ring at 30 ft if I take my time and do my part.

 

[sm]

There was that time at Alphabet Agency Camp where the 10mm was the chosen Alphabet Agency Camp gun.

Just the gun did not fit all the campers very well, and therefore since the gun did not fit the campers well, they could not shoot it well.

So some of the Leaders of da camp said "How about making the ctg a bit less softer in recoil?
Others leaders said "My grandma what big eyes you have , sharp teeth too and isn't that gun a bit big and heavy to be shooting a diluted 10mm?

So Hansel & Gretal show up with a brand new plan with a .40cal Shorter&Weaker.
They passed out Kool-Aid and got all sorts of low bids, and intraweb debates going on.

If we will tout it - they will buy it - especially if we give great trade ins, and super prices for these poorer cased Shorter&Weaker, because everybody else will want what Cops want!

Hollywood got in on the act, I mean getting paid to show a dancing Pepsi can worked so well, why not a Shorter&Weaker?

Alphabet Agency Camp, sorta shut up, as they were enjoying the Kool-Aid and extra cookies for Camp leader training days.

Leastwise that was the story I was told anywho.

 

[rocketfish]

Guys, you are all wrong.

The LE agencies went to the .40 because they "are the only ones professional enough" to have it!

 

[finalcut]

A lot of you guys don't know what you're talking about. .
I have .45 - .40 - .44mag... and I like them all.
.40 has advantages over .45 & 9mm, and it has disadvantages - it all boils down to more choice to suite personal preference.

I like .40 over 9mm and .45 for a few simple reasons:
1- It has more stopping power than 9mm ( they are not the same ).
Fact - case studies show that BGs who get shot with .40 shoot back less than they do when shot with 9mm. When they get shot with 9mm they are often able to endure multiple hits and kill police with returned fire. Not so when they are shot with .40 as case studies show that optimum .40 cal provides one-stop shots in the mid to high 90%
2- It has better penetration than .45 and there are many situations when extra penetration is a very good thing.
3- It is cheaper than .45
4- You can fit more rounds in a gun than .45

For me it's got more of the best of both worlds with little compromise, and marketing had nothing to do with it.

 

[Soybomb]

Fact - case studies show that BGs who get shot with .40 shoot back less than they do when shot with 9mm. When they get shot with 9mm they are often able to endure multiple hits and kill police with returned fire. Not so when they are shot with .40 as case studies show that optimum .40 cal provides one-stop shots in the mid to high 90%

Can you cite a source? When someone starts talking "one stop shots" I always assume that they're talking about M&S data. It isn't statistically valid for a large number of reasons.

 

[chieftain]

1- It has more stopping power than 9mm ( they are not the same ).
Fact - case studies show that BGs who get shot with .40 shoot back less than they do when shot with 9mm. When they get shot with 9mm they are often able to endure multiple hits and kill police with returned fire. Not so when they are shot with .40 as case studies show that optimum .40 cal provides one-stop shots in the mid to high 90%

Repeat what Soybomb said:

Where is your source for that outlandish statement? I know of no agency or dept stating those facts.

Please, have another cup of kool aid and tell us where these "FACTS" come from. Or did the stork bring them?

Go figure.

Fred

 

[BobHAJ]

There is only a couple reasons.
1. Standardize on a single caliber
2. Women can't handle a .45

 

[finalcut]

Where is your source for that outlandish statement? I know of no agency or dept stating those facts.
Please, have another cup of kool aid and tell us where these "FACTS" come from. Or did the stork bring them?

Well it looks like they forgot to fax you their reports - you better get right on that : )

There's plenty of data out there. I'm sure you'll find reasons not to like any of it - but here is a neat chart from handloads.com
http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=0&Weight=All

Then there is a great book called "Combat Hand gunnery" by Massad Ayoob that has a nice section on loads covering some history & studies... that clearly show s&w .40 being a more powerful load. In fact he says that the reports from Nashville say that the performance of the Winchester Taloned Hollow-point in .40 is extraordinary - a description that I doubt is used by professionals when talking about 9mm.

Last but not least is common sense. We all know the story of why the FBI went to 10mm after getting shot up by the BGs who were not dropping dead fast enough when taking multiple hits with 9mm and then the new 10mm went to .40 because 10mm was to powerful for the feds to carry. Have you heard reports of BGs taking multiple hits with .40 on the same scale and proving as ineffective? No you have not. Quite the opposite. Law enforcement has numerous reports of .40 working great. There again "Combat Hand gunnery" by Massad Ayoob shares some of these testimonies.

The .40 is also known to have match-grade accuracy when loaded with EXP by Black Hills according to Massad.

