9mm +P and +P+ compared to .357 mag snub

Status
Not open for further replies.
CDW4ME

CDW4ME

Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2009
Messages
3,427
Location
Florida
The 9mm in some of it's +P and +P+ loadings produces comparable power to the .357 mag and some of it's loads when fired from a snub or 2'' barrel.

The barrels on revolvers are measured differently from semi-autos. A Glock 19 with a 4'' barrel includes the chamber where the bullet sits; if I measure my revolver the same way a 2 3/4'' barrel is really 4 3/8'' including the chamber / cylinder. The difference in how they are measured makes a 2'' revolver very comparable to the Glock 26.

Note: I am not saying the 9mm in +P or +P+ loadings is comparable to a 4'' barrel .357, it's not.

However, when both are fired from "concealable" packeges like suub revolvers or a Glock 26 or 29 the hot 9mm can give performance comparable to the mag.

My chronographed velocities (average for 5 shots):
Glock 26 / Winchester Ranger T 124 +P @ 1,162 fps = 372# KE
Glock 26 / Winchester Ranger T 127 +P+ @ 1,182 fps = 394# KE

Glock 19 / Winchester Ranger T 124 +P @ 1,212 fps = 405# KE
Glock 19 / Winchester Ranger T 127 +P+ @ 1,238 fps = 433# KE

Kahr P9 / Federal 115 gr. +P+ 1,272 fps / 413# KE.

Ruger Speed Six .357 Mag (2 3/4'' barrel)/ Federal 125 JHP @ 1,248 fps / 432# KE.

SP101 / Winchester 110gr. JHP @ 1,208 fps / 356# KE. (I no longer have this gun)

Taurus 617 (ported) / Federal 125 gr. .357 magnum JHP @ 1,143 fps / 363# KE.

Published data:

Gun Tests magazine March 2005:
Federal 115 gr. +P+ @ 1,294 fps / 427# KE
Remington 115 gr. +P+ @ 1,290 fps / 425# KE
Winchester 127 gr. +P+ @ 1,199 fps / 405# KE

Glock Autopistols 1996 magazine.
These loads were fired from a G19:
Cor-Bon 115 +P 1,268 fps / 410# KE
Cor-Bon 124 +P 1,217 fps / 408# KE

Gun Tests Magazine Sept. 2006:
Ruger SP101 .357 Mag (2.25'' barrel) Federal 125 JHP @ 1,195 fps / 396# KE.
S&W model 60 .357 Mag (2.1'' barrel) Federal 125 JHP @ 1,165 fps / 376# KE.

Gun Tests Magazine April 1999:
Taurus 617: Federal 180 JHP 1,023 fps / 418# KE
S&W 686: Federal 180 JHP 1,042 fps / 434# KE

Gun Tests Magazine Jan. 2002:
S&W 686: Winchester 110 JHP 1,231 fps / 370# KE
Taurus 617: Winchester 110 JHP 1,206 fps / 356# KE

S&W 686: PMC 158 gr. JHP 1,068 fps / 400# KE
Taurus 617: PMC 158 gr. JHP 1,075 fps / 406# KE

Gun Tests Magazine March 2002:
Taurus 617: Black Hills 125 JHP 1,160 fps / 374# KE
S&W 386PD: Black Hills 125 JHP 1,199 fps / 399# KE
S&W 386Sc (3.1'') Black Hills JHP 1,285 fps / 459# KE

I thought some folks might find this comparison interesting. :)
 
That is interesting. Well cited and researched.

We have always heard that the 9mm is weak and puny and the .357 is big and manly. I guess the difference isn't as big as we thought. Of course, as you have hinted at, regular 9mm loadings and a .357 mag out of a 4"-6" barrel would be a lot different.
 
I've said before that I handloaded 9mm as potent as 357 mag ammo. I have no doubt some did not believe that but I didn't catch any flak for the comment (I get ignored a lot :p).

