45Acp fails and 9mm saves the day in shoot out in Ohio

[cratz2]

And, hanging my head low, I agree with Wild Romanian on one issue. Don't take a gun writers word as gospel. Unless you've done actual shooting on a variety of human torsos with varying amounts of clothing and varying amounts of hard cover, how can you know absolutely for sure? You can't. Now to turn it back on BHP9, how much of this have you done? I didn't think so.

Without getting the PETA folks all up in arms, it shouldn't be too hard for most folks to do some of their own testing on live game. Or even recently dead game. Well all know someone that lives in the country and there are plenty of targets out there if you look hard enough. One thing you will find, is FMJ handgun ammo is far less effective at stopping game than any of us would have guessed. I promise you that. Now this won't translate directly to human effectiveness but it's a start.

 

[Double Maduro]

bhp9,

I did a search of the Masillon, Ohio Independent on line for reports of police involved shootings from 01/01/02 untill the present and came up with nothing that matches your story.



http://www.indeonline.com/left.php?...ion=&mainCategory=&mainSpecialStatus=&dateop=>&OP=AND&dateConverted=yes&startrecord=80&maxrecords=10&Count=89

 

[Double Maduro]

if you do a cut and paste on the whole url it will give you the list.

 

[DonGlock26]

Based on the story, it appears the 9mm penetrated and struck the spinal cord. This explains why the 9mm worked. To stop a aggressor, you need shot placement and penetration. Use a heavy JHP in your caliber of choice and pratice.

 

[DeltaElite]

I smell a 9mm troll.

 

[Double Maduro]

Donglock,

There was no report of this happening in the last year and 1/3.

 

[Frohickey]

Only caliber advice that I will believe without independent consultation is that a 28million grain projectile going at 36.7FPS is going to give anyone a very bad day.

Thats a 2 ton SUV going 25MPH.

 

[vanfunk]

Despite his admirable enthusiasm, we must reject BHP9's hypothesis on the grounds that he has failed to cite any relevant, realistic, provable, documented, verified and quantifiable evidence in support of his thesis

Back to the drawing board...
vanfunk

PS- Lest anyone think I'd try to silence this debate - think not!
This is exactly the kind of exchange that keeps the blade of scientific inquiry sharp against nod of complacency. It's just made all the more relevant when we can confine the discourse to the facts.

 

[Island Beretta]

Guys:

I live in a country that has a very high murder rate. 9mm spent shells are the predominant casings retrieved from crime scenes with the occassional .45ACP and .40S&W.

MY POINT IS THAT THEY BOTH CAN KILL!! AS TO WHICH ONE IS THE MORE EFFECTIVE KILLER ON THE DAY, THE DETERMINING FACTORS ARE TOO NUMEROUS TO EVEN BEGIN TO LIST THEM!! NONE OF THE ROUNDS ARE ALWAYS BETTER .

The physics is simple: Force= mass x acceleration. Powder loadings and bullet mass can be altered to cause force ratings to approach each other for either caliber. The issue about pressure arises also as the smaller the diameter the smaller the surface area and so the larger the pressure exerted at the point of contact-hence the 9mm penetrates more and has a slower rate of deceleration than the .45. Hence the argument about mass (.45) vs. velocity (9mm) arises!! As stated previously, on the day any one can be better, it just depends!!!!!!

Be happy with what you shoot...

 

[DeltaElite]

bhp9 sounds like the Iraqi information ministry.
Lots of chatter, but none of it credible.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"Here again lets not forget we are speaking of the results of shooting to wound not kill."

Quite frankly, shooting to kill and what Thompson LaGarde did are IDENTICAL.

I'll say that again.

Shooting to kill and what Thompson LaGarde did are IDENTICAL.

Why?

Because when you shoot to kill you shoot for the center of mass.

What's in the center of mass?

Well, there's the heart, which is about the size of a human fist, and as I've noted, is an extremely difficult target at the BEST of times.

What else occupies the center of mass?

In fact, the MAJORITY of the center of mass? Where someone who is "shooting to kill" is MOST likely to hit the intended target?

The lungs.

The stomach.

The intestines.

So, when you're claiming that Thompson & LaGarde weren't "shooting" to kill because they were shooting at the center of mass, you're simply wrong AGAIN.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Cratz,

I agree with you that the Thompson LaGarde tests really have little bearing on what we're facing today.