Anyhow - my statement is not outlandish. Do your own homework. 9mm is said to be an ok round ( but not IMO ), but the .40 is more powerful weather you like it or not. I think it's outlandish to think otherwise, but what ever. I really don't care that much - to each his own - it's not like I own stock in S&W .40
I just think that when someone asks a question about some thing like this the answers givin should be more genuine. A lot of folks out there want to give .40 cal a bad wrap for some funky reason and in doing so lay down a lot of bias opinion. I'm not saying that .40 is WAY WAY WAY better than 9mm - but it is notably better, and there is plenty of data out there to back it up.
I wouldn't be surprised if our Military started to carry .40 more than .45 due to it's better penetration & sufficient stopping power. Wouldn't that be something.

By the way - I don't like Kool-Aid, I'm more of a coffee drinker.

 

[mavracer]

I like .40 over 9mm and .45 for a few simple reasons:
1- It has more stopping power than 9mm ( they are not the same ).
Fact - case studies show that BGs who get shot with .40 shoot back less than they do when shot with 9mm. When they get shot with 9mm they are often able to endure multiple hits and kill police with returned fire. Not so when they are shot with .40 as case studies show that optimum .40 cal provides one-stop shots in the mid to high 90%
2- It has better penetration than .45 and there are many situations when extra penetration is a very good thing.
3- It is cheaper than .45
4- You can fit more rounds in a gun than .45

I like 9mm and 45 over 40 S&W for a few simple reasons:
1- .45 has more stopping power than 40 ( they are not the same ).
Fact - case studies show that BGs who get shot with 45 shoot back less than they do when shot with 40. When they get shot with 40 they are often able to endure multiple hits and kill police with returned fire. Not so when they are shot with .45 as case studies show that optimum .45 cal provides one-stop shots in the mid to high 90%
2- 9mm has better penetration than .40 and there are many situations when extra penetration is a very good thing.
3- 9mm is cheaper than .40
4- You can fit more 9mm rounds in a gun than .40

I CAN GO ON FOREVER

ps they are both easier to control

 

[mavracer]

from your own data (wich BTW is from marshall and sanow)
45=96% > 40=94% > 9mm=91% and
in a 1911
9mm=10 rounds > 40=9 rounds > 45=8 rounds
in a glock its
17 > 15 > 13 respectivly

its marketing

the fotay is a compramise and to quote HK in a world of compramise some don't

if your 40 makes you feal warm and fuzzy thats great.But the OP asked why and why is marketing of an inferior product of the 10mm which was a knee jerk reaction to the miami shootout.
the bottom line is all handgun rounds are a comprimise,if you look at your chart even the mighty .308 is not 100%.the only way a COM (chest shot) is going to incapasitate the BG is by getting their blood pressure to 0 because you cant interupt the central nervous system above the third vertabrae with a chest shot.
IMHO the majority of one shot stops have nothing to do with caliber it has to do with "OMG they shot me I don't want them to do that again" the other ones that don't care the ones you have to STOP you either better figure out somthing to do while their BP drops or figure out how to interupt their CNS.
BTW if your reliaint on the weapon to stop BG on it caliber your in a bad state of mind.training, tactics and practice will save your life.
situation avoidance,escape,and only when no other option,
The ability to draw from concealment and put X rounds COM fast will be required to save your life,the caliber gun you have likely won't matter.

 

[scubie02]

he just asked why agencies changed, not how effective the rounds are vs each other and such--no reason to get too worked up...

hell, I carried 38's for years and still sometimes carry a j frame in 38 or 32 H&R if clothing or circumstance call for it--9's or 40's or 45's all seem pretty peppy by comparison haha, but I don't worry too much the j frame's ammo won't do the job. I remember one old timer I used to know stepping UP to 38 special after years of carrying various wheelguns 32's and such (he even had one of those pinfire models)

 

[armed85]

There is only a couple reasons.
1. Standardize on a single caliber
2. Women can't handle a .45

Where are you folks getting the idea that .45 ACP kicks like a mule? It's a low pressure round. It's not a 44 Magnum or a 454 Casull.

If you're talking about the grip size. Women with small hands have equal trouble with a double stack grip of a Glock or equivalent as they do with a single stack grip of a 1911. This is especially true for large double stack guns like the Beretta 92/M9.

Check this out:

http://www.womenandguns.com/archive/old0702issue/tacoma0802.html

 

[finalcut]

I like 9mm and 45 over 40 S&W for a few simple reasons:
1- .45 has more stopping power than 40 ( they are not the same ).
Fact - case studies show that BGs who get shot with 45 shoot back less than they do when shot with 40. When they get shot with 40 they are often able to endure multiple hits and kill police with returned fire. Not so when they are shot with .45 as case studies show that optimum .45 cal provides one-stop shots in the mid to high 90%
2- 9mm has better penetration than .40 and there are many situations when extra penetration is a very good thing.
3- 9mm is cheaper than .40
4- You can fit more 9mm rounds in a gun than .40

I CAN GO ON FOREVER

ps they are both easier to control

Yes you can go on forever I'm sure. But you're using two loads combined to out-perform one.... I just like .40 cause I think it has the best of both worlds in one round.

Anyhow - what ever. I wouldn't want to be shot with any of them. The only reason I'm replying is you said my first statement that .40 is more powerful than 9mm was outlandish... But you win : ) 9mm is better than .40 & .40 is a stupid round that need not exist. I was wrong...

