A bump in the night, you grab your 1911 ...

[Old Dog]

So what is the real difference between holding one's 1911 at a ready position, safety off, trigger-finger indexed ... or holding one's Glock or M&P at a ready position, trigger-finger indexed? Assuming a bit of increased adrenaline flow due to believing there's a possible threat, do you really believe that an ND is more likely with a 1911?

Having asked that, if I were to grab a pistol that had a frame-mounted safety in the OP's scenario, absent any visible threat, I would have the safety up but my thumb on top.

 

[Kleanbore]

I'm looking for a raccoon but if I thought someone was in my house I'd be barricaded and on the phone with 911.

Why are you walking around with a gun, not knowing what is happening? Do you intend to shoot the raccoon?

 

[guyfromohio]

Why are you walking around with a gun, not knowing what is happening? Do you intend to shoot the raccoon?

"Better to have and not need than to need and not have" or some such phrasing.

 

[shafter]

I'm a firm believer that if you think someone is in your house you should not go looking for him and instead barricade and call the police. However, it isn't realistic to call the police for every little creak and squeak. Houses make noise on their own and if you have a pet they can also make noises that may wake you up. If you're checking to see what the cat knocked over in the kitchen or if the raccoons are in the garbage again it's wise to bring your pistol just in case you run into something unexpected. If you bring your weapon it's prudent to carry it in a safe and tactical manner.

 

[Jeff White]

So what is the real difference between holding one's 1911 at a ready position, safety off, trigger-finger indexed ... or holding one's Glock or M&P at a ready position, trigger-finger indexed? Assuming a bit of increased adrenaline flow due to believing there's a possible threat, do you really believe that an ND is more likely with a 1911?

Having asked that, if I were to grab a pistol that had a frame-mounted safety in the OP's scenario, absent any visible threat, I would have the safety up but my thumb on top.

It depends on the 1911. A lot of competitors shoot very light triggers and some block the grip safety. A 1911 set up like that is no longer a service weapon and in my opinion does have a higher probability of an ND then a Glock or an M&P.

 

[Old Dog]

It depends on the 1911. A lot of competitors shoot very light triggers and some block the grip safety. A 1911 set up like that is no longer a service weapon and in my opinion does have a higher probability of an ND then a Glock or an M&P.

Well ... I submit that if someone is using one's IPSC 1911 as a nightstand gun ... one would be considered in these parts rather a moron. My point was -- and my belief is -- that the average gun-owner with no combat or LE patrol experience, little handgun training and no training whatsoever clearing buildings and rooms is at least as likely a candidate for an ND whether he's carrying a Glock, an M&P or a 1911 off-safe. When the heart is pounding and the startle reflex kicks in, a two, four, six or eight pound difference in trigger pull weight matters naught -- if Rule #3 is in the process of being broken. But, that's only my experience as far as what I've personally borne witness to ...

And I'd also point out that nowadays, there's sure got to be a lot more Glocks doing nightstand/home-defense duty than 1911s.

 

[Jeff White]

Well ... I submit that if someone is using one's IPSC 1911 as a nightstand gun ... one would be considered in these parts rather a moron.

I know "morons" that do.

Anyone with military or LE experience isn't clearing a building alone.

 

[shafter]

That depends on the law enforcement. Troopers and deputies working rural patrol clear a lot of buildings alone. Is it tactically sound, nope; does it suck, it sure does; but when backup is 45 minutes away or maybe still in bed on call you end up doing what you have to do. Every time I do it it reinforces in my mind that anyone who does it when they have recourse is an idiot.

 

[Rexster]

Unless I have visually perceived a target, my 1911's thumb safety normally remains on-safe, with thumb on top of the safety, and my trigger finger indexed. I am very comfortable with the manipulation of the thumb safety, so feel no need to wipe the safety to the "fire" position, until the moment of firing the weapon.

The above paragraph is for "normal" occasions. If circumstances dictate left-handed operation of a 1911, well, my trigger finger becomes my only active safety, as if I were handling a Glock or similar weapon, because the thumb safety will be off-safed as soon as the weapon is in-hand. (Yes, I am aware that ambidextrous safeties exist.) Ideally, if I use a handgun left-handed, I will use a Glock or revolver.