But if you go back and read the quote that initially got me started on this, you'll see that TODAY wasn't being addressed.

What was being address -- incorrectly -- were the supposed findings from the Thompson LaGarde tests in 1904.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"He told me that you should believe or trust nothing no matter what higher authority it comes from or from how famous the individual or source may be. EXAMPLE: Chuck Taylor or the Tompson Tests. He said that they as engineers were taught to conduct their own testing before any other tests results by other engineers were even considered or looked at."


Just WHAT the hell are you talking about?

You're actually coming out with that kind of statement, and yet:

YOU'RE the one who started this by presenting, AS FACT, the second-hand story of a "police officer who was there."

Have YOU actually conducted a test that supports YOUR supposition that the .45 fails and 9mm saves the day as you tout in the header for this entire discussion?

No?

Even more...

YOU'RE the one who is claiming that the Thompson LaGarde tests showed something that they absolutely did NOT show, and then you switch the angle of attack so that it's now supposedly supported by the testing "gurus" of Pistolero Magazine?

How many steer have you shot while conducting your tests?

How many pigs have you tested these theories on?

None?

I'm sorry, this is really getting out of hand.

Simply put, and based on:

-- The quote that opens this message (copied and pasted from your message).

-- On the two points I've made that obvious belie your basis for making the referenced quote.

-- The continued misrepresentation of the findings of the Thompson LaGarde tests.

-- And your immediate changes in direction to avoid addressing point/statements on which you've been called,

I'm sorry, your credibility is about nil at this point.

 

[Mal H]

... and furthermore, that credibility is damaged even more when the sole [not "soul"] basis for the "facts" and reports given are from gun show conversations between you and unnamed persons whose credibility we have absolutely no way of knowing:

This came from a Massillon , Ohio Police officer. Since he is on the Massillon force and he himself was there I natuarally assume it took place in the Canton/ Massillon area. This was my understanding of the converstation that took place only a few days ago. He was on duty at a gun show that I was attending and I am relating to you the story that he told me.

At the recent gun show I attended I got a chance to talk to an engineer ...

 

[BHP9]

Despite his admirable enthusiasm, we must reject BHP9's hypothesis on the grounds that he has failed to cite any relevant, realistic, provable, documented, verified and quantifiable evidence in support of his thesis

I think that even if you discount the Policmans story (which I certainly do not) the results of the Pistolero test conducted in modern times with modern ammo complete with graphic pictures on animals (pigs) that were far closer to human anatomy as most doctors will attest proved beyond any doubt that the 9mm certainly is the equal of any .45 acp with modern ammo and I would like to add that it in my opinion has a lot of advantages of the .45 even with hard ball being able to far out penetrate the .45 harball round by a full 100 yards of range and penetrate at the closer level much better through such things as wood , car bodies, walls, heavy clothing etc. I think this is one reason why so many countries militaries and police stuck with the flatter shooting , deeper penetrating 9mm over the last 100 years rather than adopt the American .45. Very few of which did.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"conducted in modern times with modern ammo complete with graphic pictures on animals (pigs) that were far closer to human anatomy as most doctors will attest proved beyond any doubt that the 9mm certainly is the equal of any .45 acp with modern ammo..."

Once again, you fail to understand the Thompson LaGarde tests, which you brought up in the first place.

The Thompson LaGarde tests were conducted with ammo that would most likely be used by a military organization -- hardball and, for some of the revolver rounds, lead ball ammo.

Hollow points weren't available or generally known at the time.

The Thompson LaGarde tests contain not only PHOTOGRAPHS of various gunshow wounds in the steers, but also the gunshot wounds that resulted when fresh human corpses were shot.

Pistolero magazine didn't do this, did they?

The Thompson LaGarde book also included autopsy findings for the corpse tests.

Did Pistolero do that, or did they just BBQ the results?


"proved beyond any doubt that the 9mm certainly is the equal of any .45 acp with modern ammo..."

The Pistolero tests -- and I don't know why I haven't noted this before; IF they took place, and gave the results that you're claiming (given your previous assertions, that's open to serious debate) -- the ONLY thing that they truly proved is that pigs are susceptible to being wounded by bullets.

Until I can actually find a copy of Pistolero, and read this "test" for myself, that's the ONLY conclusion that I can logically drawn from this information, simply because it's apparent that you can't be trusted to correctly abstract information.

