A different way to hold an auto pistol

Bulletski

Bulletski

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Joined
Jul 26, 2020
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Location
South Carolina
It never ceases to amaze me how many people hold and are taught to hold an auto pistol with the fingers of the support hand wrapped around the fingers of the gun hand.
When I took the CCP course some years ago, the instructor who had been in some kind of military Ranger unit showed us that the support hand was to be held flat and the gun hand to be placed on top of it.
He used the analogy of a baseball mit with the gun hand being the ball.

I've used this method since then and find it to be much better than the conventional way which doesn't really support the gun hand but just holds onto it. In his way, the support hand takes weight off of the gun hand, and to me is a lot more comfortable and practical.
Another practical aspect of his way is that it keeps the thumb of the support hand away from the slide. I see so many pictures using the "conventional" way where the thumb is sticking up next to the slide which can come in contact with the slide when the gun is fired resulting in "slide bite" which isn't fun.

Anyway, if anyone wants to chime in on this
 
I shoot any pistol, revolver or semi, better with the trigger guard supported by the pointy finger of my off hand. I basically use it as a rest and push a bit with my shooting/right hand and the balance of the shooting posture switches to my arms/shoulders. I find this the most stable for me and the sight picture doesn't bobble around.
 
Sounds like what youre describing is the "cup and saucer" grip. If it works for you, great, but there have been some advances since that was "the one" that do work better, once you figure them out. Especially with controlling the gun in rapid fire.

Ive tried and shot most of the different grip techniques, and just kept progressing along with them as they advanced and I learned them. I find the "thumbs forward" grip that's mostly advocated today, to work really well, and Ive had no issues with my thumbs near the slide (or cylinder). It does offer a more secure grip and better control of the gun, but it is different when you first try it, and feels a bit weird until you get used to it. Once you do, like most things youre in the process of learning, you dont even notice as you go on.

Grips and stances seem to elicit a lot of different feelings from people, but you really do benefit from trying/learning/exploring as many as you can, just so you have a better understanding of them and can then draw on that if and when it might be needed. You always learn "something" from each of them, if youre willing to learn.
 
This - and the various other flavors of the "teacup" hold - actually work fine for guns with little recoil, or for situations where rapidity of fire is inconsequential. For those situations where the gun needs to be quickly brought down from recoil in anticipation of the next shot, though, a firm two-handed grasp is very helpful.

I'd strongly question the credentials of a CCW instructor who insists on "teacupping" a defensive piece.
 
I didn't mean to imply that by using the "cup & saucer" hold that the support hand shouldn't
hold the gun hand firmly. I think it goes without saying that there's got to be a good hard grip on any pistol.
 
Try this maybe....
With your offhand make a loose fist and use your thumb to point at something. You can feel your wrist and elbow "lock".

Now open your loose fist and put your gun hand in it with the trigger guard against the offhand pointy finger.

I found this to work for me.
 
Folks dismiss the 'cup and saucer' hold, but I think that it is easy and intuitive for new shooters, and does almost all of what you want a two-hand grip to do (especially if the lower hand is firmly wrapping the upper). I always teach it to new handgunners, especially those who are still deciding between revolvers and autoloaders for their primary defense handgun. Let the low-drag folks use fancy grips, but for average shooters who don't go through 1500 rounds a week, it is a winner - no fancy grip to memorize, hand just finds other hand.
 
Bulletski said:
I didn't mean to imply that by using the "cup & saucer" hold that the support hand shouldn't
hold the gun hand firmly. I think it goes without saying that there's got to be a good hard grip on any pistol.
Click to expand...

You need a good, "firm" grip on the gun, no matter how you do it, but you also dont want to white knuckle it either. When shooting with two hands, a firm, solid, neutral, grip is what youre looking for.

The difference between the thumbs forward and most of the other grips is, with it, you have a 360° "meat on the gun" grip that locks the gun into your hands. There are no gaps, and the hands are pressed in full contact against the gun, all around, and the grip is more solid/secure. It gives you better control of the gun.

With the other types of grips, you normally dont get that and there tend to be gaps. Not saying you cant get a decent grip shooting different ways, and if the grip you use, works for you with the way you shoot, thats great. Do what works best. It all depends on what you want/need out of it.
 
trackskippy said:
........Grips and stances seem to elicit a lot of different feelings from people, but you really do benefit from trying/learning/exploring as many as you can, just so you have a better understanding of them and can then draw on that if and when it might be needed. You always learn "something" from each of them, if youre willing to learn.....
Click to expand...
Have been shooting a handgun (pistols and revolvers) for over 51 years and like @trackskippy says, there are different techniques for different problems. Just last week my new CCW instructor (for my CCW renewal) taught me a technique for thwarting a car jacking attempt when you are in the car.
Basically very close in shooting at right angles to your seated position.......what I got out of it besides a blister on the side of my trigger finger, was a target with well defined hits and the thought that I would probably be deaf after a real shooting......I know, I know, better deaf then dead.:oops::oops:
Lesson learned: Don't frequent places and times when you might get car jacked.:rofl: But if you must, have this technique in your inventory of skills.:cool:
 
As others have pointed out, the cup-and-saucer grip doesn't do anything to mitigate the effects of recoil. With a wraparound grip, your weak hand helps hold the gun down, making it easier to get it back on the target.
 
Bulletski said:
I didn't mean to imply that by using the "cup & saucer" hold that the support hand shouldn't
hold the gun hand firmly. I think it goes without saying that there's got to be a good hard grip on any pistol.
Click to expand...

