9mm SWC in production now

[LiveLife]

experiencing significant keyholing ... about 30% of the time.
I use a separate taper crimp die on my last station to reach 0.375 to 0.377".

Any chance that separate "taper crimp" die is Lee Factory Crimp Die (FCD)?

1. At this point, my "probable" guess would be that the bullet is undersized to the barrel and the bullet base is not obturating enough to seal to the barrel and the high pressure gas is leaking unevenly as the bullet is exiting the barrel to cause the bullet to tumble.

2. Also, could you measure the case necks of several finished rounds to see if they are completely circular? (to rule out if the taper crimp die is deforming the bullet out of round - this would cause uneven escaping of high pressure gas as the bullet leaves the barrel).

 

[john16443]

This is the FIRST time I have seen this keyholing with anything. I've shot 1000's of Federal Champion, Blazer Brass, and gun show FMJ reloads through the SR9 prior to reloading (all 115gr), and never had an issue. Since January when I started reloading, I've shot 1000's of Zero and Montana Gold FMJ's, various weights and styles of Berry's (no 147gr though), and even some Black Bullets Intl. moly coated.

This is my first experience with lead in the 9mm, although I load lead in the 45ACP with no issues. I tend to stay at target velocities, and these are on the harder side. Maybe time to get some Power Pistol or Unique, or think about contacting MBC for a trade or something as was mentioned earlier by noylj.

 

[john16443]

There's no chance that my last die is the FCD, 100% sure of that. It is a taper crimp die only. I'll get some dimensions of the case necks tomorrow at work before I shoot them. Tomorrow night I'll also measure some bullets before inserting into the brass, load a couple dummies and then use the inertial bullet hammer to remove them and measure them again. That will give me a before and after diameter for comparison.

 

[LiveLife]

Great!

Keep us posted.

 

[john16443]

Any chance that separate "taper crimp" die is Lee Factory Crimp Die (FCD)?

1. At this point, my "probable" guess would be that the bullet is undersized to the barrel and the bullet base is not obturating enough to seal to the barrel and the high pressure gas is leaking unevenly as the bullet is exiting the barrel to cause the bullet to tumble.

2. Also, could you measure the case necks of several finished rounds to see if they are completely circular? (to rule out if the taper crimp die is deforming the bullet out of round - this would cause uneven escaping of high pressure gas as the bullet leaves the barrel).

1) I don't see how the bullets are undersized. The bullet I lubed and pounded flush into my crown clearly shows the lands and grooves of the barrel, and the grooves are at least 0.0005" smaller than the bullets. As an experiment though, I will try to segregate a sample of 50 into groups that measure 0.356 or greater and those that measure less than 0.356. That can be another control group. There is a possibility that I'm not getting obturation, the barrel is 4.14" long on the SR9. Other than using a slower powder than W231 (which I don't have), what can I do to get more oturation?

2) Dimensions of my bullets at the case neck are noted below. The tables show measurements for 5 of the MBC 125grain TC bullets (9 Cone), followed by dimensional information for 5 Berrys 124 grain plated RN bullets I have with me for my range session this evening. Each completed cartridge was measured at the case neck at 120 degree increments to ensure 3 different measurements around the circumference. Other than the adjustment for the seating depth, there were NO other changes made to any of the dies in the other 3 stations of my Lee turret press. All Federal brass with CCI SP primers.

MBC 9 Cone

#1 0.376 0.376 0.376
#2 0.3755 0.3755 0.375
#3 0.376 0.376 0.3765
#4 0.376 0.376 0.376
#5 0.376 0.376 0.376


Berrys 124gr Plated RN

#1 0.3765 0.3765 0.3765
#2 0.3765 0.3765 0.377
#3 0.3765 0.3765 0.377
#4 0.376 0.3765 0.3765
#5 0.3765 0.377 0.377

For this style/shape bullet, is the "customary" seating depth similar to what is used for SWC style bullets? In other words, should I leave about a thumbnail thickness of the transition from straight wall to cone showing above the top of the case? For the record, I've loaded them from 1.08" (wall transition almost flush with case mouth) to 1.14" (just covering the lube band), and all run through my mags, chamber and eject fine under hand cycling conditions. I'v shot the shorter ones and will be shooting the longer ones tonight.

 

[res45]

The only time I've ever had issues with keyholing is when the bullet want engage the rifle enough to impart the proper spin on the bullet,the bullet is either to small to begin with or to hard to bump up and fill the bore.

I've had this happen in my Ruger BH using the Hornady 158 gr. swagded SWC and SWC HP bullets they keyhole about 50% of the time no matter what load I tried with them. My Ruger will shoot a .359 to .360 dia. bullet of any alloy BHN accurately with no isses.

My 9mm is the same a .356 dia. cast lead bullet doesn't keyhole as much but it still does on occasion bullet weight and load doesn't make any difference,using a .357 dia. cast bullet eliminated the problem.