 

[Tamara]

Heck, I'm still trying to figure out how BHP9 found the .45 ACP results in the Thompson-LaGarde tests, seeing as how the cartridge hadn't even been invented yet, and all...

 

[Mike Irwin]

Oh, I know, Tams.

I'd also like to know how he figures that the later .45 ACP was in his own words:

"none of the .45 calibers were the later developed and much weaker and lighter .45acp."

Especially given that the .45 auto cartridge tested was MORE powerful that the .455 and .476 cartridges used by Britain, had the same energy, in foot pounds, as the .45 ACP round that was developed in 1905, and lagged behind the .45 Colt by not a whole lot of either bullet weight or energy.

I also love how he makes definitive comments on the Thompson LaGarde tests, then backtracks to say he was quoting a writer who examined the entire study, and ignores the fact that while I was quoting the article in Cartridges of the World, 4th Edition, I ALSO have examined the entire study, in depth, when I was....

My GOD! When I was writing firearms-related articles for American Rifleman magazine!

Never is the other gun writer's name mentioned, with the only reference given to a single article in a firearms magazine that apparently stayed around for about 3 quarterly issues.

If our erstwhile reporter is quoting this writer's findings accurately (which I tend to doubt), I can only say that he's the only person who has ever reached those conclusions based on an examination of the Thompson LaGarde tests.

I'll also note this, by Frank Barnes, whose firearms and scientific pedigree isn't in question, who writes this about the .30 Luger cartridge: "It is not noted for great stopping power because of the small diameter, lightweight, full jacket bullet. It is used occasionally for small game hunting and will do a fair job on rabbits and the like, provided that bullets are properly placed. For self-defense, it leaves much to be desired because a man can absorb quite a few poorly placed bullets without being put out of action.

While I don't know the basis for Barnes comments, it's very interesting to note that two other, MORE powerful rounds, the 7.62 Tokarev and the 7.63 Mauser, also had fairly poor reputations as man stoppers.

German experience in World War II, and even American experience in Korea, fighting North Korean and Chinese soldiers armed with handguns and submachine guns chambered for the 7.62 round, bore this out.

I'm really beginning to think that this individual lacks credibility not as a function of lack of comprehension or experience, but because the person has a specific desire to feign a lack of comprehension.

If true, this person is actually a troll instead of any of the alternatives.

 

[cratz2]

...Pistolero test conducted in modern times with modern ammo...

To further pick nits, Spring 1984 is not modern if the world of ammunition. To see how we've advanced, even with your beloved 9mm, compare the 147 Gr Ranger ammo of today to 147 Gr ammo that was available in 1984... no even close.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Damn, Cratz...

That's a very insightful point, one which I had not even considered.

Still doesn't change the situation, though.

There's a serious credibility gap, and it's not you, it's not me, and it's not Tamara....

 

[Al Thompson]

I remember both the magazine and article. Pistolero was (in) famous for calling a spade a spade. I think first gen silvertips, Fat Frank's BAT rounds and maybe some Super-Vels were tested. As Cratz2 aptly points out, none of the good stuff was even a dream then.

 

[BHP9]

QUOTE]While I don't know the basis for Barnes comments, it's very interesting to note that two other, MORE powerful rounds, the 7.62 Tokarev and the 7.63 Mauser, also had fairly poor reputations as man stoppers. [/QUOTE]

German experience in World War II, and even American experience in Korea, fighting North Korean and Chinese soldiers armed with handguns and submachine guns chambered for the 7.62 round, bore this out.

I disagree. The Russians used this cartridge in both their pistols and more importantly in their sub-guns. The Russians learned early in the war that the people who were issued the sub-guns actually fired their weapons in combat when they were in isolated positions out of sight of their comrades. As a consequence of this many more sub-guns were issued to front line troops than the bolt action Mosins.

If the cartridge was a dud (which it cerainly was not) the Russians would not have killed so many Germans with it and would have withdrawn it from service very quickly.

I think this proves that just as the .45 is steeped in Myth (such as knocking a man down or spinning him around if he is hit in the shoulder) so too was the perception that since the small diameter bullets like the 30 Mauser and 30 Tokerov were small therefore it follows they were ineffectual killers.

