9mm Makarov -Vs- 380 Acp

[Wildbillz]

Hi All
I have been looking at some of my guns and concidering the options. A couple of years back I bought a Ruger LCP. I carry the LCP most of the time when I carry. It's small and I all most forget that I have it on me. The caliber is a bit on the light side but for the small package I am willing to accept it.

I have been thinking of picking up eather a Beretta 84 in 380 acp or a Walther PPK. Mainly because they use the same ammo as the LCP but are a little bigger and easyer to grip. I some times get called out for work late at night and I want to carry somting mid size.

Now looking in the safe I all ready have a PA 63 in 9mm Makarov. I all so have a CZ 82 also in 9mm Mak.

So I started to think about it and was wondering if it might make more sence to hang on to the PA and the CZ and call it good. I have the reloading equipment for both calibers, brass, primers and powder. No bullets for eather so that end is sort of moot.

I guess the question is, is the Mak any better or worse then the 380 Acp? I know that during the Obama run on ammo Mak came back in quantity before 380 did (at least here in central TX). My Speer manual is a little old and only shows a couple of loads for the Mak. 90grn and 95grn bullets for both calibers, all though it shows a 100grn load for the 380 Acp. Primers are going to be the same for eather, small pistol standards. Looks like the 9mm Mak has the edge in powder. It takes a little more in each case but gives a bit more velocity in return.

I all ready own the CZ and PA. If I go for the 380 Acp I will have to buy the new pistoles and mags, the Bretta and Walther will run at least $400. each. So I am thinking that I will just hang on to what I have and live with having two differant calibers.

Thoughts?
WB

 

[zxcvbob]

The Mak uses a little larger diameter bullet, and it's loaded to a little higher energies, and the ammo is a little cheaper. All of those are wins.

 

[waidmann]

I'd give a slight edge to the Makarov, a very slight edge. I would put the Beretta 84 and CZ 82 in the same class, size, weight, capacity. Both a bit big for pocket carry. The PA63 is in the same grouping as the PP not far from a PPK/S, a little ways more to the PPK.

I suggest you look at the Radom P-64. Essentially a PPK, 9X18 chambering and after you swap the spring inside the grip for a Walther replacement, an acceptable DA pull. I have seen Radom P-83 hit the shelf at the LGS, maybe give them a look. Both the Polish guns should be in your price range.

 

[antiquus]

I have A CZ-82 and a PA-63 also, and I carry the PA - thinner and significantly lighter than the CZ. The CZ is a great gun, but wide and heavy. Go to CTD or Aim for Silver Bear HP's - $11/50, cheap as 9mm Para.

 

[GRIZ22]

I'd give a slight edge to the Makarov, a very slight edge.

Same here but its so slight an edge I'd consider it insignificant.

 

[towboat_er]

Cost of ammo is significant.

 

[Devonai]

The late Stephen A. Camp wrote a great breakdown of the 9x18mm, .380, and .38 Special. Check it out!

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Comparisonof9x18mmMakarovetc.htm

 

[mgmorden]

Cost of ammo is significant.

For a carry gun? Realistically it doesn't take much shooting to remain proficient with one particular gun over another. Do the bulk of your practice with your cheap-to-shoot guns and then enough with your carry gun that you know you're proficient with it and that its still working ok.

To the original poster: I've actually been considering the same thing lately. Like you, I typically pocket carry an LCP. The .380 round doesn't bother me, but realistically the LCP is a hard little gun to hold onto. I have practiced enough with it that I can put my shots where I want them, but the gun isn't comfortable - it's just too small.

I've been looking for something with a tad more grip to hang onto for carrying IWB. At this point I'm kinda torn between a Bulgarian Makarov, a Kel-tec PF9, or a Kahr CW9 (or possibly a Bersa .380). Kinda leaning towards the Makarov right now as it's cheaper than the Kahr and I'd trust it more than the Kel-tec. I've already got a CZ-82 but IMHO it's just too thick at the grip for me to comfortably wear it IWB. I really need a single-stack.

 

[gearhead]

I own a Bulgarian Makarov, a P-64, and a Taurus 709 as my compacts. The Makarov is just a bit too large to pocket carry, the P-64 and Taurus are for all practical purposes the same size and are the absolute maximum I can pocket carry. I currently alternate.

 

[jiminhobesound]

An intersting point if you want to go hot commercial loads. Go to Reed ammo or Bufallo and you will find one of them prodices a .380 round that is somewhat more potent than any of the 9x18 hot loads.

