9th Circuit Overturned Again....9-0 Court Gives Police Victory in Waiting Time

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El Rojo -
The only problem with your argument is that it cannot possibly become any easier to obtain drugs. Heroin/cocaine/marijuana are freely available for anyone -- without any regulation whatsoever. Prohibition does not work. Did not work with alcohol in the 20's, and it is not working with drugs now. We may have to pay for those who are sinking, but there won't be any more people on assistance if drugs are legalized.
 
I don't agree Carpetbagger. Making something illegal goes a long ways towards restricting its use. For instance, I wouldn't want to try drugs for a couple of reasons, one of which is because they are illegal and I don't want to go to jail for it. How many machine guns do we all own? Yeah maybe one or two spread out amongst all of our members. Would I buy a machine gun if I could? Yeah, why not. Why don't I buy one anyway? It is illegal and not worth me going to prison for. The same reason more people don't use drugs now? Are you telling me if they are legalized you think more people won't use them? No more drug tests at work are going to reduce the number of people using? For some reason I don't think so.

Someone else in an early post made a good point. We outlaw murder, rape, robbery, and all sorts of other crimes, but do those things continue to happen? Yes they do. By some of the logic used here, since people are still murdering and raping, why fight it? People will always do it, so why not make it legal right?

I don't really have time right now, but this is most certainly not a war on drugs. If it were, we would be killing people over it more than what we already are. We would be going to Columbia and hitting the enemy strategically. No, this "war on drugs" is like Vietnam, just plugging holes where we can with no real means of really making a strategic difference by fighting a limited war.

I agree Art, maybe this isn't working exactly as efficiently as it could. However, I think saying some drugs are illegal is a good thing as I have already pointed out. And it isn't about control for me. I want bad drugs to be illegal because they don't have a positive contribution to the citizens of my country. They bring ruin and destruction. It has nothing to do with my controling other people as some others try to point out. If it didn't effect me financially, I guess I could say I could care less if my neighbors wanted to get wasted and ruin their lives. Then that wouldn't make me a very good neighbor though would it? If you know it is bad and you know it is wrong, why not stand up against it?

Ok, I gotta go decorate the Christmas Tree/fire hazard device. The wife beckons! :rolleyes:
 
I understand Cordex's libertarian view and respect it, but darn it, why should we keep paying for this crap? If drugs are going to screw you up so bad you end up in jail, who has to pay for that cushy existence? We do!
I feel very similarly on the WosD. Why should we keep paying for this crap?
If drugs are illegal, and you throw people in jail for possessing an infinitesimal quantity of a chemical who has to pay for that cushy existence? We do!
And have you looked at the price tag for our fearless drug warriors recently? Good night!

You don't throw people who sell and drink alcohol in jail because they might drink and drive, do you? Why then, should you throw druggies in jail because they might get so messed up that they'd rob someone?

Prior restraint isn't cool, pal.
The bad thing is now that the federal government is so big and we have created this welfare state
Agreed. That is the bad thing.
People keep trading liberty for security and there is no turning back. Yes, in some aspects, I am doing the same thing by saying we shouldn't encourage drug abuse and should make it illegal. Part of my reasoning is because of the societal cost of having to treat and support these addicts that become a strain on society.
Okay, so why stop at a few drugs?
Again, why not ban unhealthy foods, professions or sex? Your arguments apply just as well to those areas as to drugs. Do you pay any less to support a grossly obese man who cannot walk much less work, and suffers from a host of medical conditions than you pay to support the cracked out junkie on welfare?