It requires a strong gun so I won't mention specifics but according to the book I used it beats your numbers. I believe those factory ammo liability lawyers never sleep.
 
The book Stopping Power by Evan Marshall and Edwin Sanow shows an almost identical finding. They say that 1400 fps is what the 4" barreled .357 revolver does and that is what they were trying to compare all other handgun calibers to. There were only a few that came close, the 9mm, .40, and .357 sig.
 
He must be a die hard 9mm lover lol. I never measured or never knew anyone who measured the cylinder of a revolver as part of the barrel. Guess cylinder gap means nothing. It takes the 9mm all "pumped up" to just nose out in front of specifically picked normal pressure 357 Magnum in a 2" to 2 1/2" barrel...from certain picked ammo manufacturers. Good luck in finding the ammo and using it continuously out of the 9mm. I'm sure there are other 357 Magnum ammo manufacturers that will surpass the +P and the +P+ 9mm load in the bullet grains he picked, that he did not mention. He is just picking his battles to make his point.

This discussion on the firing line brings up a lot of missed and good points.

Looks like cdw4me is "fishing" here now to get people to side with him, seems he wants to feel safe in his choice of SD ammo pick...I guess :confused:. He was getting nowhere on the other site and I noticed this time he used the word "SOME" on here lol. He is picking his battles...lets pick .380 hot loads or 38 Special hot loads and compare them to specifically picked normal 9mm loads in a 2 or 3 inch barrel lol.

Of course you will find manufacturers making loads in all calibers that will do a bit better than the next bullet size. You need to really look for them. Does it mean one caliber is better than the other? No it does not, there is no magic bullet. If some cites flash and muzzle "kick"...well his picks of hot 9's and picks of 357 magnum loads will have comparable muzzle flash and "kick".

If you shoot your 9 well then that's great, if you shoot your 357 Magnum well then that's great, if you shoot you 45 well then that's great also. As long as you shoot your pistol well then that's all that should matter. Muzzle velocities should not be the way to choose or defend your choice in caliber and pistol. It is not king...shot placement is :D
 
CTShooter said:
He must be a die hard 9mm lover lol....Looks like cdw4me is "fishing" here now to get people to side with him, seems he wants to feel safe in his choice of SD ammo pick...I guess :confused:.
Click to expand...
Don't know if it's that or simply rabbit fanboyism.

CDW4ME, I carry 9x19. Standard pressure 9x19 at that. Use something reputable, and you'll be OK. But as I mentioned on the over on the firing line thread, you got to go to at least 9x21 to start getting anywhere close to ... OK, let me just copy and paste my post again, with a bit of emphasis. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Dannix on the TheFiringLine thread
I'm new here, but I find this topic pretty funny.

Why? Just get an aftermarket barrel for your Glocks in 9x21. That's a 200fps increase for 147grains at SAAMI-spec pressures (same bullet, same barrel length). Keep your factory 9x19 for when you want to plink. Remember, If you like a caliber but want it moving faster, choose a different cartridge.
Click to expand...
 
The 9mm in some of it's +P and +P+ loadings produces comparable power to the .357 mag and some of it's loads when fired from a snub or 2'' barrel.
Click to expand...

Your research and conclusions are correct as they are on "TFL." :)

--By the way, you do a good job defending your conclusions against fanboys who will never admit that you're right, even though they could nearly duplicate the same results themselves using the same guns and same ammunition as you and all the publications that you listed had done.

Again, good job!
 
Last edited:
very poor comparison

You only compared the standard Remington 125 jsp.

Now if you want to compare hot with hot. then

* Bullet Wt.: 125gr COR®BON Self-Defense JHP
* Velocity: 1400fps
* Energy: 544ftlbs



steve
 
The 357 has far more potential than does the 9mm. If you move away from factory loads which are kept fairly impotent on advice of corporate counsel and explore the world of custom hand loading the 357 will eat any 9mm load for lunch.