 

[vellocet]

Most of the pistols available in 9x18 are of much higher quality for the price than .380s. You can get a mak/pa-cz whatever for about the same price as highpoint or similar poop. The gel tests all show that while close the 9x18 in most common loads outperform the .380 and ON LINE cost less and are more available,too. Do you really think the eastcoms would make so many good pistols for this round if they were wimpy? Bond carried a .380 because italian guns are stylish. Eastcoms carried 9x18 to kill people with small guns.

 

[Dnaltrop]

My old man alternates between the Bersa thunder .380 (with crimson trace, bought before his cataracts were fixed) and his CZ-82.

Both in the 200-250 range , feed well... The felt recoil is very similar... Milk jugs explode the same way.

The Mak surplus rounds however penetrate the 2x4's more deeply, Magnet tells the tale, Steel, the poor mans Legal AP round.

I'd go with the CZ first for my personal collection. History in the hand.

 

[toivo]

Bond carried a .380 because italian guns are stylish.

Bond's Italian gun was a Beretta in .25 ACP. He traded up to a German gun (Walther PPK) in a whopping .32 chambering.

Wildbillz, could you clarify something? You already have the PA-63 and the CZ-82, right? Were you planning on getting rid of both of them to get a .380? Or two .380s? I'm not sure what your original plan was.

Regardless, I would hang onto the CZ if I were you. If you want to add a decent, cheapish .380 to the family, take a look at the Bersa Thunder. I just picked one up for $229 at a Gander Mountain sale, and I'm liking it just fine so far. However, if I had to choose between it and the CZ, it would be "Bye-bye Bersa."

 

[Snowdog]

I suggest you look at the Radom P-64.

A little more than a year ago, I really would have scoffed at this. Then the P64 went C&R and I had to buy one simply for that reason. Now I must echo the above; absolutely look into the P64, especially if you like the PPK.

The DA trigger is amusingly appalling, but the SA is absolutely stunning, as one would expect from a high-end custom 1911.
When I carry mine, which is a perfect size for "Thunderwear" (I swear I haven't any stock in this company), I honestly forget that I'm carrying. You know your pistol carries well when you realize, hours after returning home, that your pistol is still on you... and discovered only because nature calls. At least when I pocket carry my P32, which is pretty much when tending my yard, the chaffing action will occasionally remind me of its presence.

In terms of ballistics, the 9x18 and 9x17 are about the same. The 9x18 does enjoy a slight edge, but hardly enough to brag about. The P64 also has the very limited magazine capacity of 6 rounds.
So why do I carry the P64 on occasion? Because due to its profile, it pairs well with Thunderwear, it's 20lbs-esque DA trigger pull ensure surprises are infinitesimally unlikely (though it also has a manual safety) and when I am ready to send a slug down range, I know this pistol will put them where I want them.

All that said, I still carry a M&P40c most of the time now.

 

[ATBackPackin]

If it were me I would use one of the 9mm Mak's that I already have. If it is the PA-63 you end up using I would order some springs from Wolff. I replaced the original 11# recoil spring for an extra power 15# one. I also replaced the original 16# hammer ring with a reduced power 11# one. These two really inexpensive changes made a huge difference in the performance of my PA-63.

Shawn

 

[Wildbillz]

Thanks for the advice guys.

toivo
Yep I was looking at getting rid of the 9mm Mak guns and buying something similar in 380acp.

At this point I think I will just hang on to them and deal with the fact that I am stocking two differant calibers. The two guns are all ready paid for and cheaper should I have to replace one of them. Only thing that bothers me is they will be harder to find repair parts should one brake down. Second gun on each of them maybe the right answer.

Now I need to find some decent JHP bullets for them. How are the Hornady XTPs in this caliber?

Thanks
WB

 

[antiquus]

Hornadays are fine, but the Silver Bear HP's are as good, and cost $11/50 online. I've shot a few thousand, no problems.

Also, you can send A CZ-82 to CZ for any repair or buy any part from them. The CZ-83 is still sold, and it's identical except for the barrel. Any if you need a Mak barrel, they have them too.

 

[ATBackPackin]

Parts for the PA-63.

Parts for the CZ-82.

Ammo in 9mm Mak.

For the PA-63 I would not use any ammo over 95gr. I'm not sure about the CZ-82.

Shawn

 

[legion3]

The only real issue with the 9mm Mak is the lack of choices of ammo, we used to have many loads when the MAK first began to be imported, some excellent (PS Grand and the Corbon HP) and some so-so. Most of the ammo is imported by Russia and as we have found out with other items that supply could dry up or cease being imported.

The 380 has far more modern (or non russian choices of ammo.

The only other problem is no new MAK pistols are being produced, at least none that are being imported, so its a military surplus gun. Nothing wrong with that as long as parts last but eventually it may be a problem.