As with Art, the legality and availablity of drugs does not affect my behavior. They could pass them out willy-nilly and I'd still avoid 'em. Interestingly enough, the laws don't seem to affect the behavior of those who choose to poison themselves either, except to .
Someone else in an early post made a good point. We outlaw murder, rape, robbery, and all sorts of other crimes, but do those things continue to happen? Yes they do. By some of the logic used here, since people are still murdering and raping, why fight it? People will always do it, so why not make it legal right?
And someone else made a good point that murder, rape and robbery are things that directly harm someone else. Drug use is not inherently harmful to anyone but the user, something that is not your business.
And it isn't about control for me. I want bad drugs to be illegal because they don't have a positive contribution to the citizens of my country. They bring ruin and destruction. It has nothing to do with my controling other people as some others try to point out.
Should anything which does not contribute something positive to your society be outlawed? I can think of an awful lot of things that I don't think are particularly positive. I mean, seriously - what positive is added by professional basketball? It often results in rioting and violence, doesn't it?
*runs from the Hoosier lynch mob*
Or is recreation positive, even if it can harm you? *thinks about a buddy who used to box, and another who does full-contact karate*
If it didn't effect me financially, I guess I could say I could care less if my neighbors wanted to get wasted and ruin their lives. Then that wouldn't make me a very good neighbor though would it? If you know it is bad and you know it is wrong, why not stand up against it?
They can get wasted and ruin their lives! They just go buy a few liters of hard alcohol and plaster away. They can down sleeping pills until they pass out.
 
Should anything which does not contribute something positive to your society be outlawed? I can think of an awful lot of things that I don't think are particularly positive. I mean, seriously - what positive is added by professional basketball? It often results in rioting and violence, doesn't it?
And here lies the problem. I make a statement and it is changed to an all or nothing stance. Professional basketball? You hardly could have picked a worse example. Professional basketball, even though not either of our favorites I would assume, is a positive activity. Professional basketball generates jobs and revenue. Basketball provides the players with a good dose of physical exercise that provides healthier bodies. Professional basketball provides millions of fans a means of entertainment that has no inherent negative effects. Then just like many of the arguments made here, rather than relying on some solid theories, you make an outlandish statement, "It often results in rioting and violence". It does? Care to back that up with a ratio of rioting and violence to total number of professional basketball games? I think we would find that number extremely small, just like the number of 20 second knock warrants that result in a shooting. Be sure that your evidence takes into account the possible causes of such incidents. Might these rioters possibly be under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol when they engage in this unruly behavior? No, I doubt it. :rolleyes: Again, arguments are made on assumptions and generalizations, not substancial evidence.

You know what? What it really comes down to is this. I think it is wrong. I am not going to support drug abuse. Sorry. I think it effects more than just the person using it. I think drug abuse effects the family and friends of an abuser as well as innocent people. I would hate to see my neighbor get hooked on crack and watch his whole life go to crap because of it. I will not support his right to do so and I will not support the industry that would do it by legitimizing it by making drugs legal. I will not just turn my head the other way.

Further, it is a moral issue. Sure some might say you can't legislate morality. So should we allow people to have sex with their kids? Afterall, it is possible for a man to procreate with his daughter or a woman to bear the children of her son. No, we say that is wrong for some reason. Why on earth would we claim such a thing is wrong, after all it is physically possible for it to happen? Why? Because we have a moral code and this country was founded on it. Some things are right and some things are wrong. You bring up examples of over eating. Eating in itself supports life. Its abuse is wrong. Tell me how crack and heroin support life? Firearms can kill, but they can also save lives. Tell me how PCP can save a life?

If you would not touch drugs, if you would not get involved with them if they were legal, why not? What makes you afraid of drugs? What makes you want to avoid them? Think of those reasons and tell me how you plan on supporting your children's drug habbit. Afterall, if it is good for my kids, it should be good for your kids right? You do want my kids to do drugs don't you? Why else would you want to make it legal?

Sure I don't like golf. Sometimes people get struck by lightning playing golf. They assume that risk and I will accept their playing golf and I am willing to pay for it if they get zapped playing golf. People like boxing or karate. Let em box or play karate. It often builds the body and mind and it provides a source of income. When was the last time you saw a rich crack addict in excellent physical condition? No drug abusers are not like any of your examples.

