9th Circuit Overturned Again....9-0 Court Gives Police Victory in Waiting Time

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[rhetorical question mode]

Can somebody tell me why the alcohol industry experiences no streetturf battles, no dangerously unsafe brews, very few sales to minors by licensed vendors, few sales in schools, or murders over market share?

[/rhetorical question mode]

Anyone who sings the praises of the War on Drugs needs to go read a few history books on the Prohibition Era. The cure is worse than the disease.

And by the way, for anyone denying we might be moving to a police state, how about that recent Supreme Court case where the Supremes said it was OK to keep questioning an injured, bleeding, screaming suspect even after he says he doesn't want to talk, so long as you don't use his statement at trial?
 
No, Thumper, I didn't wash my hands. It was a SIMULATION! Besides, I was simulating a hurry, as if the person who'd knocked had actually yelled "POLICE!" instead of mumbling, very quietly, "police?". (As I hear they tend to do.)
 
It's not reasonable, even given the circumstances. Let 'em flush the drugs down the drain; Today's forensics can detect chemicals at the parts per billion level, flushing once or twice won't cut it, we're talking a couple of days, and a fair amount of drain cleaner to actually get rid of the evidence.
 
Brett,
The rules of evidence would never let you make a case on residue in drains. How would you prove the current occupants left it there? How could you prove how much they flushed? Are you ready for long prison terms for trace amounts?

Jeff
 
If you cannot get to the door in time to answer, and they are going to break down your door with guns drawn, you might as well get even. Reach down into the can, grab something warm and stinky, and start smearing yourself with it. It won't fix your broken front door, but it will at least give you some satisfaction when you have a boot pressing on the back of your neck after they cuff you.:D
 
Remember Messrs Scott and Carlson, out in Kali?

One was shot, almost, but not quite, to death, by drug pigs. The other was, as near as I can tell, deliberately and conspiratorilly murdered by drug pigs who wanted to steal his property.



Edit: After these things were investigated, by Govt. agencies, those agencies said that there never were any illegal drugs at either of these guys' places, and no reason even to suspect such.
 
Just don't THROW it at the officer, they might mistake it for a grenade (dare I say, a stink bomb?) or try to tack on additional charges for "assault with a deadly weapon."

This ruling is yet another example of how the War on Some Drugs has ravaged our civil rights.
 
Surely you've met some yourself?

Corrupt, thuggish, undercover narcotics detectives? Always well supplied with the best dope, because they get it free? People who just LOVE that there civil forfeiture, because it allows them to steal cash and nice cars with impunity?

C'mon, I'm quite sure you know EXACTLY what I mean.
 
"Are you ready for long prison terms for trace amounts?"

I'm not ready for long prison terms for boxcar loads of cocaine. If letting the people stupid enough to use that stuff kill themselves is the price of liberty, pile 'em in windrows. I personally do not care if they drill holes in the top of their heads and pour in battery acid. It's evolution in action.

IMO, the requirement for search warrents serves two, count 'em, TWO purposes, equally important. First, to make sure that the cops don't search my home without convincing a judge they've got reason to believe I've broken some law. And, second, to convince me that the guys in uniforms they might have obtained from a costume shop really ARE cops who have a legal right to make that search.

And it can't serve that second purpose if the cops don't give me a chance to look at the warrent. And ideally call my lawyer to have him confirm with the judge that it did get issued. Any yahoo can dress in ninja gear and yell "Open up, we've got a warrent!" And even wave a piece of paper around in the process. It's not an unknown form of home invasion.

And if that makes life tough for cops, so what? The Bill of Rights isn't there to make their lives easy. You know what they call a country arranged for the convenience of police? A "police state".

Thebadone, "drug pigs" are narcs. Obviously.
 
Just so everyone's clear, I don't think we'll be referring to the police as "pigs" in this forum. Spare me the angry PMs about how it only applies to the few cops who deserve it; I don't care. Let's be better than that. If you're not better than that, pretend. ;)

TheeBadOne, am I to presume that you agree with the rest of my post, since you only bothered to respond to one sentence?

I'm done debating. If you want to know my opinion, read Jeff's post. He said it better anyway.
 
Look at the Donald Scott case. In the time it took them to enter his house and kill him he apparently had enough time to dispose of the tons of marijuana he was supposed to be growing on his 200 acre ranch they so wanted to seize. They found nothing so that must be the reason. Time is of the essence after all.
 
