9mm SWC in production now

[MissouriBullet]

Ok, we got the custom moulds in before we really expected and put them right to work. This is the 125 grain SWC .356 bullet for which we have had many requests; it looks like a miniature H&G #68.

Anyhow, here's a photo. Not on the website yet but will be on Monday.

Thanks/Brad

 

[oldreloader]

Dang it ! I just ordered friday!!

 

[ConcernedCitizen]

Looks nice! I might have to finally make the switch to lead in 9mm...

 

[wcavasos]

Sounds great. Thanks for the update, I'll have to see if they cycle in the hi power or the xd. I have my doubts about the hi power but there is only one way to find out.

 

[LiveLife]

How cute. Baby SWC bullets.

Now I gotta try those!

 

[digbmx4130]

I can't wait to get some loaded up, thanks again. My next trip I will be stocking up for the winter.

 

[noylj]

Nice looking bullet. Just the right weight--for me.

 

[Sunray]

Look a lot like a TC to me. TC's feed well through my BHP. I'd have to rummage around to see if the TC's I was using were straight to the bullet body or not. Been a while.

 

[john16443]

My apologies to all. My original message is related to the 9 cone bullet, NOT the new 9mm SWC described here. Of course, if anyone can help me out with the 9 cone, I'd be most thankful. John
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I can vouch that these are nice looking and easy loading bullets from MBC as I took delivery of one of Brads early batches earlier this month.

I've had a chance to shoot 100 of them with various loads noted below, but am still experiencing significant keyholing of these bullets. Hard to believe that I see the entire bullet profile on the targets about 30% of the time. I've talked to Brad about this but want to experiment more. I apply enough bell so I'm not shaving lead, and I use a separate taper crimp die on my last station to reach 0.375 to 0.377". Feeding or ejecting has NOT been an issue.

Loads tried:
4.5g W231 @ 1.08" COL Brad suggested this load as another customer was having sucess with 4.5g with his 147 g bullets. He also referenced this COL as noted in this topic. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=593514

4.3g W231 @ 1.08" and 1.10" COL

4.0g Titegroup @ 1.08"

I have more loaded up for testing this week at 1.12 and 1.14" COL with 4.3g W231, as well as some with 4.1g W231 @ 1.108" COL.

I am open to any and all suggestions from those more experienced reloaders, because I am at a complete loss as to why this is happening. I've loaded many other non-FMJ 9mm bullets from Berrys and Billy Bullets along with several thousand Zero's and never had this problem.

Thanks in advance;

 

[MissouriBullet]

Look a lot like a TC to me. TC's feed well through my BHP. I'd have to rummage around to see if the TC's I was using were straight to the bullet body or not. Been a while.

It actually is a SWC. Here's our truncated cone bullet (the 9 Cone):

 

[Quoheleth]

Marking this for further reading and follow-up.

 

[noylj]

key-holing:
1) what is groove diameter of barrel and what is bullet diameter?
2) Are you getting leading and if so, where?
3) Have you compared fast powder (bullseye, AA2) and slow powder (Herco, HS6) and light vs near max loads?
4) I have hit certain bullet/powder/charge combinations that have produced key-holing, but I haven't figured out why. Assume that the many other good-to-excellent powder/charge combinations are more worth while to follow-up than the odd load that key-holes. Sometimes it has been a single bullet out of the 5 or 10 shot group. Cases all looked fine.
5) It would really be nice to recover each bullet and inspect the rifling marks.
6) I have heard that short COL will produce more key-holing than a long COL, but I have never tested it

 

[LiveLife]

I am curious. Could you post the picture of key-holed target?

On a previous thread last year, target paper tearing due to lack of hard cardboard backing was mistakenly considered key-holing.

 

[john16443]

I am curious. Could you post the picture of key-holed target?

On a previous thread last year, target paper tearing due to lack of hard cardboard backing was mistakenly considered key-holing.

Will post photos and dimensions after work today.

I hear you about a lack of backing on the targets bds, but this is clearly not that in my opinion. When a RN or TC bullet pushes through paper, there is a normally a circular dark spot left on the paper. I have targets where I'll see 1 or 2 circular dark spots, and the others are perfect profiles of the bullets with the dark spot all around the profile on the paper. That's telling me it isn't just a tear, but a tumble.

noylj - I've got some longer ones loaded and ready for the range tomorrow, also dropped down to 4.1 gr W231 at 1.108 COL. Some are loaded all the way out to 1.14", which barely covers the blue lube groove. There is an awful lot of straight body showing on these rounds. They chamber and eject, so we'll see what happens.