What is the purpose of drug use? Why would you want to smoke some crack? Why shoot some heroin? To preserve liberty? To get in better shape? To nurish your body? The only reason is to escape reality. To obtain an artificial high that doesn't last a real long time. And what is the side effect of this? Negative health results, addiction, poor judgement and motor skills. Is this something you plan on showing your children? Do you plan on showing them the benfits of getting high? Why not? If you wouldn't expose your kids to these substances, why do you advocate exposing my children to it? Why do you advocate exposing my parents? My siblings? By making these substances legal you might as well say, "It is ok. Go ahead and do it. It only effects the individual right?"

And that will be my checker from now on. If I could physically or morally do something or have my children do it without reservation, then it should be ok. I don't like ice skating too much, but I could do it, I wouldn't mind my kids doing it. I don't want to get an ear ring, but I guess it wouldn't kill me or negatively effect my health as long as I maintain it. I guess it is ok. I don't want to get addicted to heroin, but I guess I could do it and I wouldn't mind my children doing it. No, that one doesn't pass the test.
 
I make a statement and it is changed to an all or nothing stance.
You stated that was the reason you wanted drugs to be illegal was because they didn't make a postive contribution to your country. It was the defining factor, so I figured it could be applied elsewhere. I'm a fan of consistant principles.
I think drug abuse effects the family and friends of an abuser as well as innocent people.
Okay, fine. Let's stick with drugs. Why do you think that alcohol abuse is so much better than drug abuse? Or do you support the illegalization of alcohol too?
I would hate to see my neighbor get hooked on crack and watch his whole life go to crap because of it. I will not support his right to do so and I will not support the industry that would do it by legitimizing it by making drugs legal. I will not just turn my head the other way.
Two things.
1. Do you think so little of your neighbor that he will do anything bad for him if it is legal, but not do it if it is illegal?
2. Is your only contact with your neighbor with the arm of the law? Can you help your neighbor keep from being an alcoholic by any means other than banning alcohol?
If you would not touch drugs, if you would not get involved with them if they were legal, why not? What makes you want to avoid them?
Because I have no interest in damaging myself through their use.
I'm willing to accept the risks of lead poisoning that accompanies my shooting habit, however.
Think of those reasons and tell me how you plan on supporting your children's drug habbit. Afterall, if it is good for my kids, it should be good for your kids right? You do want my kids to do drugs don't you? Why else would you want to make it legal?
Ahh ... I see. You think that because I oppose the government's meddling in a private citizen's affairs, I must support the abuse of drugs.
You're wrong.
I don't want my kids to do drugs. I will teach them about how drugs can harm their bodies and I will enforce my own prohibition on them until they have left my home, and if after that they decide to do drugs anyway, I will do my best to get them to stop, but I will not go running to Mommie.gov and ask her to ban drugs to keep them out of the hands of my kids. My failure as a parent isn't a valid reason to enact a law.
And that will be my checker from now on. If I could physically or morally do something or have my children do it without reservation, then it should be ok. I don't like ice skating too much, but I could do it, I wouldn't mind my kids doing it. I don't want to get an ear ring, but I guess it wouldn't kill me or negatively effect my health as long as I maintain it. I guess it is ok. I don't want to get addicted to heroin, but I guess I could do it and I wouldn't mind my children doing it. No, that one doesn't pass the test./quote]
No offense, but that is a silly test.
"Sex. Could I do it? Sure. Would I mind my eight year old doing it?"
"Alcohol. Could I do it? Sure. Would I mind my twelve year old drinking?"
"Driving. Could I do it? Sure. Would I mind my six year old doing it?"

Gotta go. Got me an appointment with Bambi and a smokepole. Have a great day.
 
No offense, but that is a silly test.
"Sex. Could I do it? Sure. Would I mind my eight year old doing it?"
"Alcohol. Could I do it? Sure. Would I mind my twelve year old drinking?"
"Driving. Could I do it? Sure. Would I mind my six year old doing it?"
I knew that was going to come up. Use your best judgement as a parent.
 
Originally posted by cordex:
No offense, but that is a silly test.
"Sex. Could I do it? Sure. Would I mind my eight year old doing it?"
"Alcohol. Could I do it? Sure. Would I mind my twelve year old drinking?"
"Driving. Could I do it? Sure. Would I mind my six year old doing it?"