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It's all about CONTROL. "We'll" tell you what to do, how much of it to do and when to do it. Prohibition lasted 13 years and look at all the trouble it caused. The WOD is into what, 70-80 years? The only people who come out on top is the drug dealers and various LEO agencies. Why the hell should the gov give a rat's butt what I do to myself in the privacy of my own home? My doc gave me some percocets for an injured knee. If I take some three months later and listen to some music I am "abusing" drugs. But three or four glasses of a good cab & a cigar are o.k. 'Cause 'THEY" said so. Pure, unmitigated BS. I have NEVER heard one argument for the "war" that made any sense. Not ONE. It creates crime and criminals. One CANNOT legislate morality no matter how many rights one tramples. Just can't do it. Too bad. We all continue to suffer because of it. B... S...
 
In that case... You're right, I was off by a few years. It has been going on longer than that.

"It was against this background that the Senate in 1914 considered the Harrison narcotic bill. The chief proponent of the measure was Secretary of State William Jennings Bryan, a man of deep prohibitionist and missionary convictions and sympathies. He urged that the law be promptly passed to fulfill United States obligations under the new international treaty.

The supporters of the Harrison bill said little in the Congressional debates (which lasted several days) about the evils of narcotics addiction in the United States. They talked more about the need to implement The Hague Convention of 1912. Even Senator Mann of Mann Act fame, spokesman for the bill in the Senate, talked about international obligations rather than domestic morality."

Let me guess... "But we're winning now! A few more cars, houses & cash and we'll have this problem licked! Gotta break a few eggs to make omelets, eh? Wink, wink, nudge, nudge." Bah!

:rolleyes: :barf:
 
TBO and Intune

Intune, TBO is correct. You are wrong. The war on drugs has been going on for 89 years. :D

It started with the Harrison act in 1914. Fiorelo LaGuardia commissioned the first study on Marijuana in 1937. The interesting thing is that the results of the LaGuardia commission were exactly the same as the 1972 President's Commission on Marijuana and Drug Abuse commissioned by Richard Nixon. Both studies stated that Marijuana was an innocuous mildly narcotic substance which should be legalized.

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/History/whiteb1.htm

The Harrison Act

The very first criminal law at the Federal level in this country to criminalize the non-medical use of drugs came in 1914. It was called the Harrison Act and there are only three things about the Harrison Act that we need to focus on today.

Number one is the date. Did you hear the date, 1914? Some of you may have come this morning thinking that we have used the criminal law to deal with the non-medical use of drugs since the beginning of the Republic or something. That is not true. The entire experiment of using the criminal sanction to deal with the non-medical use of drugs really began in this country in 1914 with the Harrison Act.

The second interesting thing about the Harrison Act was the drugs to which it applied, because it applied to almost none of the drugs we would be concerned about today. The Harrison Act applied to opium, morphine and its various derivatives, and the derivatives of the coca leaf like cocaine. No mention anywhere there of amphetamines, barbiturates, marijuana, hashish, hallucinogenic drugs of any kind. The Harrison Act applied only to opium, morphine and its various derivatives and derivatives of the coca leaf like cocaine.

The third and most interesting thing for you all as judges about the Harrison Act was its structure, because the structure of this law was very peculiar and became the model for every single piece of Federal legislation from 1914 right straight through 1969. And what was that model?

It was called the Harrison Tax Act. You know, the drafters of the Harrison Act said very clearly on the floor of Congress what it was they wanted to achieve. They had two goals. They wanted to regulate the medical use of these drugs and they wanted to criminalize the non-medical use of these drugs. They had one problem. Look at the date -- 1914. 1914 was probably the high water mark of the constitutional doctrine we today call "states' rights" and, therefore, it was widely thought Congress did not have the power, number one, to regulate a particular profession, and number two, that Congress did not have the power to pass what was, and is still known, as a general criminal law. That's why there were so few Federal Crimes until very recently.

In the face of possible Constitutional opposition to what they wanted to do, the people in Congress who supported the Harrison Act came up with a novel idea. That is, they would masquerade this whole thing as though it were a tax. To show you how it worked, can I use some hypothetical figures to show you how this alleged tax worked?

There were two taxes. The first (and again, these figures aren't accurate but they will do to show the idea) tax was paid by doctors. It was a dollar a year and the doctors, in exchange for paying that one dollar tax, got a stamp from the Government that allowed them to prescribe these drugs for their patients so long as they followed the regulations in the statute. Do you see that by the payment of that one dollar tax, we have the doctors regulated? The doctors have to follow the regulations in the statute.