As for "clearing" a house or other structure, that is best done by a team of at least three experienced, trained persons, preferably those who have trained together. (Of course, sometimes, a best practice is not possible.) This is not armchair speculation on my part; I work big-city police patrol, night shift, and have survived nearly one-third of a century of clearing structures of things that went bump in the night. Now that our standard uniform duty holster is the Safariland 6360, which lets me get a proper firing grip on a 1911 at the outset of the draw, I recently resumed carrying a 1911 while on duty, for the first time since 2002. (The previous standard uniform holster, the Safariland 070, did not facilitate my getting a consistently proper grip on a 1911.)

 

[Old Dog]

Jeff, with all due respect -- I think you still did not address my points.

Thank goodness at least one of you also understands the challenges faced by a rural state trooper or sheriff's deputy responding to a call alone.

 

[Jeff White]

I cleared exactly one building alone. There were a few times the property owner went in with me, but for the most part around here we waited for a deputy, a trooper or an officer from a nearby jurisdiction. We lived by the mutual aid agreement. Might be a 30 minute or longer waiting for backup. In a bigger county with jurisdictions spread out farther apart that might not have been possible.

Old Dog, as for your original question, if you aren't carrying a tricked out 1911 that would be unsuitable for duty use the action type is no more complicated then any other service weapon. I know too many shooters who think their racegun makes a good service weapon because that's what they shoot all the time. Can't get them to listen to reason about real life being somewhat different then the match envirionmemt and the practice range.

I carried a 1911 (Kimber Warrior) as a duty weapon the last 5 years I worked. I've got nothing against the action type.

 

[Kleanbore]

So what is the real difference between holding one's 1911 at a ready position, safety off, trigger-finger indexed ... or holding one's Glock or M&P at a ready position, trigger-finger indexed? Assuming a bit of increased adrenaline flow due to believing there's a possible threat, do you really believe that an ND is more likely with a 1911?

Having asked that, if I were to grab a pistol that had a frame-mounted safety in the OP's scenario, absent any visible threat, I would have the safety up but my thumb on top.

Might I respectfully suggest that, if one is going about investigating a "possible threat". the risk of being ambushed, perhaps in a crossfire, is at least as great, if not a whole lot greater, than that of having a negligent discharge.

This subject has been discussed here at great length over the past half-dozen years or more. FoF simulations in shoot houses have told us that, even in very familiar surroundings, the one who goes out hunting is much more likely to be shot than is the hunted.

That's why "going it alone" is more than foolhardy.

The fact that one might have been thinking that he had heard a raccoon would not make a real human intruder, should there be one, any less dangerous.

If one cannot distinguish between a random sound of something being knocked over and the sound of footsteps following the breaking of a door, he should not assume that he has likely heard a raccoon. And if he does not have a reason for believing that the danger is minimal,, the only reason he should expose himself to danger is to gather the family.

And in the doing of that, he had better make darn sure that he does not shoot a family member. That happens.

 

[Old Dog]

Gosh, guys ... really, all I was speaking to was my belief that going out carrying a 1911 off-safe (assuming one was observing Rule #3) was no more un-safe than going out carrying a Glock or similar striker-fired pistol with no manual safety (same assumption).

 

[Kleanbore]

Gosh, guys ... really, all I was speaking to was my belief that going out carrying a 1911 off-safe (assuming one was observing Rule #3) was no more un-safe than going out carrying a Glock or similar striker-fired pistol with no manual safety (same assumption).

Well, the significantly lower trigger pull weight and the shorter pull make the 1911 much more sensitive to an unintentional discharged than the others, and when one is walking around investigating, one has no target to be sure of, or an way of knowing all that may be hidden behind any opaque cover at which the gun is pointing.

 

[Shaq]

Interesting, thought-provoking question.
I prefer a D.A. auto (at least for the first shot) or a Glock or a D.A. revolver for a house gun. I'd rather not have to deal with safeties. In a stressful situation, I like having to worry about only one thing....the trigger. But, I did ask a 1911 fan how he would investigate a "noise" in the house. He said he has the safety on with his thumb resting on it.

 

[Kleanbore]

I'd rather not have to deal with safeties. In a stressful situation, I like having to worry about only one thing....the trigger.

There's a lot to be said for that. But the 1911 trigger makes having a safety very prudent if not essential, and disengaging one is almost automatic.

For other pistols, my preference is a grip safety.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Imagine this scenario: You are asleep in your bed at O'Dark-30 when you hear a bump in the night. You are pretty sure it's a cat or a raccoon (otherwise you would call the police). As you grab your cocked and locked 1911 pistol and head out to investigate ...

• Is the thumb safety ON or OFF?
• Where is your thumb positioned?
• Why?

