A bs claim on 7.62x39 ballistics
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By 'Twin' I believe B.E. was referring to the Velocity/Trajectory signatures of the two cartridges.
If you take a look at them, they are very similar with the x39 outrunning the .30-30 by a small margin. (I believe this is due to its more conical nose compared to the more rounded nose of the .30-30 increasing its BC.)
desidog
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Maybe not from an AK, maybe not with surplus ammo, but my 20"bbl 7.62x39 AR with Simmons 6.5-20x50 mil dot scope on it can definitely rise to a 600yd challenge...but at 600 the bullet is about out of gas, and is probably destabilized after passing back through the sound barrier...so i'd consider it a pot-shot, not precision shooting.
/Too bad there's no range that long around here.
/Too bad there's no range that long around here.
rcmodel
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I'd bet you could find some Iraq & Afghanistan vets who would disagree with you.
While the 7.62x39 is not noted for 600 yard accuracy, a good shot with an AK47, or especially an RPK or RPD machinegun would make life very uncomfortable for you in short order at 600 yards I betcha!
rc
tahunua001
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I can kick up dirt at 1000 yards with a 5.56, is it going to hit anywhere near what I was shooting at? with me shooting and the optics I have on it now...no way jose but still..it kicks up the dirt. +p loads with a lighter bullet would probably decrease wind drift and bullet drop to the point that you would reach 600 yards but it would still be nowhere near MOA.
mortablunt
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The rounds can easily make it that far, just don't count on superb accuracy. Well, the AK-103 might be capable of doing that, but good luck getting a real one. I could do the mathematics to calculate optimal range, but I don't feel like digging through my notebooks.
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The only way an x 39 will shoot 600 yards is if you run 400 then shoot.
A .45 acp, which is ballistically far less than a 7.62x39, will make it 400 yards away. A .22 lr, again ballistically inferior to 7.62x39, can be launched over a mile. 7.62x39 will also reach past a mile.
Gunnerboy
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Whats so strange about this claim you could point any gun any at a certain angle and hist dirt 600yds away dosent mean its accurate or got any killing power left but you can hit it, also depends on the size of the dirt pile if that dirt pile happens to be mount sarabachi on iwo jima then you better be able to hit it at 600 yds.
Baba Louie
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When the 7.62x39 is zero'd at 100 yds, 400 yds would be a drop of 78" +/- or nearabouts, IIRC. Not to mention wind lateral deflection. While it might hit near the 7mm mag POI it'd be coming from above and be mighty tired from the exertion involved.
I would love to see someone shoot a run o' the mill AK chambered in that caliber that accurate, that far, consistently. That'd be some fine shootin'.
I would love to see someone shoot a run o' the mill AK chambered in that caliber that accurate, that far, consistently. That'd be some fine shootin'.
dprice3844444
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it will still hurt like a bitch at that yardage also
Strykervet
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I taught SDM's to shoot 5.56 to 600m using an M4 with an ACOG. One guy though we should have used accurized AK's in the early days of SDM training since the army didn't want to buy us real rifles at that time.
The Iraqi's had the Tabuk. A modified RPK, an SDM rifle.
My buddy was killed by one of these rifles from a range of over 400m, and two other guys hit.
How far a round will go and how accurate it is at range and where it will land compared to another cartridge when fired at the same angle are three different things. The x39 will most definitely make it past 600m, and I bet some are built well enough to engage point targets at that range (though I bet they are few and expensive). For an area target, I'd have no problem opening up at 1000m with one.
FWIW, the manual for the SAW mentions firing the machinegun at an extreme angle using tracer rounds in order to hit targets behind cover. Like behind sandbags or in a trench. If you shoot directly at the target, you hit the cover. But if you shoot ridiculously high, you can arc the rounds in like mortar fire and hit the targets behind the cover. The rounds go several miles if I recall correctly, and it can be done but it is difficult. Also, the tracers burn out before they make it to the target, which leads me to believe not everything in the SAW manual was actually tested out beforehand. It works, they will go that far, but hitting the target is tremendously difficult this way.