Both my Ruger Revolver and my 9mm semi both seem to have very shallow grooves so a good tight fitting bullet seem to cure the problem. It's also a good idea not to over taper crimp lead bullets as you can easily downsize them which defeats the whole purpose of shooting the correct size bullet in the first place.

 

[LiveLife]

John, those measurements would indicate that finished rounds are round.

If your SR9 barrel is .355" and the 9 Cone bullets are .356", you should have proper bullet-to-barrel fit. If your SR9 barrel is more like .356", then as res45 posted, bullets sized .357" would work better, but I am going by your barrel measurement of .355".

With that bullet-to-barrel fit, your 4.14" SR9 barrel should stabilize the bullet. My Glock 27 with even shorter 3.46" Lone Wolf barrel stabilizes the 18 BHN Missouri Bullet well enough to produce comparable shot groups as Glock 22 in 9mm/40S&W using W231 powder, which is my preferred powder that I have gotten good accuracy and no leading loads with. BTW, the Lone Wolf barrel measures at .355" for 9mm.

Could you redo your load work up to see if you get key-holing from start to max or at certain powder charges? When I did my load work up for 125 gr RN (SmallBall), I used 3.8, 3.9, 4.0, 4.1, 4.2, 4.3, 4.4 gr charges and 1.08"-1.10" OAL.

My experience with 18 BHN 9mm/40S&W Missouri Bullet is that they do not need to be pushed with high-max load data to obturate properly. I find that mid to high range load data works well in .355" 9mm and .400" 40S&W barrels, and even start charges for 180 gr TCFP 40S&W.

 

[Galil5.56]

I would strongly look at sizing as the prime culprit... Either too small initially, or becoming too small during loading.

 

[john16443]

OK, I had some measure of success at the range this evening with these 125gr TC's. I had 3 more sets of test cartridges ready to go, here are the results.

3.8 grains W231 at 1.12" COL - NO KEYHOLING in any of the 17 shots. I'll use this as a starting point for further development.

4.5 grains W231 at 1.14" COL - out of 25 total fired cartridges, 11 showed clear signs of keyholing. I don't think this would improve even if I set COL to 1.12".

4.8 grains WST at 1.12" COL - out of 50 total fired cartridges, 15 showed clear keyholing, several more showed lesser evidence.

I'm off to the garage to do some measuring before and after seating and applying a taper crimp. I'll post those results later.

It's interesting to see that so far, most of the 'conventional wisdom' I've received indicated that I need to get more speed and use a slower powder. At least so far it seems that slowing down is better in my gun, once again proving that every gun is different.

 

[LiveLife]

Thanks for the range test update - I think you had quite a few of us holding our breath!

"Holes on target speak volumes!"

Yes, it is for this reason why a full-range work up is so valuable. For me, the accuracy of shot groups (and in this case, whether they key hole or not) is the ultimate judge as long as the load cycles the slide well and extract reliably.

BTW, any leading from the 3.8 gr loads?

So, what would be your next work up loads? 3.9 - 4.0 gr?

 

[Bill in Utah]

I bought quite a few of these my self and got out today after loading 50 of them with Clays (3.0gn which is my "standard" load with Missouri's 124 lead round nose)

All of them cycled the 9mm pistols that we had along (XD tactical, Ruger SR9C, S&W M&P 9c and Ruger P85Mkii) but with every gun we had serious key holing at around 40-50 feet. The 9C did have a few rounds that did not but it was the only one.

Never had any problems with the standard MBC 9mm 124gn RN (other than having to load them with a short OAL to chamber in most pistols) with this load.

I'll be watching to see what people think and maybe get a hold of Missouri Bullet and see what he suggests. I may load another 50 more with .3 more powder and see if that helps. Seeing that others have loaded W231/HP38 with same key holing will keep me from trying that powder (I have some of that I was going to try)

Take care, Bill

 

[john16443]

Finished my measurements last night for these bullets before and after loading. Happy to report that there was no reduction in diameter at the base from the original dimension. I did find that my taper crimp die (not using a FCD) may be a little deep as I saw a groove in the lead bullet at the case mouth. This groove measured 0.350" whereas the rest of the bullet measured 0.3555". I backed off the die so that I see only a very faint hint of an indentation in the bullet. Don't know if this may have been contributing to the keyholing, but want to eliminate as many variables as possible.

Next steps for me are to:

1) Validate the 3.8 gr load of W231 @ 1.12" with a lot of 50 cartridges
2) If successful, work from there to 4.0 grains, maybe work down slightly as well
3) If successful, zero in on what gives me the best accuracy
4) If NOT successful, sell the remainder, my SR9 (and maybe Bill's SR9C) just don't like these bullets, once again proving that every gun is different.

5) Looking seriously at the Dardas 122 grain flat point, or the 124 grain Black Bullets that I've used successfully before trying the MBC's in the SR9.

