9mm VS .45ACP ... against alligators
- Thread starter Alan Fud
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Missouri Mule
Member
I'm thinking Marlin 30-30. But since you asked about a handgun, I honestly believe I would NOT feel overly confident with either of your choices. For a critter that could potentially find out if I taste like chicken I absolutely want "More Power!"
I would begin by considering a hot tmj 10mm in a 1911 then move up from there.
I would begin by considering a hot tmj 10mm in a 1911 then move up from there.
As for all large dangerous game, penetration, penetration, penetration.
Either round in the hottest +p FMJ round you can find.
You're still rolling the dice either way since a gator is so nerve deadened that it'll probably still charge and chew you a bit even after you score a brain/heart/major organ hit. Don't count on it bleeding out.
I think a chicken carcass thrown as a distraction while you ran, would work better.
Either round in the hottest +p FMJ round you can find.
You're still rolling the dice either way since a gator is so nerve deadened that it'll probably still charge and chew you a bit even after you score a brain/heart/major organ hit. Don't count on it bleeding out.
I think a chicken carcass thrown as a distraction while you ran, would work better.
Freightman
Member
The brain on a large gator is about the size of a small walnut, better place your shot good. Even after he is dead he can do considerable damage for a long period of time, GOOD LUCK I want something that is efective a LOT further away than a pistol or revolver.
docbones
Member
Gentlemen,
It has been neat to hear some of the tongue in cheek comments on this subject. But, some of the comments regarding cartridge performance have been outright absurd. I say this out of concern for all of us woodswalkers. As most people know, long before the alligator was listed as an endangered species (1967), it was harvested with abandon. In that non-protected time, I knew men that routinely relied on the .22 LR (one shot between the eyes, mostly H&R revolvers) for most of their dispatch needs and one man who preferred (get ready) a knife. (I also knew one guy who routinely wrestled gators, but, hey, it gets pretty boring in La. and I can only correlate it to tipping cows. Just something to do.) Placement was the point. Any cartridge of decent intensity, when correctly placed, will do the job easily. In any instance where the angle of incidence is too acute in relation to the given target, then penetration could be an issue, of course, with most any caliber. However, just a moderate amount of awareness and a little common sense can go a long way to securing your safety. Gator courtship (a loud process) begins in April and takes place in water (stay out of the water!). From May throught June, the female builds her very large nest, lays her eggs, and jealously guards both (stay out of the water and away from her adjacent nest!). Alligators at any stage in the life cycle are very vocal. Listen and be aware. Of course, all this is to say there is no panacea. But, I would feel fine with either caliber and would definately prefer a centerfire handgun to a rifle, as it is a weapon of opportunity, more easily used under duress and close quarters. Bottom line is to ALWAYS have a gun and to be a good shot with a cool head (Because you will not out run the gator if he is mature and motivated).
Regards,
Docbones
It has been neat to hear some of the tongue in cheek comments on this subject. But, some of the comments regarding cartridge performance have been outright absurd. I say this out of concern for all of us woodswalkers. As most people know, long before the alligator was listed as an endangered species (1967), it was harvested with abandon. In that non-protected time, I knew men that routinely relied on the .22 LR (one shot between the eyes, mostly H&R revolvers) for most of their dispatch needs and one man who preferred (get ready) a knife. (I also knew one guy who routinely wrestled gators, but, hey, it gets pretty boring in La. and I can only correlate it to tipping cows. Just something to do.) Placement was the point. Any cartridge of decent intensity, when correctly placed, will do the job easily. In any instance where the angle of incidence is too acute in relation to the given target, then penetration could be an issue, of course, with most any caliber. However, just a moderate amount of awareness and a little common sense can go a long way to securing your safety. Gator courtship (a loud process) begins in April and takes place in water (stay out of the water!). From May throught June, the female builds her very large nest, lays her eggs, and jealously guards both (stay out of the water and away from her adjacent nest!). Alligators at any stage in the life cycle are very vocal. Listen and be aware. Of course, all this is to say there is no panacea. But, I would feel fine with either caliber and would definately prefer a centerfire handgun to a rifle, as it is a weapon of opportunity, more easily used under duress and close quarters. Bottom line is to ALWAYS have a gun and to be a good shot with a cool head (Because you will not out run the gator if he is mature and motivated).
Regards,
Docbones
JMLV
Member
i LIKE THE IDEA OF THE 762x25
BUT PREFER A TOK. SMALLER GUN THAN THE CZ AND A BIT EASIER TO CARRY. YOU MIGHT JUST WANT TO CARRY ONE FOR BACKUP WHEN WONDERING THE NEIBORHOOD IN "GATOR" SEASON. KEEPING THE 45 AVAIABLE FOR 2 LEGGED CRITTERS YOU AR3 MORE LIKELY TO ENCOUNTER.
