9mm Plated and Unique?

[Gdbyrd]

Getting ready to start reloading some 115grn plated 9mm bullets. The only suitable powder I can find locally is Unique. Alliant lists 6.3grn as their max load. I have never reloaded plated bullets period, let alone 9mm. I do reload quite a bit of 44 magnum.

I have read elsewhere that a good baseline load is 5.5 grains of Unique for the 115grn bullet. Can anyone else confirm or give a suggestion? Also, is 1.125" an acceptable OAL.

Thanks.

 

[RugerOldArmy]

Unique is wonderful for 9x19 and 115 (or 124) Gr bullets.

Stick to lead info, or just a tad above for plated. Each gun is a rule unto itself. Experiment.

Personally, I've gotten better results from jacketed, coated, and lead, than plated.

Others report satisfaction. I tried Berry's and Raineer. My best success was near the upper end of lead data.

I'll likely never order them again, for the coated gives me better accuracy, and lower cost. Jacketed is my ideal, if you ignore cost.

 

[Walkalong]

http://www.berrysmfg.com/faq-q9-c1-How_do_I_load_Berrys_Preferred_Plated_Bullets.aspx

5.5 Grs should be fine, maybe even a little light.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

You should have no problems at all except that 5.5 is about .2gr under the customary 10% reduction that a lot of us follow. That doesn't mean it won't work, it depends on the gun your using.

I would go to 5.7gr myself and start from there. .2 of a grain from that point shouldn't mean much. Unique works very well in 9mm, it doesn't meter very well through a powder measure though, so be prepared for that.

It's very forgiving if your loads are off by .2 of a gr so that won't be a worry, especially as light as your loading.

Good luck

 

[GLOOB]

10% reduction to get a starting load. Then 10% more reduction for cast. So he's fine starting at 5.5. I have found my max load for my specific 124 gr cast 9mm bullet is about 23% less than max for a 124gr XTP, using Unique, in my particular guns, just as an example. This from a reliability standpoint - no kabooms, or anything. But 5.5 is fine to start, only don't load up 500 of them, just yet.

5.5 Grs should be fine, maybe even a little light.

If they're Berry's, I suspect you can load them higher, too. Berry's shoot pretty similarly to jacketed - just take off a smidge. But some plated bullets shoot a lot like cast. And your gun's bore/leade is also a factor. 5.5 could be too high. Nothing dangerous, mind you. I would probably start at 5.5gn for an unknown plated. More than likely it will shoot and cycle just fine.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

Don't mean to disagree with you but Ranier is the only plated bullet company that I've seen says to use lead data.

All the others I've used say to use midrange jacketed data and 6.3 gr is max from Alliant is for Gold Dots which are plated bullets.

10% reduction takes you to 5.7 gr. With Unique a .2gr swing either direction is not uncommon. Any way it swings the OP is safe and his gun should function.

 

[GLOOB]

Gold Dots might as well be jacketed. I would not go above Gold Dot data for a "true jacketed bullet," just because. (I do venture beyond max book data when I want to, for various other reasons). I consider Gold Dot data to be jacketed data. It's thickness of the jacket/plating and sizing of the bullet that make the difference - not whether the core was swaged into the jacket vs electroplated.

Plated bullets run the spectrum. Gold Dots are not your average plated bullets. Rainier's are not your average plated bullets. If you do not know what kind of bullets you have, they might be average. Might not.

A starting cast load would be 5.1 gr, using the 10% rules. I wouldn't start there, myself. I would start at 5.5 or sure, maybe 5.7. No prob. But I know my gun and my powder and I also am not skeared of starting right where I think I need to be, and possibly having to work DOWN.

 

[Walkalong]

Ranier used to publish data for their plated bullets, but changed and started saying to use lead data.

Berrys says to use hard cast lead to starting with middle jacketed in one place and use jacketed in another on their site.

They have some links to data with their bullets as well.

Old Ranier Links. Might take some time to load.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6195350&postcount=11

I have shot a bunch of Ranier 115 Gr plated bullets and they run neck and neck similar velocities to 115 Gr jacketed when loaded the same.

 

[mdi]

You will have no problems if you start at lead bullet data for your plated bullets. No need to overcomplicate/overthink you're reloading of plated bullets. So what if your plated bullet 9mm velocities are 100 fps slower than someone else's load? Are your targets gonna know the difference? A lot of discussion has come and gone about starting loads for plated bullets, but what does it really matter? If you get an accurate load at 989 fps from your 9mm, what will be the downside from 1127 fps? I would suggest you use just plain old lead bullet data, at least until you get some reloading experience under your belt (say 6 to 9 months of reloading good, safe, accurate ammo). I've been reloading for 30 years mostly with lead bullets and for a tried plated bullets a couple years ago. I have loaded 45 ACP, 9mm, 38 Special, .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum, both lead load data and mid-jacketed data, and honestly I can't tell any difference in accuracy or the holes in paper or soda cans.

