A .45 ACP kind of morning

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rwc

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I've been thinking about a .45 for a while now and decided to spend a few hours at the range this morning. I fired 3 shot groups through each of the following:

Auto Ordinance 1911
Glock G30, G36
Kimber 1911 Ultra Carry II, Compact Stainless II, Pro Carry II, Custom II (w/ Crimson trace laser grip), Custom TLE/RL II, Stainless Target II
Para Ordinance 12.45 LDA Carry, P 14.45 SA, LDA CCO, SSP SA, Warthog
SIG P220ST, GSR, P245, P220
S&W 457S, 99 (aka Walther), 1911 Scandium
Spectre 416 Stainless
Springfield Armory 1911 Loaded w/ night sights, Loaded stainless

I found that the Glock G30, the Para LDA CCO and the S&W 457S shot the best for me of the double actions.

Among the 1911s the SIG GSR, Springfield Loaded, Kimber Target II, and Kimber Ultra Carry II (surprisingly for such a small pistol) all shot well for me. The traditional 1911 grip was a bit narrow for me and those pistols with either thin grip panels or a slender grip weren't as controllable for me.

FYI - The range master didn't have nice things to say about any of the external extractors which he has to replace frequently (granted, these pistols see a lot of use).

Decisions, decisions...

All opinions welcome.
 
Might not be an issue

as you mentioned that the 1911 grip was too slim for your comfort, but if you do decide on one, avoid the external extractor. There are techies out there who have to have the latest and greatest and are convinced because it's new it's better. Sometimes, not always. External extractors fall in the second category. Many pistols have been designed from the ground up to have this type of extractor and it works. How many Ruger P series do you hear folks complain about? Virtually none. The design has not been adapted well to the 1911, though. Don't take my word for it, see some of the threads on this and other sites. Ultimately, your money, your decision.
 
Man, I wouldn't want to clean all those. Nice report tho. I've had a Smith 457 for some years and its an incredible little gun for the money. Feeds anything, and shoots better than me. But when all is said and done, the 1911's fit my hand and trigger finger best. Just bought a CZ 97B and have only put 40 test rounds thru. Functioned perfectly, but it just doesn't have the "feel" I'm used to. Will work with it awhile to see if I can get comfortable with it...otherwise it goes on the block. I only keep on hand those that I can shoot often, which makes for some small numbers.
 
the 1911 grip was too slim
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I'm not too worried about it. There seem to be no shortage of after-market grips. The high capacity pistols naturally have a much thicker grip, and I like the greater capacity. I've got pretty large hands so they just see to work better for me. I had a similar issue with the Warthog and other super-compact 1911s where I couldn't get a comfortable one handed grip, let alone a solid double hand grip (whatever that is properly called).

I feel sufficently warned away from external extractors, although in all probability I am unlikely to have an annual round count that would put me much at risk. For me it is more a question of absolute reliability for defense.

I wouldn't want to clean all those.
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Me either, although it would be a good way to get to know them better. Frankly, I don't think they clean them all that often. Run 'em until they jam seems most likely.

I've had a Smith 457 for some years
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I was quite surprised by how well it shot. That said, the controls weren't well positioned for me. And it just seems like if I were to buy a Smith it ought to be a revolver.
 
Are you trying to narrow the choices down to purchase one? A lot of those guns are so completely different from eachother that they share nothing other than caliber. (Glock 30 vs. 1911.)

If I had to pick just one out of the entire lot I'd go with the Sig P220ST. You will die of old age before you wear that one out. ;)
 
Can't go wrong with a G30. Then again, I'm biased. :D You get 10 + 1 in such a compact package. :)
 
Can't go wrong with a G30. Then again, I'm biased. You get 10 + 1 in such a compact package.
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There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.

You get your "10+1" capacity at the expense of a fat and less concealable butt.
 
My SW1911SC has an external exctractor and has never given my problem one. Not sure if the internal/external exctractor issue is all that valid. Wasn't Browning's original design with an external extractor? My Colts' have internal extractors and they are 100% reliable too. I guess I didn't give it much thought when I bought the S&W. It is my favorite .45 1911 now, shoots circles around my Colts with longer barrels.
 
There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.

You get your "10+1" capacity at the expense of a fat and less concealable butt.
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Some of us guys like fat butts. :D
 
Are you trying to narrow the choices down to purchase one?
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Yes.
I intentionally tried everything they had in a .45. I will admit to some prejudices against Glocks (a Kaboom 20+ years ago) and SA pistols (I've mostly shot DAs). This expereince tempered both those prejudices. I am open to any suggestions and welcome all opinions.
 
I've recently become a big fan of Para Ordnance pistols. My CCW piece is their CCW model (LDA, single stack, commander slide on officer frame). It shoots much better than I can and is 100% reliable. I love the combination of the 4.25" barrel/slide with the shorter officer frame, as it keeps the reliability and sight radius of the longer barrel while giving the lighter weight and enhanced reliability of the shorter frame. The only downside is the loss of 1 round of capacity, but with 6+1 45ACP Winchester RA45T 230 grain law enforcement rounds at my side, I never feel underarmed. Besides, I always have an extra mag with me for the off chance that I need more.

I like the thin profile of the 1911, though, and it sounds like you don't. I even put slim alumagrips on mine to make it even thinner than stock. I switched from a Glock to the Para in large part because I wanted a thinner package that was easier to conceal and more comfortable (I carry IWB).

I also have a Para SSP, which is the full size, single action, single stack. Mine has been 100% reliable and is very, very accurate for a 1911. Both the SSP and the CCW have the proprietary Para "Power Extractor", which is an internal extractor with a massive claw (50% larger than a stock 1911 extractor) and tensioned by a coil spring instead of the standard leaf spring. It works great and never needs adjusting. All Para pistols from 2004 on have the new extractor design, and are marked "PXT" on the slide.
 