 

[brownie0486]

Let's call a "spade a spade". The real reason is that many of these LEO's CANNOT qualify with a .45acp.

Cite the study on this statement for us please.

BTW- your statement is not true, you'll not find ANY study to support your statement.

In fact, the forty produces more recoil impulse than a 45acp. If someone can shoot a 40S+W well, they can shoot the 45 better [ where recoil is concerned ].

MOST agencies have not considered the 45acp, nor tested that cartridge for possible consideration for their officers for many reasons, but one of them is not because the 45 is harder to shoot than the 40.

State and local agencies have always pretty much followed the feds lead in caliber choice. They went with the 10mm, then later the 40s+w as it was easier for most of their officers to control and shoot well [ many could not handle the 10mm recoil ].

Brownie

 

[mavracer]

Yes you can go on forever I'm sure. But you're using two loads combined to out-perform one.... I just like .40 cause I think it has the best of both worlds in one round.

go back and read my first post #6 in this thread.
yes the 40 works ok, I never said it doesn't.but come on the best of both worlds,hardly.muzzle blast and recoils more than .45 less capacity than 9mm.no the 10mm is the best of both worlds 180 gr @1300.
I'll paraphrase my friend rantingredneck everyone who thinks I can't hit them with 8 rounds of 45 line up to the right those who think 1 9mm COM won't stop them line up to the left.

yes the 40 works but it exists because a 115 silvertip did not stop platte in miami and the women FBI agents couldn't handel the 10mm so they emasculated it and poof smoke and mirrors a new great thing everybodys gotta have it cause nothing else will work anymore.NOT

 

[chaim]

I like them all, so I definately have no desire to go (where this easily can) into a knock down, drag out, "mine is better than yours"... All three calibers have advantages and disadvantages when compared with the others.

40 S&W is the answer to a non existant question.

I used to say the exact same thing, now it is one of my favorite defensive calibers (when I'm in a carry state and not carrying a revolver it is my #1 caliber, while I usually use .45ACP for home defense).

While I can't really say why so many police agencies went with it, here are my reasons for my changeover:

-It has comparable power to the .45ACP. Depending upon what measure you use (muzzle energy, Taylor Index, the discredited "one shot stops," etc.) it comes out nearly equal to or even slightly above similar .45ACP power levels.

-It can be chambered in smaller framed weapons than the .45ACP and still hold more rounds.

-While the 9mm can hold more rounds, it isn't as powerful. I think it is enough (and in the smallest guns in these calibers I'd go with the lower recoiling 9mm), but the extra gain in the .40 is quite reassuring.

-Related to the last point, while you can get similar performance between all three with the right ammo choice (which negates any price benefit of the 9mm BTW since the really good 9mm ammo costs the same as the best ammo in the other 2), ammo selection is particularly important in 9mm. There are some great performers in 9mm defensive JHPs but there are some that are quite marginal as well. With .40S&W out of any common barrel size, and .45ACP in standard (4+") barrel sizes, even the most marginal defensive JHPs have pretty decent performance. In a short barrel .45ACP loses this advantage, but .40S&W keeps it, so in a short barrel I definately choose .40S&W over even .45ACP.

-While I do think the .40S&W recoil is less comfortable than either 9mm or .45ACP it is only marginally less comfortable. In any but the smallest guns it is chambered in, it is comfortable to shoot (in a service sized pistol it is quite comfortable). However, in a pocket, or near pocket, sized gun (like the Kahr PM series) I would prefer a 9mm.

For military and police use, there are two other advantages I see (though not concerns for me):
-Military: The military can only use FMJ. The 9mm is quite a marginal caliber without expanding bullets. The .40S&W isn't as big as the .45ACP, but it is big enough that its performance with FMJ isn't bad, and coupled with the next advantage I think it is even a good choice for the military (the Coast Guard apparently agrees since they went with the SIG 229 I believe, it may have been the 226, in .40S&W).
-Hard barrier penetration (walls, doors, car doors, windows): The higher velocity rounds (9mm and .40S&W) have a significant advantage in this area over the .45ACP. The 9mm has a disadvantage for military use due to no JHP the .45ACP has a disadvantage in hard barrier penetration, while the .40S&W is a nice compromise giving a larger diameter (better for FMJ only) and hard barrier penetration.


So, for all of us the .40 gives performance comparable to the .45ACP in smaller guns (better for small hands) and higher capacity. It gives capacity comparable to 9mm in the same sized guns with more power. It makes ammo selection a bit more simple than 9mm or even .45ACP if your gun has shorter than a 4" barrel (you can buy what is on sale if you are on a budget). For police and military use it gives 9mm-like barrier penetration with .45ACP-like power, and for the military it has a larger diameter than 9mm which is very important since they can't use JHPs. The cost is slightly less pleasant recoil, but it isn't bad or outside the capabilities of most shooters (especially in full-sized service pistols or the next size down, like the 229).