I have carried both a FEG SMC 918 and a East German Makarov on and off for many years.

Power wise the 9Mak is a slightly better performer but the 380 comes in smaller guns these days and has more modern HP choices, provided they expand.

 

[Shadow 7D]

The CZ was designed for a MUCH faster type of ammo, called, Vz. 82 (why it poly rifled instead of conventional), BUT since it's sintered IRON (and hence according to the ATF AP) YOU can't get it any more, BUT, if you happen to see any AP63 with chewed bore and a cracked frame, you can thank the package deal some importers were running, AP63 and 200 rounds of 'black surplus 9x18'.

It's about 20% hotter, the Buffalo bore is supposed to be good in the the Mak and the 82, I would be careful in the Alloy guns or something as small as the P 64 (that's just the recoil)

 

[JR47]

Most of the pistols available in 9x18 are of much higher quality for the price than .380s. You can get a mak/pa-cz whatever for about the same price as highpoint or similar poop. The gel tests all show that while close the 9x18 in most common loads outperform the .380 and ON LINE cost less and are more available,too. Do you really think the eastcoms would make so many good pistols for this round if they were wimpy? Bond carried a .380 because italian guns are stylish. Eastcoms carried 9x18 to kill people with small guns.

Wow! Internet lore at it's finest.

The "eastcoms" carried the Makarov cartridge because the Russians told them to. The Russians had virtually no use for handguns in their military, except for executions and assassinations. Quite the recommendation there.

Bond carried a .32 ACP Walther. Last time that I looked that was German.

The days of cheap 9x18 are coming to an end. Today, there is little surplus left, and the Russians have moved to 9x19 as their service caliber. Very soon, the only supply will be new ammo, at higher prices.

Looking around, we see the newer 9x18 chambered guns coming in around $200.00. They are mostly SA and SA/DA guns. The more modern .380 ACP handguns are DAO, and are smoothed for true pocket carry. I see the P380 and PF9s going for just around that same $200.00 mark. Care to compare the small 9x18 to the small 9x19 for power?

My belief is that, if the .380 ACP isn't enough power, the miniscule advantage of the 9x18 isn't enough to help. The same size package can house a 9x19 today. If you're going up, why not actually do so.

One last thought, on-line you can also buy .380 ACP cheaper than locally.

 

[Snowdog]

Hornadays are fine, but the Silver Bear HP's are as good, and cost $11/50 online. I've shot a few thousand, no problems.

The version of Silverbear 94gr HP that's offered currently is probably as reliable and possibly similar in accuracy to Hornady's 95gr XTP. Unfortunately, unlike the 120gr and 115gr Silver Bear JHPs of yesterday that expanded wonderfully, current 94gr Silver Bear JHPs seldom expand.

A point-blank 94gr Silver Bear JHP fired into water jugs and wet pack fail to expand from either my CZ-82 or P64. It will somewhat expand if fired into bare plumber's putty (that has a reputation of causing JHPs to over-expand and fragment). In real life, these JHPs shouldn't be expected to expand. However, they do cut a nice hole in paper and perform like a truncated FMJ. Considering the limited energy the 9x18 possesses, this isn't a bad thing IMO.

The days of cheap 9x18 are coming to an end. Today, there is little surplus left, and the Russians have moved to 9x19 as their service caliber. Very soon, the only supply will be new ammo, at higher prices.

If I'm not mistaken, there hasn't been military surplus imported into the US for quite some time. The cheapest stuff we're using today was very much manufactured for the commercial market. I don't know if the ammunition is manufactured using suplus material or not, but some of the facilities that manufacture 9x18 also manufacture 9x19 (as well as .40S&W, .45acp and other commercially popular cartridges).

I don't see the end of inexpensive 9x18 any time soon, especially as the inexpensive 9x18 we're talking about is lacquered or polymer coated steel-case commercially packaged ammunition selling for around $10/50.

 

[legion3]

I don't see the end of inexpensive 9x18 any time soon, especially as the inexpensive 9x18 we're talking about is lacquered or polymer coated steel-case commercially packaged ammunition selling for around $10/50.

Unless Obama bans ammo imports from Russia (Like Bush Sr did for Chinese imports) with a stroke of his pen.

 

[toivo]

Unless Obama bans ammo imports from Russia (Like Bush Sr did for Chinese imports) with a stroke of his pen.

Now that would suck... Try not to start any rumors -- I would hate to see a run of panic-buying on the import 9x18.

 

[mgmorden]

The Russians had virtually no use for handguns in their military, except for executions and assassinations.

With all due respect, that's pretty much just more internet lore. It's not really incorrect, but realistically the Russians (or any military) had just as much need of handguns - or lack thereof - as any other nation's military.