BTW, there is a guy that took a bet on another site that he couldn't accurately hit a target at one mile with a 5.56. He did it. A 55gal. drum at one mile, a Savage rifle and a mediocre scope and he could consistently hit a target to a mile. He did it using cheap parts and home gunsmithing to prove it wasn't some scientific one-off experiment, ie, anyone can do it.
Most limitations on weapons have to do with the a combination of the shooter, the action type and type of weapon, calibre, etc., but in all instances, these limitations are conservative to take into consideration that the shot will reliably perform as stated. While most can outperform these parameters, some rifles, some shooters, some calibres cannot. Also, a trick shot isn't a "normal" shot, so rifles are typically limited in literature based on a few variables.
But a well trained shooter and one well versed in building accurized weapons, in addition to having other skills and mathematical prowess, is capable of significantly stretching the parameters.
Basically, if you read the manual and it says "X" and you have no questions or don't think to yourself, "hey, I can shoot farther/better than they say" then that book was meant for you and you should follow it. If you think, "BS, I can shoot this rifle 200m farther and more accurate" etc., then your advanced skills only highlight the fact these manuals are a one size fits all kept simple for simplicty's sake.
On the other hand, take a look at the BC of the x39. The BC of the x51 isn't that impressive compared to 6.5mm projectiles, the x39 would be even worse. So even though it can make it to 1000m, it probably won't be all that accurate or even all that fast. But it will make it.
The Iraqi's had the Tabuk. A modified RPK, an SDM rifle.
My buddy was killed by one of these rifles from a range of over 400m, and two other guys hit.
How far a round will go and how accurate it is at range and where it will land compared to another cartridge when fired at the same angle are three different things. The x39 will most definitely make it past 600m, and I bet some are built well enough to engage point targets at that range (though I bet they are few and expensive). For an area target, I'd have no problem opening up at 1000m with one.
FWIW, the manual for the SAW mentions firing the machinegun at an extreme angle using tracer rounds in order to hit targets behind cover. Like behind sandbags or in a trench. If you shoot directly at the target, you hit the cover. But if you shoot ridiculously high, you can arc the rounds in like mortar fire and hit the targets behind the cover. The rounds go several miles if I recall correctly, and it can be done but it is difficult. Also, the tracers burn out before they make it to the target, which leads me to believe not everything in the SAW manual was actually tested out beforehand. It works, they will go that far, but hitting the target is tremendously difficult this way.
BTW, there is a guy that took a bet on another site that he couldn't accurately hit a target at one mile with a 5.56. He did it. A 55gal. drum at one mile, a Savage rifle and a mediocre scope and he could consistently hit a target to a mile. He did it using cheap parts and home gunsmithing to prove it wasn't some scientific one-off experiment, ie, anyone can do it.
Most limitations on weapons have to do with the a combination of the shooter, the action type and type of weapon, calibre, etc., but in all instances, these limitations are conservative to take into consideration that the shot will reliably perform as stated. While most can outperform these parameters, some rifles, some shooters, some calibres cannot. Also, a trick shot isn't a "normal" shot, so rifles are typically limited in literature based on a few variables.
But a well trained shooter and one well versed in building accurized weapons, in addition to having other skills and mathematical prowess, is capable of significantly stretching the parameters.
Basically, if you read the manual and it says "X" and you have no questions or don't think to yourself, "hey, I can shoot farther/better than they say" then that book was meant for you and you should follow it. If you think, "BS, I can shoot this rifle 200m farther and more accurate" etc., then your advanced skills only highlight the fact these manuals are a one size fits all kept simple for simplicty's sake.
On the other hand, take a look at the BC of the x39. The BC of the x51 isn't that impressive compared to 6.5mm projectiles, the x39 would be even worse. So even though it can make it to 1000m, it probably won't be all that accurate or even all that fast. But it will make it.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Old hat for the Army.
That was thought to be the way machineguns would be employed when they were first invented.
Plunging or indirect fire was thought to be the most effective method of using them, just like howitzers.
At the same time, it was a prescribed training method for the single-shot and bolt-action army rifles of the time, and a battle tactic sometimes employed.
That is why those old military rifles had such ridiculous ranges on the adjustable sights.