BUT PREFER A TOK. SMALLER GUN THAN THE CZ AND A BIT EASIER TO CARRY. YOU MIGHT JUST WANT TO CARRY ONE FOR BACKUP WHEN WONDERING THE NEIBORHOOD IN "GATOR" SEASON. KEEPING THE 45 AVAIABLE FOR 2 LEGGED CRITTERS YOU AR3 MORE LIKELY TO ENCOUNTER.
HankL
Member
If Carlyle wasn't in the hospital I'm sure that he could tell us.
docbones has some good things to say.
docbones has some good things to say.
Lone_Gunman
Member
It is interesting to hear what people who are 1000 miles from the nearest gator would recommend for stopping them...
Either 9mm or 45 will work fine. A 22 LR will work just as well though.
This isnt Jurassic Park. You can leave the artillery at home.
Either 9mm or 45 will work fine. A 22 LR will work just as well though.
This isnt Jurassic Park. You can leave the artillery at home.
If I remember the original story he scooped up his daughter on land when a gator headed for her. So water penetration isn't neccesary as I assume he's smart enough to stay out of the water and isn't hunting them.
Either of the two would be ok, but I'd prefer a Glock 20 10mm loaded with 180+ gr. full load ammo such as Corbon 180 JSP or TexasAmmo 200 gr. XTP or FMJ-FP.
Either of the two would be ok, but I'd prefer a Glock 20 10mm loaded with 180+ gr. full load ammo such as Corbon 180 JSP or TexasAmmo 200 gr. XTP or FMJ-FP.
docbones
Member
On the other hand...
On the other hand, there is a simpler fix, if time allows. Tabasco, high heat and peanut oil gives you delicious results with old Wally Gator and you can then just rename him Stumpy!
Docbones
On the other hand, there is a simpler fix, if time allows. Tabasco, high heat and peanut oil gives you delicious results with old Wally Gator and you can then just rename him Stumpy!
Docbones
zorba
Member
I just came back from FL and was led to believe that gators are protected under FL law, so when would it be legal to shoot them?
Just like with a human, it is legal to shoot them when they posse the danger of death or serious injury to yourself or another party with no course of escape ... meaning if I can see the pupils of his eyes and he's heading in my direction even though I've changed directions, that a good indication that he is interested in me.
And just to clarify, I do have .357's and 10mm's but they are full-size guns and I don't normally carry them as my CCW ... I'm just asking if caught off-guard, which one of my CCW would serve me better against a gator attack.
Thank you for all of the replies.
And just to clarify, I do have .357's and 10mm's but they are full-size guns and I don't normally carry them as my CCW ... I'm just asking if caught off-guard, which one of my CCW would serve me better against a gator attack.
Thank you for all of the replies.
Silver Bullet
Member
I don't have one, but isn't a .357 SIG supposed to be a pretty good penetrator ?
XLMiguel
Member
Freightman made an excellent point about the size of a gator's brain, I would add that it woudl be a good idea to familiarize oneself with alligator anatomy to KNOW where that walnut is and shoot accordingly. When in doubt, stick it in his eye, that should cause the critter to lose interest in you pretyy quickly.
All in all, if you aren't prepared to shoot gators (i.e. with a .357 or 10mm), then you've got to shoot with what's in hand, and it all gets back to shot placement, doesn't it?
I know gators can lung with great velocity, how fast can they go for 10-20 yards, i.e.how hard is it to out run one? Good luck.
All in all, if you aren't prepared to shoot gators (i.e. with a .357 or 10mm), then you've got to shoot with what's in hand, and it all gets back to shot placement, doesn't it?
I know gators can lung with great velocity, how fast can they go for 10-20 yards, i.e.how hard is it to out run one? Good luck.
swampgator
Member
Yes, they are. And unlawfully a gator in Florida is a felony. There is an established hunting season for permitted people to hunt them. The permits are drawn at random from applicants.
That being said, in a bona fide defensive shooting I doubt anything would ever really come of it. And I don't mean an Uncle Ned South Park "he's coming right at me!" shoot.
As for head shooting a gator: As others have posted the brain is extremely small. There is an unprotected spot on the skull extending back from the center of the eye "hump" back down the head towards the tail. Looking at the stuffed 4 footer in my office the area is roughly about 1 1/2 " square.
A .22 lr to this spot will stop a gator.
As an aside, unprovoked alligator attacks are quite rare in Florida. From the FWCC website: "Between 1948 and January 1997, 225 alligator attacks on humans were documented with seven of those resulting in fatalities." You can add in 2 more in North Central Florida since 1999.