And there was a second tax. (and again, these are hypothetical figures but they will show you how it worked.) was a tax of a thousand dollars of every single non-medical exchange of every one of these drugs. Well, since nobody was going to pay a thousand dollars in tax to exchange something which, in 1914, even in large quantities was worth about five dollars, the second tax wasn't a tax either, it was a criminal prohibition. Now just to be sure you guys understand this, and I am sure you do, but just to make sure, let's say that in 1915 somebody was found, let's say, in possession of an ounce of cocaine out here on the street. What would be the Federal crime? Not possession of cocaine, or possession of a controlled substance. What was the crime? Tax evasion.

And do you see what a wicked web that is going to be? As a quick preview, where then are we going to put the law enforcement arm for the criminalization of drugs for over forty years -- in what department? The Treasury Department. Why, we are just out there collecting taxes and I will show you how that works in a minute.

If you understand that taxing scheme then you understand why the national marijuana prohibition of 1937 was called the Marihuana Tax Act.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Early State Marijuana Laws

But before we get to that next big piece of Federal legislation, the marihuana prohibition of 1937, I would like to take a little detour, if I may, into an analysis of the early state marijuana laws passed in this country from 1915 to 1937.

Let me pause to tell you this. When Professor Bonnie and I set out to try to track the legal history of marijuana in this country, we were shocked that nobody had ever done that work before. And, secondly, the few people who had even conjectured about it went back to the 1937 Federal Act and said "Well, there's the beginning of it." No. If you go back to 1937, that fails to take account of the fact that, in the period from 1915 to 1937, some 27 states passed criminal laws against the use of marijuana. What Professor Bonnie and I did was, unique to our work, to go back to the legislative records in those states and back to the newspapers in the state capitols at the time these laws were passed to try to find out what motivated these 27 states to enact criminal laws against the use of marijuana. What we found was that the 27 states divided into three groups by explanation.

The first group of states to have marijuana laws in that part of the century were Rocky Mountain and southwestern states. By that, I mean Texas, New Mexico, Colorado, Montana. You didn't have to go anywhere but to the legislative records to find out what had motivated those marijuana laws. The only thing you need to know to understand the early marijuana laws in the southwest and Rocky Mountain areas of this country is to know, that in the period just after 1914, into all of those areas was a substantial migration of Mexicans. They had come across the border in search of better economic conditions, they worked heavily as rural laborers, beet field workers, cotton pickers, things of that sort. And with them, they had brought marijuana.

Basically, none of the white people in these states knew anything about marijuana, and I make a distinction between white people and Mexicans to reflect a distinction that any legislator in one of these states at the time would have made. And all you had to do to find out what motivated the marijuana laws in the Rocky mountain and southwestern states was to go to the legislative records themselves. Probably the best single statement was the statement of a proponent of Texas first marijuana law. He said on the floor of the Texas Senate, and I quote, "All Mexicans are crazy, and this stuff (referring to marijuana) is what makes them crazy." Or, as the proponent of Montana's first marijuana law said, (and imagine this on the floor of the state legislature) and I quote, "Give one of these Mexican beet field workers a couple of puffs on a marijuana cigarette and he thinks he is in the bullring at Barcelona."

Well, there it was, you didn't have to look another foot as you went from state to state right on the floor of the state legislature. And so what was the genesis for the early state marijuana laws in the Rocky Mountain and southwestern areas of this country? It wasn't hostility to the drug, it was hostility to the newly arrived Mexican community that used it.

A second group of states that had criminal laws against the use of marijuana were in the Northeast, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York -- had one and then repealed it and then had one again -- New Jersey. Well, clearly no hypothesis about Mexican immigration will explain the genesis of those laws because, as you know, the Northeast has never had, still doesn't really, any substantial Mexican-American population. So we had to dig a little deeper to find the genesis of those laws. We had to go not only to the legislative records but to the newspapers in the state capitols at the time these laws were passed and what we found, in the early marijuana laws in the Northeast, we labeled the "fear of substitution." If I may, let me paraphrase an editorial from the New York Times in 1919 so we will get exactly the flavor of this fear of substitution.

The New York Times in an editorial in 1919 said, "No one here in New York uses this drug marijuana. We have only just heard about it from down in the Southwest," and here comes the substitution. "But," said the New York Times, "we had better prohibit its use before it gets here. Otherwise" -- here's the substitution concept -- "all the heroin and hard narcotics addicts cut off from their drug by the Harrison Act and all the alcohol drinkers cut off from their drug by 1919 alcohol Prohibition will substitute this new and unknown drug marijuana for the drugs they used to use."