All of these questions you pose regarding minors ARE prohibited by law, precisely because they are deemed to be harmful to the participants and possibly to others.

To be consistant, would you support legalizing these activities?
 
All of these questions you pose regarding minors ARE prohibited by law, precisely because they are deemed to be harmful to the participants and possibly to others.
El Rojo didn't suggest that drugs be illegal for children. He said that his test for whether something should be legal or not is whether he would do it himself and if he would let his kids do it.
In other words, if he wouldn't let his kids poison themselves with tobacco, smoking should be banned outright.
To be consistant, would you support legalizing these activities?
To be consistant: For consenting adults, yes.

El Rojo said:
Use your best judgement as a parent.
I agree.
I don't agree that the rules I set for my kids should be applied to the country as a whole.

"Sorry, Senator. Staying out past 10:00 on a school night is grounds for arrest."
 
Actually I said "or" not and. Here is my exact quote.
"If I could physically or morally do something or have my children do it without reservation".

I never took an issue against tobacco. I have not taken an issue against alcohol. Those two items can be used responsibly with minimal effects against others. I don't agree with them, but hey I don't see people killing over tobacco or stealing a whole lot to go buy cigarrettes. Sure your life might be shortened by them and it could effect your health, but not nearly to the level of illicet drugs. As you perfectly pointed out, I don't think kids are ready to make the decision to have sex, smoke, or drive at an early age. Therefor I would suggest it be illegal. It seems America agrees with me. You are getting the hang of the model.

"I don't agree that the rules I set for my kids should be applied to the country as a whole." We aren't talking about curfews and dating rules. We are talking about a very addictive substance that retards your physical growth, kills brain cells, and limits your potential. Drug abuse is serious business. That is why in good conscious I can't take such a cavalier attitude toward it like it is a curfew. Your kid might be able to handle the responsibility of hanging out until 11:00 PM vs. my child's 9:00 PM. Which one do you think can handle their heroin addiction more repsonsibly?

This issue is much too complicated to have an all or nothing attitude. You can't just use a blanket to say that all things are wrong or all things are right. You keep trying to force that. I don't think drugs serve a legitimate or positive purpose in society. I think they are highly addictive and their effects are overwhelmingly negative for the users and the people around them. I do not want to see people I care about go down the sinking hole of drug abuse. I believe that making these substances legal gives their use legitimacy and that the good that might come from it would outweigh the bad. There is no right to do drugs guarenteed by the Constitution. Sorry. The government can limit it based upon the will of the people. There is a 2nd Amendment that says you can't limit the minority's right to keep and bear arms.
 
Those two items can be used responsibly with minimal effects against others. I don't agree with them, but hey I don't see people killing over tobacco or stealing a whole lot to go buy cigarrettes.

So no problem with people growing their own marijuana? No killing or stealing involved there. Although you haven't been looking very hard if you don't know organized crime is involved in running cigarettes.

There is no right to do drugs guarenteed by the Constitution. Sorry. The government can limit it based upon the will of the people. There is a 2nd Amendment that says you can't limit the minority's right to keep and bear arms.

No right to TV or movies in the Constitution. No right to books either. Do you think that means they can be banned by the will of the people? What about fatty foods? Shall we ban all-you-can-eat buffets? Require helmets to walk on the street? After all if you fall and hit your head we'll have to pay for you to be hospitalized.
 
you know, until this comment, I thought your comments were thoughtful. This comment here betrays a significant amount of ignorance

There is no right to do drugs guarenteed by the Constitution. Sorry. The government can limit it based upon the will of the people.

The Constitution does not GRANT or GUARANTEE rights. The Bill of Rights guarantees several rights (free speech, RKBA, freedom from unreasonable search/seizure, right to counsel), but in the context of guarantee of restrictions upon the govt -- and the 9th guarantees the rest of the unenumerated rights.