General information regarding alligators in Florida, as well as very good links to sites concerning other crocidillians:
http://wildflorida.org/gators/
Hope this helps,
gator
JMLV
Member
dON'T BELEAVE EVERYTHING YOU READ
FROM FISH & WILDLIFE ABOUT GATOR ATTACKS IN FLA OR ELSE WHERE. THEY PREFER TO QUALIFY THEM AS "DROWNINGS" RATHER THAN ATTACKS LOOKSA BETTER TO THE TOURISTS. ALFER ALL IF A gator gets you and noone see's it but the body is found at a later date its easy to say you drowned aND THE GATOR DID "WHAT CAME NATURALLY" AND ATE THE DEAD BODY, CHECK OUT A BOOK CALLED "MANKILLERS" (i THINK) LOTS OF INFO AND RESEARCH IN THERE ON CRITTERS WHO WILL KILL US IF GIVEN HALF THE CHANCE AND THE PEOPLE WHO MAKE A LIVING COVERING UP THE FACTS FOR A variety of reaSONS. i HAVE TO FIND MY COPY TO GET THE AUTHERS NAME. iTS THE SAME WOMAN WHO DID THE BOOK ON COUGER ATTACKS.
FROM FISH & WILDLIFE ABOUT GATOR ATTACKS IN FLA OR ELSE WHERE. THEY PREFER TO QUALIFY THEM AS "DROWNINGS" RATHER THAN ATTACKS LOOKSA BETTER TO THE TOURISTS. ALFER ALL IF A gator gets you and noone see's it but the body is found at a later date its easy to say you drowned aND THE GATOR DID "WHAT CAME NATURALLY" AND ATE THE DEAD BODY, CHECK OUT A BOOK CALLED "MANKILLERS" (i THINK) LOTS OF INFO AND RESEARCH IN THERE ON CRITTERS WHO WILL KILL US IF GIVEN HALF THE CHANCE AND THE PEOPLE WHO MAKE A LIVING COVERING UP THE FACTS FOR A variety of reaSONS. i HAVE TO FIND MY COPY TO GET THE AUTHERS NAME. iTS THE SAME WOMAN WHO DID THE BOOK ON COUGER ATTACKS.
Most animals are only really dangerous when provoked. Unless it IS actively eating your dog/kid/mother in law leave it alone.
docbones
Member
Or...,
When they are hungry and you, your child, or your pet look tasty. Reality. It is inescapable.
Docbones
When they are hungry and you, your child, or your pet look tasty. Reality. It is inescapable.
Docbones
Not a flame, just a statement of personal experience coupled with an uncontrollable, intensely psychotic need to protect my little girl when even the mere thought of some remote danger might pop up in conversation.
I don't care WHAT Fish & Game says... Alligators LOVE dogs and children. All it takes at my favorite campground/fishing spot is one or two of either species to play along the river bank for a few minutes to entice a "swim-by" of an interested Alligator or two.
Fortunately, there's a 3 to 5 foot artificial embankment and a wooden fence spanning the entire length of the bank in that park. Gators can't get up, and properly attended children can't get down.
If I lived where FUD lives, I'd have an electrified, barbed wire fence around my back yard.
I don't care WHAT Fish & Game says... Alligators LOVE dogs and children. All it takes at my favorite campground/fishing spot is one or two of either species to play along the river bank for a few minutes to entice a "swim-by" of an interested Alligator or two.
Fortunately, there's a 3 to 5 foot artificial embankment and a wooden fence spanning the entire length of the bank in that park. Gators can't get up, and properly attended children can't get down.
If I lived where FUD lives, I'd have an electrified, barbed wire fence around my back yard.
I've done some testing of my own of these cals and a few others.
First let me state without any hesitation, a hot loaded 9mm fmj will out penetrate a hot loaded .45 fmj EVERY TIME!
Now that is clear, I don't want people claiming that a .45 has more penetration. It doesn't, accept it.
Bearing that in mind, I would have to take the 9mm over the .45. Even the 9mm may not penetrate but it stands a better chance of doing it than a .45.
First let me state without any hesitation, a hot loaded 9mm fmj will out penetrate a hot loaded .45 fmj EVERY TIME!
Now that is clear, I don't want people claiming that a .45 has more penetration. It doesn't, accept it.
Bearing that in mind, I would have to take the 9mm over the .45. Even the 9mm may not penetrate but it stands a better chance of doing it than a .45.
along the lines of that comment...
the .45 might not have penetrated the helmet, but if a guy was wearing that helmet he might not be "ok" afterwards. Baseball bats are notorious for underpenetration, but many times the dents they make are good enough.
a gator is going to take multiple shots of any handgun round, especially if you don't have the luxury of aiming for it's pea brain or boiler.
I would absolutely stick with the .45. Not because it may or may not be superior to the other bullets, but because you are USED to it.
Good luck...
the .45 might not have penetrated the helmet, but if a guy was wearing that helmet he might not be "ok" afterwards. Baseball bats are notorious for underpenetration, but many times the dents they make are good enough.
a gator is going to take multiple shots of any handgun round, especially if you don't have the luxury of aiming for it's pea brain or boiler.
I would absolutely stick with the .45. Not because it may or may not be superior to the other bullets, but because you are USED to it.
Good luck...
swampgator
Member
No flame on this end, however, realize that alligators associate children and dogs as a food source only after they've been exposed to humans.
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