I tested my top 357 load (125 JHP) and it clocks 1550 FPS from my 2.5 M19 (1625 in a 5" M27).

And surprise, surprise the K frame Magnum did not blow up (although I am sure the general and tear is greatly accelerated which is why I reserve this load for the heavy N frame revolvers).

My 38 Special load is closer to those 9mm offerings with a 125 JHP making 1150 FPS from a 4" barrel.
 
From the math posted over at the firing line, comparing your biggest "bestest" baddest 9mm ++++p++++ out of a 4" pipe you are struggling to SLIGHTLY edge out the Buffalo Bore 158 grain in 38+p out of a 2" pipe.

Comparing 4" pipe 9mm versus 4" .357 (apples to apples) your pet 9mm round only hits 60% of the .357....that's a "D"....or in this case..."dee dee dee":uhoh:
 
Last edited:
del4 That is interesting. Well cited and researched.
We have always heard that the 9mm is weak and puny and the .357 is big and manly. I guess the difference isn't as big as we thought. Of course, as you have hinted at, regular 9mm loadings and a .357 mag out of a 4"-6" barrel would be a lot different.

Thanks, that's my point. :)

CTShooter He must be a die hard 9mm lover lol. I never measured or never knew anyone who measured the cylinder of a revolver as part of the barrel.
Looks like cdw4me is "fishing" here now to get people to side with him, seems he wants to feel safe in his choice of SD ammo pick...I guess . He was getting nowhere on the other site and I noticed this time he used the word "SOME" on here lol

:barf:

-I'm not a 9mm "lover". Sometimes I carry 9, sometimes 40, sometimes 45.
-How about if I subtracted the chamber when I measured the barrel on a semi-auto?
-I'm not "fishing". Yes, this thread has the same information, but I have all the data organized into my initial post. See the first reply, that's why I'm posting the info. some people find it useful. I don't need people to "side" with me. The data is what it is. I used the word "some" because the 9mm only delivers those levels of power in it's hottest loadings and I know there are hotter .357 loads, I thought this was clear in my initial post.

Dannix "Don't know if it's that or simply rabbit fanboyism".

:barf:

I've been carrying a Glock 27, but that has nothing to do with this thread.

I was very clear in my initial post.

Let's turn this around. Apparently the .357 fanboys can't stand it if someone finds a few examples where the "lowly" 9mm can be as powerful as their beloved :rolleyes: mag. If someone (me) attempts to accurately compare barrel lengths, that's a negative. Even when I'm specific in my comparison, the .357 "fanboys" will start talking 4'' barrels and Buffalo Bore regardless of the fact that I began the thread with: "The 9mm in some of it's +P and +P+ loadings produces comparable power to the .357 mag and some of it's loads when fired from a snub or 2'' barrel".

Apparently it's intolerable for someone to present data accurately and clearly.

I presented data. That's it. Don't make assumptions about me being a "fanboy" or wanting people to agree with me.
 
I got nothing against the 9. In fact my daily carry is a S&W M659. And I certainly don't feel threatened by any firearm discussion. I feel the 9mm with a good load is adequate for self defense use. But reality checks in from time to time and the reality is the 357 Magnum is more powerful and trying to prove otherwise is a fool's errand.

BTW- How about the 38 Super? It also beats the 9 by about 100-150 FPS with the same bullets.
 
From CDW4ME "...-I'm not a 9mm "lover". Sometimes I carry 9, sometimes 40, sometimes 45.
-How about if I subtracted the chamber when I measured the barrel on a semi-auto?
-I'm not "fishing". Yes, this thread has the same information, but I have all the data organized into my initial post. See the first reply, that's why I'm posting the info. some people find it useful. I don't need people to "side" with me. The data is what it is. I used the word "some" because the 9mm only delivers those levels of power in it's hottest loadings and I know there are hotter .357 loads, I thought this was clear in my initial post.