The Constitution is not the fount of the people's rights. The Constitution spells out the framework and function, and delegated duties, of the Federal government. Our system of law is based on our common-law heritage that predated the Constitution.
 
The Constitution does not GRANT or GUARANTEE rights. The Bill of Rights guarantees several rights (free speech, RKBA, freedom from unreasonable search/seizure, right to counsel), but in the context of guarantee of restrictions upon the govt -- and the 9th guarantees the rest of the unenumerated rights.
Spartacus I believe we are getting into semantics here. If I stated the Constitution does not address the right to abuse drugs, I would also include the Bill of Rights. I sort of link them both together.

Yes the people are given the rights not listed in the Constitution by the 9th Amendment, unless the state legislature or the Congress decide otherwise. If the people want to ban drugs, they can go to Congress and do so. True, it might not be the way the Founding Fathers and libertarians don't want things to run, but it is possible and it is set practice. They could even repeal the 2nd Amendment with another Amendment. Nothing is absolute.

True we can make the argument that we have God given rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Those three things were important and thus the Bill of Rights came about. Restrictions on the government to respect its people. However, if people do not exercise their opinions and take action, those things are not guaranteed. Sure we have a 2nd Amendment, but if we let them take away our guns, we let them take away our guns. That is it, it is over.

I think I see that mainly you were getting onto me for lumping the Constitution and Bill of Rights together. That has been noted and I will try not to make that mistake again.

The "war on drugs" is a hard subject. Do I want to support the expanded instrusive powers of the federal and state governments? Do I want to regulate other people's activities. Do I want to spend money on something that could be legalized, regulated, and generate money?

Do I want to legitimize a group of substances that have such negative effects on others they often enslave their victims. Do I want to become an apathetic individual that says if someone wants to completely throw their life and their family's life down the drain at the expense of these drugs that is their right?

And this is not a simple issue, but people try to make it a simple issue. Carpettbaggerr brings up food and walking down the street. Eating food is a very necessary and legitimate means of sustaining life. Everyone eats food, it is pretty much required. Some people abuse food and we sometimes have to pay for the costs of that abuse. The same for the 2nd Amendment. There are millions of positive experiences with firearms. From recreation, hunting, self-defense, and deterance. Just about every counter issue people bring up with me, there is a legitimate use of that substance or object that in my mind makes the sometimes negative effects unfortunate, but necessary.

Can someone make that case for cocaine, heroin, PCP, and all of the other abusive drugs (include marijuana if you want just because I am on the border with that one). Please someone tell me what positive benefits people will get from using these drugs. And please be sure that these positives outweight the negatives. It would also persuade me if you could reason out that the highly addictive nature of these types of drugs can enable a user to keep a good job, be a good father or mother, and not enable the abuse to a "crime" where it effects others, but merely a "vice" that only effects the user. That is really what it comes down to for me, I see not one positive reason to use these drugs other than to gratify your own needs and wants at the expense of your loved ones.

And be reasonable. Sure I could make the argument that firearms are the same way. I get so wrapped up in shooting events, buying guns and reloading supplies, and I really don't share in that with my wife. I do share it with my friends occassionally. But wait! There is that whole self-defense and the defense of my house and immediate area. See that makes firearms not just a vice, but a necessary activity that I beleive is justified to make everyone's life happy.
 
Can someone make that case for cocaine, heroin, PCP, and all of the other abusive drugs (include marijuana if you want just because I am on the border with that one).

Actually, things like crack, heroin, PCP, etc, all of the drugs usually named as the most harmful, probably would not have a market if drugs were made legal. They are extremely cheap and easy to make, so they cost the least, and so are bought the most. If a real drug company starting turning out good-quality cocaine and a decent price, who would buy crack? Cocaine is nowhere nearly as dangerous or physically addictive as crack. Yes, it isn't exactly heathly, but it isn't anywhere near as bad as it's been demonized to be.

As an analogy, zip guns are most common where legal firearms are prohibited. They are popular in places where real firearms are hard to get, mostly because they are cheap and easy to make. How common are zip guns in places like Texas, or any other state that has as good or better gun laws?
 