Granted, you should probably call the police. Granted you should only need the pistol for a few steps while you go for your 12 gage. But it's kind of the same question, since every shotgun I've ever seen was a cocked and locked single action.

For the record, my answer is: Thumb safety ON, with my thumb on the grip panel, firmly pushing UP on the thumb safety. Why? It's probably nothing so why wander around in the dark with a cocked and unlocked gun. Also, with my thumb in firm contact with the safety, I automatically know it's position and state of readiness. YMMV.

Long time ago in college I was sleeping an the car alarm to one of the other guys went off. I heard it, got my Colt Commander .45 (back then they only cost $125 new) and went outside. Sure it was cock-n-locked. I had tucked the gun in my shorts (bluejeans, not underwear) and had a t-shirt on over it.

Light shined on me and it turned out it was a cop shining the light from his car. I walked over and I told him I heard the alarm go off. He said to get the owner an have him shut it off.

Of course I didn't mention the 1911 Commander. All was well.

Deaf

 

[strambo]

Have the members advocating safety off on a 1911 after drawing, but pre-shooting decision, done any high-stress force on force training? LE have found over and over again that officers in FoF scenarios often put their fingers on the trigger early, they don't mean to and they typically don't realize they were doing it until the trainer points it out and/or replays the video. I have experienced this myself, felt like an idiot. It was weird, like my finger was being pulled into the trigger as if there was a tractor beam and I didn't want it to go there yet. The more you train under high stress, the better you perform and the more conscious control you develop over everything.

That is why a DA (or striker) gun or keeping the safety on is a good idea. Your finger under stress has a high probability of going to the trigger w/o you realizing it and before you have made the decision to fire.

 

[X-Rap]

Oh you've done it now, I've been on here for years and I don't think I've ever heard one of the 1911 carrying operators here ever fess up to that.

 

[Jeff White]

That is why a DA (or striker) gun or keeping the safety on is a good idea. Your finger under stress has a high probability of going to the trigger w/o you realizing it and before you have made the decision to fire.

When I draw, the safety comes off. If I don't shoot immediately the safety goes back on. I had a situation on an entry, I've posted about it here a couple times, where I had to step over the back of a couch after I forced the door open and stepped right on top of a suspect who was sleeping on the couch. He was half on and half off the couch and we were both tangled up. If the safety had been off on my AR there could have easily been an ND. Unlike on the square range, there are unplanned actions by the other side and unforeseen obstacles.in operations. If it has a safety, safety on till you intend to shoot.

 

[hdwhit]

hso wrote:
First -
You wait. You listen. You check your alarm panel across the bedroom mounted on the wall so you can see the indicator lights. You look at the dog to see what they're doing. You check if the spouse is in the room. THEN you may acquire a firearm and check if the kids are in their room (which are on the same floor and side of the house your bedroom is on). You wait and listen and if everyone's where they're supposed to be you take up a commanding position.

Amen.

And since the pistol I keep in the lockbox is a revolver, should I choose to get it, fumbling with the safety in a stressful situation won't be an issue.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

The way I was taught is that on a five step draw stroke, the safety came off on step two of five. Per the rest of the orig post, id keep it in low ready with my finger off the trite since I'm not on a target it's a good question. I took a number of Awerbuck classes and it took a lot of room clearing exercises for it to,really sink in.

 

[X-Rap]

I think Jeff has the right answer on this.
Nothing wrong with safety off on the draw, assess and safety back on if no threat immediately detected.
Much better than leaving it off.

 

[rskent]

Cocked and locked.
Thumb safety engaged.
Thumb positioned on top of safety, ready to disengage.
Trigger finger on side of frame, above trigger.

This.....I far as I know there is only one good way to handle a 1911, safety wise.

When you are at low ready the safety is on, your thumb is riding on top of it.

When you raise the gun to get a sight picture, the safety goes off and you are ready to fire.

When you lower your gun, the safety goes back on and your thumb goes back on top where it belongs.

If you are doing something else, you may want to reassess what you are doing or what you are carrying.

 

[jmorris]

I am about two years late to the thread but if I am going outside at night to kill something or just shooting it through an open door when others are asleep, I only use a rifle and unless it's the 572 with subs, it's a suppressed rifle.

I might not be allowed back in bed if I was running one of my 1911's after bed time and before one of the roosters starts in the morning.

That said I don't shoot cats around the house, armadillos tearing up irrigated yard and coyotes or coons around the chicken coop are not welcome though.