Retrieving the bullets is not an option as I shoot at an indoor range.

I don't have a slower powder than W231, but I do have WST, Titegroup, and Bullseye. The Titegroup experiment noted above wasn't successful, but it was also at a short COl. May try some WST next.

No leading issues noted, I may have a very small amount at the breach end that is easily removed with solvent and wire brush. The chore boy treatment removes the very fine pieces that I see on my cleaning mat. No strips or anything like that. This is happening in my Ruger SR9, and the barrel is cleaned after each weekly range session that consists of about 200 rounds.

I have been shooting exclusively FMJ and plated bullets through the SR9 until now, and I didn't do anything to try to remove any and all traces of copper before shooting the lead. As I keep the barrel clean after each session, and am not experiencing problems with leading, I'm thinking this is not a probable cause.

 

[LiveLife]

John, no worries. With the vast combined knowledge, experience and resources of THR, there hasn't been too many problems that weren't resolved to satisfaction.

 

[J_McLeod]

Loads tried:
4.5g W231 @ 1.08" COL Brad suggested this load as another customer was having sucess with 4.5g with his 147 g bullets. He also referenced this COL as noted in this topic. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=593514

Is the 147gr a typo? That's has to be at or above max with Win 231 and MBC 147gr. I shoot mine around 3.4gr of 231.

 

[john16443]

Is the 147gr a typo? That's has to be at or above max with Win 231 and MBC 147gr. I shoot mine around 3.4gr of 231.

Not a typo. The load and bullet weight is what Brad related to me by email. I'll verify the exact text tonight. Note that I tried this 4.5 grain load and it wasn't overly stout.

I've run across other information that leads me to believe it will be worth loading some tests at 3.7 grains 231 for these 125grain cones. That will be tonight task for tomorrows testings.

 

[J_McLeod]

Not a typo. The load and bullet weight is what Brad related to me by email. I'll verify the exact text tonight. Note that I tried this 4.5 grain load and it wasn't overly stout.

I've run across other information that leads me to believe it will be worth loading some tests at 3.7 grains 231 for these 125grain cones. That will be tonight task for tomorrows testings.

I bought a pack of147gr Lead from /K in Tucson and 3.4 worked great with them, then bought some MBC 147. It's a little light, so 3.5-6 is the lowest to cycle through my XD.

 

[john16443]

Dimensions and photos as requested by bds and noylj:

Measured a sample of 10 bullets with the calipers, 8/10 measured 0.3560", 2/10 measured 0.3555". Very consistent I must say, kudo's to Brad at MBC. All measurements were made on the body below the lube groove, and care was taken not to measure any stray lube or the beveled base.

Next took one of these measured rounds and used it to slug my barrel at the crown end. Lubed one up and tapped it in flush. used a dowel from the breech end and tapped it out. The measurement of the groove diameter is 0.355". This tells me that the bullets are sized OK for my barrel, correct?

Here are the photos of some targets, I've included the bullets as well. If this would be a tear, I should still find the rest of the paper behind the target, and if I could fold it back in place, a round hole should be visible. Here you can clearly see there is no paper behind the target, and the hole profile matches the bullet perfectly.







And I went back to my email from Brad and confirmed he said another customer was using 4.5 grains W231 with the MBC 147 grain bullets.

I think I really need the subject matter experts for this one!

Thanks;

John

 

[LiveLife]

That's some flipping bullets!


I think this thread just got VERY interesting ... curious how we go from here.

Well THR, do your thing! We got another very interesting challenge to solve.


For me, to rule out the obvious, could you post the picture of your muzzle crown (end of your barrel) to see if there is any deformation that may eject the high pressure gas unevenly to start the bullet tumbling?

Also, what distance was the target?

 

[noylj]

Below are my records for 125gn cast bullets.