Actually, things like crack, heroin, PCP, etc, all of the drugs usually named as the most harmful, probably would not have a market if drugs were made legal. They are extremely cheap and easy to make, so they cost the least, and so are bought the most. If a real drug company starting turning out good-quality cocaine and a decent price, who would buy crack? Cocaine is nowhere nearly as dangerous or physically addictive as crack. Yes, it isn't exactly heathly, but it isn't anywhere near as bad as it's been demonized to be.
Aye! Where to begin! :rolleyes: Making good high quality cocaine would help? :rolleyes: Duh, why do you think crack is such a big hit. It's a way of concentraiting the cocaine by getting rid of some of the impurities making it stronger! So pure cocaine would somehow be "better"? :banghead: Cocaine, period, is one of the most addictive substances known to man.
 
Aye! Where to begin! Making good high quality cocaine would help? Duh, why do you think crack is such a big hit. It's a way of concentraiting the cocaine by getting rid of some of the impurities making it stronger! So pure cocaine would somehow be "better"? Cocaine, period, is one of the most addictive substances known to man.

Crack is made by cooking baking soda with cocaine, then the resulting "rocks" are smoked. Normal cocaine cannot be smoked because the active ingedient decomposes when burned, but cooking it with the soda fixes this problem. The vast majority of a "rock" is nothing more than baking soda. Crack is popular mostly because it is cheap (mostly baking soda) and the initial "high" is "higher", if much, much, much shorter. The way it is used is what causes different effects on the brain that make it more addictive.

So yes, pure cocacine would be better and less physically addictive. Notice that I never said it was not addictive at all. Also, please note the difference between a physical addiction and a psychological addiction (OCD). Psychological addiction depends solely on the user.
 
Do I want to become an apathetic individual that says if someone wants to completely throw their life and their family's life down the drain at the expense of these drugs that is their right?
El Rojo,
No one can question your motives. I believe wholeheartedly that your intentions are the best and your desire for the well-being of others is honorable.
By the same token, I know some die-hard anti-gunners and alcohol prohibitionists that feel the same way. We may disagree, but I do not question that your desire of control is not for personal gain but out of true desire for others to live well.

I don't disagree with your goals, I simply disagree with your methodology from ideological as well as practical perspectives. Today, people who want to poison themselves do so regardless of law, or they follow law and slowly kill themselves with a legal chemical. When they are caught abusing an illegal chemical, they are imprisoned. I don't see this as really helping anyone.
Just about every counter issue people bring up with me, there is a legitimate use of that substance or object that in my mind makes the sometimes negative effects unfortunate, but necessary.

Can someone make that case for cocaine, heroin, PCP, and all of the other abusive drugs (include marijuana if you want just because I am on the border with that one).
Cocaine hydrochloride works well as a topical anaesthetic.

Heroin (diamorphine) is a synthetic opiate derived from morphine, a commonly used painkiller. Both are closely related to Codeine - a weaker opiate that is also commonly prescribed.

PCP or phencyclidine is an animal tranquilizer.

Most illegal drugs have a good, worthwhile use that is not more harmful than prescription medications. It is abuse that causes damage.

I can't think of a beneficial use of tobacco, though. Despite all its dangers. Maybe we should outlaw that.
 
Aside from my philosophical disagreements with the War on Some Drugs (it is not my place to use force to prevent another consenting, rational adult from engaging in a vice), what it comes down to is a case of the cure being far worse than the disease.

We've managed to spend billions of dollars, trample on our civil liberties, and pump up violent crime while accomplishing...what? All the War on Some Drugs has accomplished is to increase violent crime, fund criminal syndicates, and make drugs look "risky and cool" to kids. We have created a "zero tolerance" mindset which prompts schools to expel students if they're caught with so much as a Tylenol caplet!
 
There was some research in the 1950s/1960s which concluded that there is a direct connection between nicotine and increased brain activity. (Better neuron connections? Dunno.) I do know that when I do simple physical things such as run my backhoe or road grader or hunt, I have little urge to smoke. When I get into conversations with bright people and ideas are flowing, I smoke much more.