I am confused. In re-reading your opening post, you have the support hand "held flat".

Regardless, even in the sort of "teacup" where the support hand attempts to grip the bottom of the gun or bottom of the strong hand, any significant recoil tends to jerk the gun up and away from the support hand. With the support hand wrapped around the strong hand instead, the two hands tend to stick together and support each other even during fairly significant recoil. Additionally, having the support hand wrapped around the grip allows the support hand to reduce the amount of muzzle "flip", which in turn helps bring the gun back down out of recoil more quickly and accurately.

There is a reason why every serious competitor in the various "run and gun" games uses essentially the same hold: nothing has yet been found superior, when speed and control are critical.
 
Try a bunch of different grips and find the ones that work best for you. Then narrow your practice down so you shoot the best and get good with them.

You should always have familiarity with more than one way to hold and shoot a handgun; one handed, two handed, wrong handed, left concealment, right concealment, etc. I was recently taught a slight change to my two handed grip that tilted my left hand forward just a bit and has me place pressure along the frame with my left thumb. This has reduced my low-left result of squeezing when shooting fast and brought my hits more straight up and down. You can always tweak or alter your grip like I did, so far I am very happy with the results.

I have never shot with the flat handed, teacup or a grip-the-wrist style either. For my shooting, I don’t see where it would give me any more versatility, better control or a faster recovery than the way I have been trained. YMMV, and for those who do cup-and-saucer it; if it helps you shoot better then more power to you. :thumbup:

Stay safe.
 
Agree with the above about cup-and-saucer being very very old, pre-modern style. It is an offshoot of single-handed dueling (what I always think of a fencing-style) stances. The extra hand gives support for heavy guns or long strings of fire, so got some love much longer mostly from handgun hunters and similar, after it was not permitted or preferred for target shooting. It isn't especially effective for combat shooting where you need positive pointing (changing from one target to the next) and recoil control and to my knowledge was never especially common for combat.

All proven effective combat holds are two hands on the gripframe, with varying beliefs held on pressure, position, etc. All are in the push-pull category; you don't just wrap your fingers over each other and hold it, but push with strong hand/arm, pull back with weak hand/arm. You don't wrap around fully so much as pull on the frontstrap. Usually.

John McPhee is one who absolutely teaches what others will call white knucking, push harder, grip harder, JUST below the level you shake from effort. It works if ardently pursued, but I provide this just as an example of how far this class of methods can be taken and how valid the whole range of these can be.
 
I would not use anything resembling a cup & saucer grip with an auto pistol. While I have not experienced it I have seen pictures of pistols that were shot after a squib load left a bullet lodged in the barrel. The magazine was forcibly ejected. While I would hope I would be aware enough not to let that happen, I don't think I would want my hand to be under the magazine well when it did.
I also believe a thumbs forward or thumb over thumb grip offers more control. Of course, everyone else should do what works best for them.
 
Wrapping the support hand around the gun hand with the thumb against the frame is how high level shooters are able to be so fast and accurate. The old school cup and saucer grip has evolved long ago. It may work fine for slow shooting but it will do nothing for speed and stability of the gun.
 
Bulletski said:
It never ceases to amaze me how many people hold and are taught to hold an auto pistol with the fingers of the support hand wrapped around the fingers of the gun hand.
When I took the CCP course some years ago, the instructor who had been in some kind of military Ranger unit showed us that the support hand was to be held flat and the gun hand to be placed on top of it.
He used the analogy of a baseball mit with the gun hand being the ball.

I've used this method since then and find it to be much better than the conventional way which doesn't really support the gun hand but just holds onto it. In his way, the support hand takes weight off of the gun hand, and to me is a lot more comfortable and practical.
Another practical aspect of his way is that it keeps the thumb of the support hand away from the slide. I see so many pictures using the "conventional" way where the thumb is sticking up next to the slide which can come in contact with the slide when the gun is fired resulting in "slide bite" which isn't fun.

Anyway, if anyone wants to chime in on this
Click to expand...
I don't know. I've seen thousands of shooters fire thousands of rounds in USPSA and I've never seen slide bite from a thumb next to the slide. The only time I've seen slide bite is somebody with the web of his hand getting in the way on a gun that's too small for him.

The two hand push-pull with a Weaver stance is probably the strongest, most stable grip for controlling recoil. Kinda like sling supported with a rifle.

The point of a two handed grip isn't that the gun is heavy and you need an extra hand to hold it up. It's about a structure that's stable, and work against recoil.

If you're doing slow fire at a range and you're accurate with a teacup/saucer grip, then continue doing it. But there's a reason the more common grip is more common. It works for most people in most situations.
 
This is the way I was taught at Illinois Police Training Institute in the 1990s, and it worked for me. It still works for me, likely due to decades of practice with this method. Left hand wrapped around right (trigger hand), thumbs froward with index finger of left hand wrapped around front of trigger guard. All municipal and county LEOs were trained this way back then, as were the Illinois State Police. And every gun maker and their mothers introduced pistols with squared and serrated trigger guards to wrap that finger around.

Granted, the type and size of handgun you have these days will dictate what works best for you. I still have my 1990s S&W 915 duty weapon as my main squeeze. The front of the trigger guard is not squared like the S&W 5904, but it does have vertical grooves on the front of the trigger guard so your support index finger won't tend to slip off.

Index.jpg.jpg
 
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