You need to try an HK USP Fullsize and Compact.

They are great guns, and can be had in many different firing modes. Mine are SA/DA, with the option of carrying cocked and locked.

Try one, you'll love it.

Steve
 
You need to try an HK USP Fullsize and Compact.

They are great guns, and can be had in many different firing modes. Mine are SA/DA, with the option of carrying cocked and locked.

Try one, you'll love it.
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I can't disagree with that. My next is a USPc in 9. :D
 
Ewwww I can't stand those snobs at Wade's. I have never been treated so rudely in my life.

Bullseye has a busload of .45s. When you rent a .45 you can fire any and all .45s in the case.

I just wish Bullseye wasn't so far away. As it is I shoot every Friday at Sam's in South Everett.

Hmmm I think it's time to organize another shoot.
 
I took your advice and spent a lunch hour at Bullseye. I shot the following:

HK USP Fullsize and compact
Springfield Ultra compact
Para Ordinance 14-45 Ltd and Carry LDA
Glock 19 and 30

I did like the HKs. I thought they stayed on target nicely and fit my hands well. I did not care much for the mag release which is incorporated into the trigger guard and without a knurle (sp.?) on the compact's hammer I had to rack the slide to cock it. I assume this meant it was set up as SA.

The Springer stayed on target well for its size, helped a bit I think by some wrap-around Hogue grips that were on it.

The Paras shot nicely.

The Glocks shot the same as always. No surprises there.
 
I have yet to figure the need for the multi piece external extractor on a 1911. I have never seen one fail that was not a MIM piece, and that gun is gone and that was not the only reason.

A single piece of A2 tool steel properly heat treated will not wear out in a 1911. The whole issue of a 1911 was to be a combat arm. Designed to be completely taken apart without tools. And of course, completely reassembled into firing condition without tools. To take one piece of nearly indestructable steel and substitute four or more pieces makes NO sense what ever, NONE> IF IT WORKS DO NOT FIX IT> simple.

It is a marketing hoax and I love my para's but I will not buy a new one till they go back to internal extractor.
 
The Paras I have shot over the last few weeks all had internal extractors, as compared to the Kimbers. I may be displaying my ignorance, but If no part of the extractor is exposed or cut-out through the slide I assumed it was an internal extractor.

Pete f - if your point is that a simple design has been replaced bya more complex one then I think that is true. As I understand it from talking to folks who have shot 1911s for a long time the main issue with extractor failure is chambering a round and releasing the slide to let it slam forward (as opposed to feeding a round in via the magazine). There may be other causes of extractor failure but that was what was described to me, I have not experienced it. From comparing the pistols I have shot in the last few weeks there is quite a bit of variation out there once you get beyond a "pure" 1911. The Para extracor does seem larger. I do not claim to be a purist by any means, I am looking primarily for a reliable pistol that will spend most of its time in a small vault next to my bed, but which must work when called upon to do so. I'll probably leave the serious 1911s for another day if I ever decide to compete.
 
Pete f wrote:
A single piece of A2 tool steel properly heat treated will not wear out in a 1911. The whole issue of a 1911 was to be a combat arm. Designed to be completely taken apart without tools. And of course, completely reassembled into firing condition without tools. To take one piece of nearly indestructable steel and substitute four or more pieces makes NO sense what ever, NONE> IF IT WORKS DO NOT FIX IT> simple.

It is a marketing hoax and I love my para's but I will not buy a new one till they go back to internal extractor.
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I will disagree with you, there. The extractor design has always been the achilles heel of the 1911. Yes, most problems were caused by letting the slide slam on a chambered round, but: (1) many people do abuse their guns, intentionally or unintentionally; and (2) leaf springs are inherently inferior to coil springs.

It is indeed possible to manufacture a traditional style spring steel internal extractor and keep it running on a 1911 for thousands of rounds. Experience has shown that that isn't what usually happens. Whether from inferior metallurgy, abuse, or simple quality control, traditional style extractors do wear out or break. A lot. Ask any experienced gunsmith. They'll tell you that the most common failure on a 1911 is the extractor. Many just need to be adjusted, but others have fatigued so much that they lose tension or break.

Para's Power Extractor is an internal extractor. Unlike the external designs used by most manufacturers, it is completely inside the slide and therefore not susceptible to jamming or wearing from dirt.

Unlike the traditional internal extractor, however, it is tensioned by a coil spring. Bill Ruger has pretty clearly demonstrated the superiority of coil springs in his single action revolver designs. I've never seen a coil sprung Blackhawk fail. The Blackhawk's legendary reliability is due almost entirely to its use of coil springs in place of leaf springs. I've personally broken dozens of leaf springs (big mains and tiny hand springs -- both break just as frequently) in leaf-sprung Colts and clones. It's inevitable when you put tens of thousands of rounds through one of them, as leaf springs just can't take that kind of cyclic loading without excessive metal fatigue.

The fact that a coil spring also does not fatigue anywhere near as quickly as a leaf also means that it won't lose tension and go out of adjustment as quickly.

The Para Power Extractor also has a much larger claw, meaning it grabs a lot more of the case rim than a traditional extractor. I don't care how dirty your chamber is, how rough it is, and what pressure your loads are, the PXT won't leave the case in the chamber.

There are lots of marketing gimmicks used to sell guns. "tactical" rails and front slide serrations are good examples. The Para Power Extractor, however, is an honest-to-goodness engineering improvement.
 
rwc...

Without highjacking your thread, would you PM me re the story on the GLOCK KaBoom?

Thank you.

-Andy B
 
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