I've been carrying a Glock 27, but that has nothing to do with this thread.

I was very clear in my initial post.

Let's turn this around. Apparently the .357 fanboys can't stand it if someone finds a few examples where the "lowly" 9mm can be as powerful as their beloved mag. If someone (me) attempts to accurately compare barrel lengths, that's a negative. Even when I'm specific in my comparison, the .357 "fanboys" will start talking 4'' barrels and Buffalo Bore regardless of the fact that I began the thread with: "The 9mm in some of it's +P and +P+ loadings produces comparable power to the .357 mag and some of it's loads when fired from a snub or 2'' barrel". ..."


The way you went about it was wrong, one sided and kind of misleading, this is why you're getting so much flack. You really need to print the truth about the difference between the 9mm and 357 Magnum, not pick certain findings that suits your "comparison testing".
You should run for president.
Just like you did here again. Guess you didn't want to quote my other words, just what suits you. I tried to help you (if you want to learn) and others to see there is always going to be one or two "buffed up" rounds that will slightly outperform -in numbers- a higher caliber of a NORMAL PRESSURE in comparable firearms. But it seems you're using "apples to oranges" in your comparison. Lets try the 380 hot loads or the 38 Special hot loads against picked 9mm rounds, with the 9mm having a much shorter barrel?
Don't know why your trying to reword or add things in this thread from your other thread on the The Firing Line? Because of this...Yes, it definitely sounds like your fishing for people to side / agree with you. Which site are you going to post this on next?

All I want to know about a cartridge, is how big of a wound cavity is this bullet going to make, the expansion or frangibility of the said bullet, and if I can accurately shoot the target with said ammo. Not if it can out beat a higher cartridge in numbers. People need to STOP picking ammo based on numbers for SD.

You are right, there are other 357 Manufacturers that will surpass your +P and +P+ loads...out of a 2", 2 1/4", 2 1/2" and 3" BARRELED 357 Magnum. Why not post them to be fair and equal? Heck, why not post up numbers from a 2" barreled 9mm compared to a .357 Magnum in a 2" barrel?

Again, you do not count the cylinder of a revolver as the barrel. You were so intent on looking up which 9mm round can slightly out perform (in numbers) picked 357 Magnum rounds out of a certain barrel length... now take your internet time, that you have, and look up why you don't include the cylinder of a revolver as the barrel.
 
Well if you want more zip from your snub .357....


Buffalo Bore is the way to go.



3 inch S&W J frame:

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1302 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC (jacketed hollow cavity) = 1299 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1398 fps <--- my load!
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1476 fps

So that makes it alot more than a hot 9mm. I use a Ruger Security Six, 2 3/4 inch barrel I had made into a round butt (like a Speed Six with adjustable sights!)

Makes your snub .357 a real good hiking gun!

And gang, I'm a Glock man who carries a Glock 26 with +P+ Winchester 127gr ammo. But the .357 has it's place!

Deaf
 
hints
barrel length matters, always did, always will
powder charge matters, always did, always will

(pick any caliber you like, I do, but comparing apples and oranges always was a silly game, always will be)
 
Does anyone really think any of this would make any difference to someone on the receiving end?

Jim
 
Plus the .357 comes in 200 grain hardcast, which the 9mm definitely does not. For when you have to kill a dump truck.
 
Jim, those pluses don't give a whole lot more in fps, but they sure do in $$$. :D
 
To some up this thread ....the general performance of one caliber can over lap the general performance of a different caliber by varying the load specs of each.