Well, from state to state, on the theory that this newly encountered drug marijuana would be substituted by the hard narcotics addicts or by the alcohol drinkers for their previous drug that had been prohibited, state to state this fear of substitution carried, and that accounted for 26 of the 27 states -- that is, either the anti-Mexican sentiment in the Southwest and Rocky Mountain areas or fear of substitution in the Northeast. That accounted for 26 of the 27 states, and there was only one state left over. It was the most important state for us because it was the first state ever to enact a criminal law against the use of marijuana and it was the state of Utah.

Now, if you have been hearing this story and you have been playing along with me, you think "Oh, wait a minute, Whitebread, Utah fits exactly with Colorado, Montana, -- it must have been the Mexicans."

Well, that's what I thought at first. But we went and did a careful study of the actual immigration pattern and found, to our surprise, that Utah didn't have then, and doesn't have now, a really substantial Mexican-American population. So it had to be something else.

Come on folks, if it had to be something else, what do you think it might have been? Are you thinking what I was thinking -- that it must have had something to do with the single thing which makes Utah unique in American history -- its association with the Mormon church.


With help from some people in Salt Lake City, associated with the Mormon Church and the Mormon National Tabernacle in Washington -- with their help and a lot of work we found out what the genesis was of the first marihuana law in this country. Yes, it was directly connected to the history of Utah and Mormonism and it went like this.


I think that a lot of you know that, in its earliest days, the Mormon church permitted its male members to have more than one wife -- polygamy. Do you all know that in 1876, in a case called Reynolds against the United States, the United States Supreme Court said that Mormons were free to believe what they wanted, but they were not free to practice polygamy in this country. Well, who do you think enforced that ruling of the Supreme Court in 1876? At the end of the line, who enforces all rulings of the Supreme Court? Answer: the state and local police. And who were they in Utah then? All Mormons, and so nothing happened for many years. Those who wanted to live polygamously continued to do so.

In 1910, the Mormon Church in synod in Salt Lake City decreed polygamy to be a religious mistake and it was banned as a matter of the Mormon religion. Once that happened, there was a crackdown on people who wanted to live in what they called "the traditional way". So, just after 1910, a fairly large number of Mormons left the state of Utah, and indeed left the United States altogether and moved into northwest Mexico. They wrote a lot about what they wanted to accomplish in Mexico. They wanted to set up communities where they were basically going to convert the Indians, the Mexicans, and what they referred to as "the heathen" in the neighborhood to Mormonism.

By 1914, they had had very little luck with the heathen, but our research shows now beyond question that the heathen had a little luck with them. What happened apparently -- now some of you who may be members of the church, you know that there are still substantial Mormon communities in northwest Mexico -- was that, by and large most of the Mormons were not happy there, the religion had not done well there, they didn't feel comfortable there, they wanted to go back to Utah where there friends were and after 1914 did.

And with them, the Indians had given them marijuana. Now once you get somebody back in Utah with the marijuana it all becomes very easy, doesn't it? You know that the Mormon Church has always been opposed to the use of euphoriants of any kind. So, somebody saw them with the marijuana, and in August of 1915 the Church, meeting again in synod in Salt Lake City decreed the use of marijuana contrary to the Mormon religion and then -- and this is how things were in Utah in those days -- in October of 1915, the state legislature met and enacted every religious prohibition as a criminal law and we had the first criminal law in this country's history against the use of marijuana.

That digression into the early state marijuana laws aside, we will now get back on the Federal track, the year is 1937 and we get the national marijuana prohibition -- the Marihuana Tax Act
Article goes on with more ... MUCH more. Too much to post here.
 
The effects of this policy were almost immediately visible. On May 15, 1915, just six weeks after the effective date of the Harrison Act, an editorial in the New York Medical Journal declared:

As was expected ... the immediate effects of the Harrison antinarcotic law were seen in the flocking of drug habitues to hospitals and sanatoriums. Sporadic crimes of violence were reported too, due usually to desperate efforts by addicts to obtain drugs, but occasionally to a delirious state induced by sudden withdrawal....

The really serious results of this legislation, however, will only appear gradually and will not always be recognized as such. These will be the failures of promising careers, the disrupting of happy families, the commission of crimes which will never be traced to their real cause, and the influx into hospitals to the mentally disordered of many who would otherwise live socially competent lives.

Six months later an editorial in American Medicine reported:

Narcotic drug addiction is one of the gravest and most important questions confronting the medical profession today. Instead of improving conditions the laws recently passed have made the problem more complex. Honest medical men have found such handicaps and dangers to themselves and their reputations in these laws . . . that they have simply decided to have as little to do as possible with drug addicts or their needs. . . . The druggists are in the same position and for similar reasons many of them have discontinued entirely the sale of narcotic drugs. [The addict] is denied the medical care he urgently needs, open, above-board sources from which he formerly obtained his drug supply are closed to him, and he is driven to the underworld where lie can get his drug, but of course, surreptitiously and in violation of the law....