125gn L-RN 4.5 gn 231/HP38 COL=1.160
125gn L-RN 5.5gn AA5 COL=1.160
125gn L-RN 3.5gn Bullseye COL=1.160
125gn L-RN 5.0gn Power Pistol COL=1.160
125gn L-RN 4.0gn TiteGroup COL=1.160
Titegroup was the most accurate

125gn L-RNFP Red Dot 3.0 COL=1.039 2.11"@25yds
125gn L-RNFP Red Dot 3.5 COL=1.039 1.13"@25yds
125gn L-RNFP Red Dot 4.0 COL=1.039 2.25"@25yds
125gn L-RNFP Silhouette 4.0 COL=1.039 1.50"@25yds
125gn L-RNFP Silhouette 4.5 COL=1.039 2.81"@25yds

I would:
1) clean barrel with an ammonia cleaner to get out any copper (shouldn't be a big problem, but who knows)
2) This has worked for me. Lead in the breech is a bullet that is too hard or a bullet that is too small (equal or less than groove diameter).
I am sure that these bullets are harder than you need. The "standard" fix is to try near max loads of slower powders to get the hard bullet to obdurate.
My "non-standard" solution has been to tumble lube the bullets in Lee Liquid Alox. Take 10-50 bullets and place on their side in a flat-bottom pan. Warm up some LLA in a cup of hot water (I generally put the container in a cup of water and "nuke" it for about 30-60 seconds. Squirt a little LLA in the pan and shuffle the bullets around like dominoes (though you will want to put a little roll in your hands to get the bullets to roll around in the LLA like pigs in mud). After about 30-60 seconds, look at the bullets. They should all have a shiny/wet look. If they are a golden brown, you use more LLA than needed. If some bullets are not shiny/wet looking, you need to add a little more LLA. Dump the bullets onto wax paper or aluminum foil and let dry for 24 hours. You don't need to stand up the bullets, but some people feel better doing so.
After 24 hours, the bullets are ready to load. If they are still tacky, tough. They are still ready to load. Don't roll them in the dirt and they will stay clean. I just dump them in a cardboard until ready to load. Some people dust them with "Motor Mica," but the tackiness doesn't bother me or the gun.
I have successfully fired undersized bullets this way. The LLA really seems to seal the bore better than a lot of other lubes. These loads will probably be smoky, but you just want to see if it gets rid of the keyholes.
If so, contact Missouri and see if you can get 10-20 sample of:
a) softer bullets (9-12BHN) cast the same as the Cone-9. If these don't keyhole, then you know you need a softer alloy.
and
b) as-cast standard hard alloy (16-20BHN or whatever the Cone-9 come as) bullets. Tumble lube the as-cast bullets. If they shoot without keyholing, you know to order larger diameter bullets.
If both a) and b) work out, then your ideal bullet might just be a softer and larger bullet.
I would expect Missouri to be willing to work with you on this, as it would help them also.

 

[noylj]

John16443 wrote:
Next took one of these measured rounds and used it to slug my barrel at the crown end. Lubed one up and tapped it in flush. used a dowel from the breech end and tapped it out. The measurement of the groove diameter is 0.355". This tells me that the bullets are sized OK for my barrel, correct?

No, this tells you that the bullet is 0.355", unless you can see that the bore actually engraved the groove. I put a bullet in a vise and crank to down so it is 0.358-0.360 and then use that over-sized slug to measure the barrel. This way I KNOW that if I get 0.3555", that the slug has been sized down to that measurement.

 

[LiveLife]

Before we delve further into this issue, how about some basics to help us with root cause analysis?

Typically, what causes key-holing?

 

[john16443]

Target distance I use for load development is 7 yards, hand held. I have a solid, no limpwristing grip. Getting good photos of the crown indoors at night is a challenge, but here's some that should indicate that nothing appears to going on at the 'business end' of the barrel.






And for noylj, that slug I forced down the barrel showed clearly the lands and groves. The 0.355" I measured on the slug matches the 0.355" I measured inside the crown with the calipers. The bullets appear to be at least 0.005" larger than my groves. The MBC site indicates these are normally 18 BHN.

 

[LiveLife]

- So if the muzzle crown is OK (so as to not leak high pressure gas unevenly to wobble the bullet), then something else must be causing the bullet to tumble while it is traveling through air.

- If you didn't get any leading, we could assume that the bullet is getting good grip on the rifling and rotating as it exits the barrel ...

- 7 yards is very close range to tumble a bullet ... I would guess a wobbling bullet to show elongated holes and not sideways bullet.

Question, did you get any key-holing with factory/jacketed bullet?