 

[Gdbyrd]

Thank you all for the advice. I failed to mention this will be run in a pistol and a carbine. I know fps doesn't go up that much in 9mm, but do you think the 5.5 grains is still a safe bet? I'm ok going a little higher as I've read accuracy can often improve with unique as you go towards the max load. Of course all guns are different, but any advice is still appreciated.

 

[splattergun]

I have used mid-range jacketed data with excellent results with both Unique and W231, using 124 gr Berry's

 

[Conservidave]

I dont think a 9mm case will hold much more than 6.0 unique and still seat a bullet will it?

 

[GLOOB]

You can probably get just around 6.3 under a 115 grain bullet uncompressed, if you were to settle the powder. But even 5 grains will look like it will compress, right after you dump the powder in.

Remember that Unique is shotgun flake powder. If you were to pack a 9mm case as tight as what I see in a shotgun hull, you could probably fit 7 or 8 grains in there, at least. When you open a shotgun hull loaded with Unique, the entire powder charge can be taken out in one piece, if you're careful.

 

[Blue68f100]

The only problem you may have with unique is that it meters like crapppp... Most powder dispenses have a problem with metering it accurately and consistently. Particularly on a progressive press. On a SS press you can make it work with tapping the handle at top and bottom of the strok. The best I get is ±0.2 gr so be warned. Besides it a dirty powder in my book unless your pushing near max.

 

[steve4102]

Don't mean to disagree with you but Ranier is the only plated bullet company that I've seen says to use lead data.

All the others I've used say to use midrange jacketed data and 6.3 gr is max from Alliant is for Gold Dots which are plated bullets.

Not entirely accurate.

First Rainier does not recommend lead data, They recommend Jacketed Data.

Load Data
Rainier recommends using commercially published jacketed bullet load data when loading our bullets. There is no need for adjustment when using jacketed bullet load data. Our bullets are jacketed using an electroplating process and are softer than traditionally jacketed bullets. Be sure to use only load data that is published in a reputable reloading manual.

We recommend a starting powder charge directly between the listed minimum and maximum load.

http://www.rainierballistics.com/load-data/

Second, Other plated bullets like Berry, do not recommend using Midrange Jacketed Data. They recommend we "Start" with midrange jacketed data or use Lead data.

We recommend using hard cast load data or start with mid-range jacketed data. Make sure data is below 1250fps unless you are using a Thick-Plated bullet that we list a higher max velocity for like the 9mm 124gr HBRN-TP that can be shot to 1500fps in open class guns like a .38 Super. Keep in mind that since our plated bullet has the same pressure curve as a hard cast bullet, the published cast data will be very close to what you will get with our plated bullets. If you use Jacketed data with our plated bullets you can get from 5% - 8% increase in velocity using that data.

http://www.berrysmfg.com/faq-q21-c1-Load_Data_for_Berrys_Preferred_Plated_Bullets.aspx

 

[Walkalong]

The other Berrys page on loading their plated bullets, as linked to above.

We do not research or publish the load data, but you can use any published load data for a jacketed or lead bullet as long as it is the same weight bullet. Any of the load data books or the powder manufacturers’ website should have that information for you, as long as you keep them under 1250 fps for our standard bullet or 1500fps for the bullets designated as TP (thick plate).

If a COL or OAL is needed please email [email protected] for further information.

http://www.berrysmfg.com/faq-q9-c1-How_do_I_load_Berrys_Preferred_Plated_Bullets.aspx

And it looks like Ranier has changed their recommendation again. For a long time they recommended lead data, before they published load data (By Accurate I believe.)

 

[GLOOB]

Yeah, I remember when Rainier recommended cast data. And Berry's recommended START to MIDRANGE jacketed data.

I remember when I thought I knew better and would attempt to use the same charges as with my jacketed bullets.

I also remember when Rainier bullets with max jacketed data ended up being a gross overcharge in my gun (horrendous recoil and fail to extract every other case), but Berry's worked (barely) and jacketed were normal. I also remember loading up some jacketed an Berry's bullets of the same weight with the same charge, and the Berry's were supersonic while the jacketed were not.

I wonder if anything has really changed with their bullets, physically.