Abuses in the sale of narcotic drugs are increasing. . . . A particular sinister sequence . . . is the character of the places to which [addicts] are forced to go to get their drugs and the type of people with whom they are obliged to mix. The most depraved criminals are often the dispensers of these habit-forming drugs. The moral dangers, as well as the effect on the self-respect of the addict, call for no comment. One has only to think of the stress under which the addict lives, and to recall his lack of funds, to realize the extent to which these . . . afflicted individuals are under the control of the worst elements of society. In respect to female habitues the conditions are worse, if possible. Houses of ill fame are usually their sources of supply, and one has only to think of what repeated visitations to such places mean to countless good women and girls unblemished in most instances except for an unfortunate addiction to some narcotic drug-to appreciate the terrible menace.

In 1918, after three years of the Harrison Act and its devastating effects, the secretary of the treasury appointed a committee to look into the problem. The chairman of the committee was Congressman Homer T. Rainey; members included a professor of pharmacology from Harvard, a former deputy commissioner of internal revenue responsible for law enforcement, and Dr. A. G. Du Mez, Secretary of the United States Public Health Service. This was the first of a long line of such committees appointed through the years. Among its findings 10 were the following:

Opium and other narcotic drugs (including cocaine, which Congress had erroneously labeled as a narcotic in 1914) were being used by about a million people. (This was almost certainly an overestimate; see Chapter 9.)


The "underground" traffic in narcotic drugs was about equal to the legitimate medical traffic.


The "dope peddlers" appeared to have established a national organization, smuggling the drugs in through seaports or across the Canadian or Mexican borders-especially the Canadian border.


The wrongful use of narcotic drugs had increased since passage of the Harrison Act. Twenty cities, including New York and San Francisco, had reported such increases. (The increase no doubt resulted from the migration of addicts into cities where black markets flourished.)


To stem this apparently rising tide, the 1918 committee, like countless committees since, called for sterner law enforcement. it also recommended more state laws patterned after the Harrison Act.

Oh the joy. More, tougher laws. And more. And even more... YOU MUST STOP THIS BEHAVIOR! WE DO NOT APPROVE! Next thing ya know doors will start kickin' in and Rights which have been ours for hundreds of years as citizens of this great republic will fall by the wayside. MORE EGGS, WE NEED MORE EGGS! Do another door. Do it for the children. Notice how it is not about laws or policies which involve one's interactment with the public, DUI, drunk in public? These make too much sense Noooo, total control. "We know what is best for you." Again, I say :barf:
 
I got the distinct impression that he thought I was exaggerating. Like he thought it began in the '60's or '70's, hence the sarcastic smiley. Which is it TBO? Did you think I was off by 9 or so years or were you thinking more like off by fifty?

I love honor, makes folks do the strangest things...
 
My opinion . . .

LEOs have superior personnel, training, communications, equipment, etc., etc.

They should have inferior weaponry in general. Why? To keep them humble, to ensure they act with their brains and their training rather than with their bullets and adrenaline.

Carpenters "measure twice, cut once." LEOs should act in the same manner -- think, think, think, then act.

20 seconds is OK, I suppose, but only if second 21 involves thinking and acting carefully and responsibly rather than banging and shooting. Ordinary people can't react in 20 seconds, so any mistake is likely to be fatal.
 
Does anyone have any evidence that we are winning? I thought drugs continue to get cheaper thus indicating the supply is rising vs demand compared to years past. That would show we are loosing despite all the freedom we lost and money spent on this thing.

I still can not get over how much freedom we have lost directly related to the war on drugs.

EDIT: reading a few posts above that just popped up: If someone would have asked me yesterday on the street "when did the drug war start?" I would have guessed the 1930's when alcohol was banned (or was it earlier? who cares), I know drugs went at about the same time, that or I would look at the amendment to the BOR to find when it started at the federal level.

89 years sounds right to me.
 
gtd, first of all let me give you my welcome to THR! I understand what you are saying but must respectfully disagree. I want them to go in with superior force and numbers and come out alive and uninjured. Same with the homeowner. They are professionals and most have a professional attitude.

However, I want to make their jobs MUCH easier and have them going after murderers, rapists and serious warrant violators. If you took the drug trade and its ancillary criminal conduct out of the equation I believe law enforcement would come out smelling like a rose. We have given them an impossible task. Impossible. "We" ask it of them yet they bear the brunt of the blame when things go awry.
 
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