Thanks for sharing
 
Last edited:
Yes, I have done my own chronographing and the .357 125 grainers are pretty wimpy, all flash bang, out of a 2" gun. My 9x19 pushes a 115 grain JHP to 1263/410 ft lbs, shoots it into 3.5" at 25 yards from the bench, is 14 ounces and rides in a pocket. It is far more controllable, too, than my SP101 with a 140 JHP. Now, that gun put up over 1300 fps for 550 ft lbs as I recall, got the numbers somewhere, with a 140 speer JHP and with a 180 grain XTP over 13.8 grains of AA#9 it shot just over 1300 fps for 662 ft lbs. That blows the 9 out of the water. So, if you want a .357 load in your snub that will outperform a 9x19, just get a heavier bullet. It doesn't accelerate down the bore as quickly and catches more of the pressure peak of that slower burning powder. However, you still pay for it in a pocket sized gun with recoil and muzzle blast. The nine is still much more pleasant to shoot. SO, in my 3" Taurus 66 belt gun I tote 140 Speers over 17 grains 2400. They're near 600 ft lbs in that gun. In my pocket nine, I tote the above mentioned load. I don't mess with 125 grain stuff even in longer barrels.They do perform best in a 4" or better gun. They're rough on forcing cones, though.
 
the barrel length favors the revolver because it's not a sealed system...you have a barrel gap and forcing cone and gas/presure loss...I believe they are measured as such specifically to make it a more even comparrison...that and a barrel is a barrel...and not a barrel and cylinder....so for description puruposes the existing system makes sense. So yeah glock 19 and a 3" .357 would have close to the samer amount of rifled barrel...but a 4" would be the more natural comparrison still IMHO also there is the advantage of the revolver being able to use softer SJ HP ammo with big mushy noses...can't really do that with a semi...so ACTUALLY in my mind a G23 in .40 with a larger HP opening to me would make a 4" .357 and GLOCK 23 in .40 with 135gr ammo to be a more direct comparrison (with 125gr and 135gr bullets...if you move to heavier bullets you gotta go to a 10mm to find close equivalent.

So yeah...I'd consider a hot 135gr .40 to be roughly the equivalent of a federal classic 125gr .357 from a 4" barrel revolver...you could say a .357 sig would be the more obvious comparison...but I think the .40 JHP's larger frontal area squares up the .357's advanatage there in bullet design limitations and the .357 mag having a bit more top-end..but the .40 being a tad heavier. In a GLOCK 22 at least it ought to be darn close in the real world on say a small deer or coyote at reasonable ranges (inside 40-50 yards)...if the woods are your ballistic lab then that ought to be close.

A 9mm even super hot with a GD 124gr is not going to do what a 125gr federal classic will...not quite...I don't have jello tests for that...but shoot and see enough varmints and critters shot and you develope a sense of what works how well...and it doesn't really always translate to paper...I have 9mm's I like...but a good sized feral dog or yote would take 3-5 rounds to put down hard vs 1 with a .357 usually and 1 (maybe 2 occassionally) with a .40 loaded as above. I love my .45 to but oddly it doesn't seem to drop things as well but part of that is I never seem to have that when I get to shoot at something that needs a hole (luck in reverse)...unless you put the .460 rowland kit on the 1911 (185gr @ 1550 FPS!-LOL) 210 pound buck on the wall says that drops em in 1....but 9mm ain a .357....40 might be closer...all I'm sayin -YMMV
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

CDW4ME
  • Locked
Ruger LCP, Kel-Tec P3AT, S&W 442
Replies
0
Views
526
CDW4ME
CDW4ME
CDW4ME
  • Locked
Glock 19, 19C, 23, 32 and the winner is?
Replies
9
Views
655
CDW4ME
CDW4ME
CDW4ME
  • Locked
357 Sig vs 40 S&W for SD which do you prefer?
2
Replies
32
Views
4K
JRWhit
JRWhit
CDW4ME
  • Locked
Why the 357 Sig Glock 32 is my current carry choice.
2
Replies
30
Views
7K
mavracer
mavracer
CDW4ME
  • Locked
Kahr PM9 pocketable 9mm
Replies
4
Views
722
CDW4ME
CDW4ME
Back
Top