WWII on the Russian front proved otherwise when it was used there successfully by one of the largest armies in the world, the Russian Army. This cartridge would never have remained in service for the many decades that it did if it was as the "Myth claims" that it is an ineffectual and very aenimic non- lethal round. History has not bore this out.

AS a sidebar. I watched a special about the Russians fighting the Germans in WWII. A German solider was captured and interrogated and after they questioned him they told one of the interrogators that happened to be a woman to take him out and shoot him , which she did. She used her pistol and he dropped with one shot. I would not call this caliber a poor man killer.

 

[BHP9]

To further pick nits, Spring 1984 is not modern if the world of ammunition. To see how we've advanced, even with your beloved 9mm, compare the 147 Gr Ranger ammo of today to 147 Gr ammo that was available in 1984... no even close.

Your post is not even valid for a variety of reasons.

1. With the ammo tested the 9mm worked just as well as the .45 and Pistolero seemed to think it worked better than the .45acp.

2. Contrary to popular belief all the so called advances in ammo since 1900 has been more advertisement hoopla than any real improvement in performance. Bullets made today are largely the same in the expanding type as they were in the early part of the last century. The only difference sometimes being that they are now loaded up in some calibers way beyond what the weapons are capable of standing if fed a steady diet of such extremely hot loads which is not all to the worse if they are only used for self-defense and not for everyday practice which by the way soon destroys most pistols.

One exception to this is the bonded bullet that in most cases is actually less effective when shooting into soft tissue than the traditional come apart violently old fashion bullet that has been around for almost 100 years. AS a matter of fact the bonded bullet often acts more like a solid than an expanded bulllet and other bullets made of solid copper (barnes) or a combination of copper and bonded lead like Winchester fail safe, show beyond any dout they expand very little which is all too the good when deep penetration into large animals is required.

There have been exotic bullets like those that suspend shot pellets in liquid teflon but they seem to often give erratic performance such as either blowing up to fast or not blowing up at all.

There have been spectacular advertising campains like the infamous "Black Talon" that actually worked no better than many of its close competitors. I often wonder who got hoodwinked more, the anti-gun news media or gun owners that should have at least known better but didn't. They still pay big bucks for the few remaning rounds that turn up at gun shows because they all believe in the super bullet myth and few actually have tested them along side competitors bullets that are still for sale on todays market and work just as well.

Everyone seems to believe in some super bullet and its myth but even if you use these bullets that are being made today after of course going through the proper prayer, ritual and incantations by the light of the moon before using them, the fact remains that the bullets used in 1984 by Pistolero killed the pigs very dead and if the truth be known todays bullets are not much better if any over what was availble back then.

 

[BHP9]

There's a serious credibility gap, and it's not you, it's not me, and it's not Tamara....

Seriously no matter what evidence I would present there are those that would not even consider it if it does not fit in with their philosophy. I do not ask anyone to change his philosophy only to consider another point of view without resorting to classifying it as not credible simply because you do not agree with it.

1. I presented a police officers story who was actually at a shooting.

2. I presented actual tests conducted in Mexico complete with graphic pictures. Anyone who has a copy of this magazine or can get one will see the pictures of both the animals and ammo used. It even shows the animals at the moment of death which is very disturbing to say the least. Believe me it would have been tough to fake these pictures even with todays technology let alone what was availabel back in 1984.

Seriously I really believe that if I lived in a third world country and paraded a buch of prisoners out in full view of everyone and shot them with both the 9mm and .45 acp and they all fell down just as quickly with one caliber as with the other that everyone who prior to the event that believed the 9mm was not capable of this lethality would once again say it was all faked and was not credible.

 

[BevrFevr]

.45 fans really seem to be sensitive. You would almost think they were glock owners.

Most handgun calibers are versatile enough. If you are wanting the caliber to do all the work for you then get a shotgun.

Handguns are fun and all and part of the job if youre a cop or a rent a cop but if youre in fear of your life and your first instinct is to grab a handgun I guess you will be fodder for these forums.

You don't seem to hear stories like "he was shot twice with at 12 guage but he kept coming then we showed him a .45 and he collapsed and died" or "he was shot in the head 3 times with a .444Marlin but none of the bullets penetrated the skull."

You do seem to hear lots of stories like this about handguns. Especially about handguns weaker that .357mag. I get a kick out of these magic bullet debates.

-bevr