As for heroin, it's the only pain-killing alternative to cutting the spinal cord, to alleviate pain during the final stages of some cancers.

Art
 
Schizophrenics (sp?) are encouraged to smoke -- they can self-medicate somewhat using tobacco.
Thanks Derek. I didn't know that. Is it the act of smoking (repeating a familiar action) that helps or does tobacco itself actually help treat the disorder?
There was some research in the 1950s/1960s which concluded that there is a direct connection between nicotine and increased brain activity.
*breaks out the meerschaum and a packet of burley*
 
And this is not a simple issue, but people try to make it a simple issue.

Sure it is. I am not a slave. No one has the right to tell me what to do for my own good. Neither you nor society should be able to telll me what is my best interest, whether it be what I eat, the car I drive, or what I wear.

I see not one positive reason to use these drugs other than to gratify your own needs and wants at the expense of your loved ones.

So what? As I said, Americans are free people. If someone wants to gratify their own needs, it should be none of your business. And none of societies business. At whose expense? That is between the individual and their loved ones if they have any.

Please someone tell me what positive benefits people will get from using these drugs.

I assume they like the way they feel when they take them. That they want to take them is enough. They aren't slaves, no one owns them, and anything they want to do which does not hurt anyone else is solely their business.
 
They aren't slaves, no one owns them, and anything they want to do which does not hurt anyone else is solely their business.
Maybe I am wrong, but I keep pointing out that I believe that drug abuse is not a victimless crime. If you are too busy spending your time and energy getting high, how do you support your family. What say does a 10 year old have in their parent's abuse of drugs? When those kids are taken from the home and placed into the system that affects us all. True back in the day family would take over that responsibility and that was a good thing, but not anymore. I just don't view drug abuse as a victimless crime.

Ok, we have doctors prescribe drugs to alleviate pain, sure I am all for that. If they think a patient needs heroin to reduce the pain, sure why not. Doctor's can for the most part be pretty good about issuing prescriptions with the intent not to start an addiction. If someone is on their last breath and doesn't have a hope and they want to go out a zombie, I think that might be warranted.

When they are caught abusing an illegal chemical, they are imprisoned. I don't see this as really helping anyone.
As much as I think drugs should be illegal, I might be more liberal on my views of incarceration due to my working in a federal prison where there are a substantial number of drug offenders. First, there are treatment programs and inmates can receive up to a year off their sentence for participating. Might many of them participate just to get a year off, you bet. However, there is something. Second, I agree that spending 10 years in a federal prison for having some crack on you and running from the cops seems a bit severe to me. Especially if you consider that someone who illegally imports prostitutes into the country by force and rapes them can get the same time. I would be a firm advocate of making prison timer served harder with less niceties and shortening sentences. Hell, the prison I work at is pretty much easy street. If you cut those sentences in half or even more and made prison a really bad place to be rather than just a bad place to be, I think it would have the same deterrent factor at a reduced cost. Third, making drugs illegal is a deterrent in itself. Yes, getting caught and getting sent to prison might not cure the offender; however, how many people might be discouraged from trying drugs because it is against the law vs. the number of people who might try drugs and get hooked because they are legal? I think this is a very interesting point. Maybe there is some research out there on this or maybe some correlations can be drawn from the information war on tobacco. After all, the federal and state governments are pulling a no holds barred campaign against smoking. I wonder how well that is working. Could the same thing go for legalized drugs? As I have said before, just because people are still doing drugs doesn't mean that the law is not working. After all, we still have murders and we still have rapes and those two activities have been illegal for a long time.

I am by no means a bleeding heart, but sticking some guy in prison for 10 years of his most productive life and then releasing him doesn't seem to give him many options. It just seems to me to make him pretty likely to be back. Just because I think drugs should be illegal, doesn't mean you can't lighten up the sentence. Hell, make it like getting a ticket for speeding if you want. The main idea for me is a deterrent. No it is not perfect, but no deterrent really is.
 
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