Nobody was expected to hit anything individually at 1,200 yards with a 45-70 trap-door Springfield.
But the sights were adjustable for plunging or indirect fire that far away when a whole company cranked up the sights and whanged away at a beaten zone they could hardly see 2/3 of a mile away.
rc
essayons21
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Legend has it that one of the reasons for the creation of the NRA by a group of retired Civil War generals was because the Ordnance Department in the late 1800s was proposing the replacement of notch sights on rifles with a bubble level. The officer would call out the range of the advancing enemy, the soldier would simply elevate the rifle until the bubble rested on the indicated range, and the company would fire.
Having been on the receiving end of 7.62x39mm used as indirect fire I can say that while it is largely ineffective, it can be plenty deadly.
Having been on the receiving end of 7.62x39mm used as indirect fire I can say that while it is largely ineffective, it can be plenty deadly.
After watching Bob Munden hit a 200 yard pistol sized target with a .38 snubbie open sighted, I would have no problem accepting that a 600 yard shot with a 7.62x39 is not that much different as a feat of marksmanship provided someone uses quality ammo. A scope would defnitely help also.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Maybe it would, and maybe it wouldn't.
Ever see what an NRA Hi-Power shooter can do at 800 or 1,000 yards with an iron sighted M1 Garand or M14 match rifle?
rc
Well, for us folks that eye sight might not be so clear at over 400 yards a scope would be most welcome. I have a Vepr AK with a rear peep sight and an overall 28 inch sight radius which is great for longer ranges but it takes good eyesight to really get full use of that.
JustinJ
Member
What do you think is special about the 103 that would make it's accuracy any better than any other well made AK? Its really just a an AK74 chambered in in 7.62.
And you can get an almost exact AK103 from arsenal with original Russian or Bulgarian receiver, barrel, bolt, carreir, etc. Aside from the lack of select fire a few american parts it is a real AK103.
bigedp51
member
Elmer Keith the father of the .44 magnum and author of "Hell, I Was There" while working at an Army munitions plant during WWII used a Government model .45 to shoot a 55 gal drum at 300 yards.The senior Army ordinance officer with Elmer Keith at the time had complained the .45 was inaccurate past 25 yards.
The sights on my Enfield rifles go up to 1200 yards and the British were famous for their deadly volley fire accuracy.
I sold my AK because I reload and hate rifles that throw my brass away. :banghead:
(and I also hate rifles that aren't very accurate)
Content in poor taste removed. -Mgmt.
The sights on my Enfield rifles go up to 1200 yards and the British were famous for their deadly volley fire accuracy.
I sold my AK because I reload and hate rifles that throw my brass away. :banghead:
(and I also hate rifles that aren't very accurate)
Content in poor taste removed. -Mgmt.
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Hitting 1' lower at 600 yards is certainly possible. It just depends on how the sights were adjusted.
With a 7.62X39 zeroed at 500 yards and a 7mm Rem mag zeroed at 200 yards the point of impact at 600 would be almost identical.
With a 7.62X39 zeroed at 500 yards and a 7mm Rem mag zeroed at 200 yards the point of impact at 600 would be almost identical.
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The .45 acp caliber or the 1911 design?
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I think the issue is whether the x39 has the same hold over as the 7mm magnum as claimed in the video. Personally I am skeptical that the range he thought he was shooting at was 600. Seemed to me that it was about half that distance but there is no way of telling.
(My italics)
The main point folks have made is the 7.62X39 is not going to match the 7mm Mag.
If this fellow can make an AK lob bullets to 6 & 7 hundred yards into the same small circle of dirt as the 7MM Mag with its much, much, flatter trajectory, I am impressed.
brnmuenchow
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Quote:
"Will the 7.62 X 39 shoot 700 yards? Sure. Will it do it on the same trajectory as the 7MM Mag? LOL..."
Yep!
Precision shot: NO.
Will it kill you if it hits you: Very possible.
"Will the 7.62 X 39 shoot 700 yards? Sure. Will it do it on the same trajectory as the 7MM Mag? LOL..."
Yep!
Precision shot: NO.
Will it kill you if it hits you: Very possible.
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