When people load plated bullets a little lower, it's not always cuz they're sissies that are babying their guns and loading light-recoiling plinking ammo. It's because the plated bullets are shooting faster and making more recoil than jacketed. If you work up some hot loads, you might find this out for yourself. Or you might not. Individual guns will vary.

 

[Tcruse]

Plated bullets do not like to be over crimped.

 

[Walkalong]

A long look at tested plated data alongside jacketed data in the same PDF can be eye opening.

 

[mdi]

Hmmm. Much ado about nothing . Sounds like; "... well XX company said...", vs "...well, ZZ company said...". The OP will experience no problems if he uses lead load data. The OP will experience no problems if he uses "mid-range" jacketed data. And, OMG!, the loads even overlap! All bullets will safely exit the gun's barrel using either method and I believe there is no "best" method.

 

[vaalpens]

A long look at tested plated data alongside jacketed data in the same PDF can be eye opening.

Walkalong, that is an interesting response. Maybe I am just from the lower end of the gene pool, but I have no idea if that means plated bullets are good to go, stay away from plated bullets or something else.:banghead: Can you elaborate on what was eye opening when you looked at the plated and jacketed test data alongside each other in the same PDF.

 

[Walkalong]

It means without tested data we cannot say for 100% sure what our pressures are. That said, I shoot, and have shot, a great many plated bullets, some with mid-range jacketed data, but some with max jacketed data. Look at the Hodgdon online data and the Vihtavuori online data and check the plated bullet data closely against the same weight jacketed data and while it is often close, sometimes the plated data is substantially lower.

Starting load lead data can in some cases get you in trouble because in some applications it can stick a plated bullet. If you use lead data just keep that in mind. Make sure every bullet leaves the barrel when using starting lead data. It certainly won't get you in trouble pressure wise.

I don't think you can get into trouble pressure wise with lead data assuming a reasonable OAL. I don't think you can get into trouble with mid-range jacketed data assuming a reasonable OAL. I do believe some top end jacketed data will be over pressure, while some is not.

But I don't have a lab.

 

[rbernie]

I have gone as low as 5.0gr and as high as 6.5gr and usually load up in the 5.8gr range. I've used Berrys and Raniers and Xtreme interchangeably, but usually use Xtreme.

 

[vaalpens]

It means without tested data we cannot say for 100% sure what our pressures are. That said, I shoot, and have shot, a great many plated bullets, some with mid-range jacketed data, but some with max jacketed data. Look at the Hodgdon online data and the Vihtavuori online data and check the plated bullet data closely against the same weight jacketed data and while it is often close, sometimes the plated data is substantially lower.

Starting load lead data can in some cases get you in trouble because in some applications it can stick a plated bullet. If you use lead data just keep that in mind. Make sure every bullet leaves the barrel when using starting lead data. It certainly won't get you in trouble pressure wise.

I don't think you can get into trouble pressure wise with lead data assuming a reasonable OAL. I don't think you can get into trouble with mid-range jacketed data assuming a reasonable OAL. I do believe some top end jacketed data will be over pressure, while some is not.

But I don't have a lab.

Walkalong, thanks for clearing things up for me. If it is difficult for you to determine pressure, just imagine how difficult it is for somebody like me with 5 months reloading experience.

I don't look at pressure data per say, but rather just use it to see if I can get higher velocities with lower pressure. I have been collecting bullet lengths since I started loading, just so I can at least determine if the pressure will go up or down if I use a different bullet based on the bullet length and OAL. I don't know what difference in pressure it makes, but at least I can guess if it is going up or down. Plated bullets I always assumed should be less pressure as a jacketed bullet, unless the length of the bullet is longer. I also verify the diameter of the bullets. If they are .356" vs .355", then I assume the pressure could be higher and maybe I need to start .1gr lower. When it comes to thickness of the plating, who knows if it impacts pressure or not. Hopefully by staying between the lines, watching the COL, and don't overcrimp it, then hopefully I will keep the pressure in check.

But I don't have a lab.

Are you sure? You could have fooled us.

 

[GLOOB]

I don't worry one bit about pressure in a locked breech semi auto up until my cases start to bulge in the feed ramp area. Unless that happens, the pressure doesn't matter to me or my particular guns. AFAIK. (I hear that 1911s otoh might peen the breech face or wear out locking lugs.)

Sometimes faster powders can give u better accuracy and/or cleaner burn and/or better economy. Lower pressure doesn't always give a real advantage. Assuming you stick with respectable data and work up carefully if you stray from the reservation.