 

[LiveLife]

Join the club.

Welcome to my world. The joy of reloading for multiple pistols (ours, family/relatives/friends/even neighbors whoever want to shoot with us at the range), multiple semi-auto and revolver calibers, powders AND bullets (jacketed/plated/lead) - not to mention full power, target and light plinking loads everyone seems to request.

Looks like you are close to dialing-in the load for 9 Cone bullet. There are certain pistol/barrel/bullet/powder combinations that work better than others. It is one of many reasons why I like using Lone Wolf barrels in Glocks and prefer to shoot other lead loads in M&P40/45. I think 1911 and lead bullets are like peanut butter and jelly.

Keep us posted.

 

[Quoheleth]

John16443,

I would like to also add a 6th option and that's purchase some of MBC's other fine 9mm bullets. I've run both his 115gr Parabellum and 125gr Smallball in my KT PF9, M&P9, SR9c, and CZ 85 with outstanding accuracy over a wide range of powders and charges. I've always meant to order a box of the 147gr Subsonics but somehow forget each time. I've heard good things about those as well.

Try another MBC bullet. You might find them to your liking.

Q

 

[john16443]

Thanks Q, I am already a happy customer of MBC is 45ACP lead bullets, having used many of various styles. This "9 cone" is one of their newest offerings, and I took advantage of their 'introductory pricing'. Call it beta testing if you will.

There are other suppliers out there with excellent 9mm products such as Dardas, Matercast (IL), Penn, and many more I probably don't even know about. I'll play the field with some small quantity purchases, I'm sure I'll find one that my SR9 likes. If I don't find a match in lead, I know it likes Black Bullets, Intl. and Billy Bullets, which are very competitively priced compared to lead. Berry's would be the alternative after that.

Time to go load up some more for additional testing!

 

[noylj]

1) there should be no indentation in the bullet. You aren't crimping the bullet so much as simply removing the flare/bell from the case mouth.
2) This is almost the very first time that my COL has been smaller than the poster's. I am usually at 1.080" COL.
3) Given the number of guns that you have found to key-hole, I am left scratching my head.
Still would like to see what happens with an LLA-treatment.

For 9mm, I find that there is no beating a jacketed hollow-point. Considering the price of most 9mm cast and plated bullets, I am turning to Montana Gold, Precision Delta, and Zero Bullets. The following is what I see for FP/TC 9mm bullets:
Dardas Bullets: $58/1000 for 122gn FP
Meister Cast Bullets: $93.71/1000 for 122gn L-FP.
Berry's Bullets: $86.45/1000 for 124gn FP
Zero Bullets (Roze Distribution): $110.65 for 125gn FMJFP
Montana Gold: $300/3750 for 124gn FMJ or $308/3750 for 124gn JHP (eq. to $80/1000 and $82.13/1000).

 

[john16443]

Range Update

It appears that I'm zeroing in on the working range for these MBC 125 grain TC bullets with W231. Loadings at 3.8 gr @1.12" previously tested and didn't show keyholing, yesterday I shot a box of 50, again no keyholing. This load works, but is smokey as all get out.

Had a test of 15 loaded with 4.0 gr @ 1.12", again no keyholing and less smoke. Will work up to about 4.2 gr to see if these work.

Tested these two loads at a COL of 1.163" and all worked well, no keyholing. This was done to decease the distance from bullet to the start of the rifling, which they say has better accuracy potential for lead bullets.

Tested 4.1 gr @ 1.108" and found keyholing with this load and length combination. Looks like my min. COL will be 1.12 and powder at least 4.0, will work up to 4.2 and see what happens with the remainder of these bullets I have.

Ordered a pack of 100 Dardas 122FP sized a .356 and another 100 pack sized at .357. Also took noylj's advice and ordered 1K of the Montana Gold 124gr JHP's I found FS cheap on another forum.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Well update from me.

Load up 50 of the Clays 3.0gn, 1.120 OAL (Spoke to Brad and he suggested longer OAL than my last batch) and shot those in XD Tactical and Ruger SR9C. Only had 2 shots out of the Sr9C that key-holed then every other shot was okay. Everything out of the XD was good.

Loaded up 50 with 5.3gn of AA#5 (sorry Brad thought I had HS6 but not enough) and OAL of 1.120 and smokey but no key holing. Loaded another 20 with 4.2gn of W231 and OAL of 1.120 and no Key-holing out of a S&W MP full size.

I'm getting some leading in every weapon I've shot them but its slight. A few swipes with the copper boy wrapped around a brush takes care of it with no problems.

Still going to keep trying to get some loads that are less leading and more accurate (I was trying to get to the bottom of the key-holing first) and will chrono them soon.

Bill

 

[jcerillo70]

Do we use the same data for the 9mm 125 gr swc as the RN ?

im using W231 as well