A few questions about AR-15's

[Roger Williams]

I posted this in another thread, but wanted to make it a separate thread to gather more opinions/help, etc.

Ok, here's a couple of questions for you AR guys....

I was at a gun show yesterday and saw a bunch of Rock River complete uppers for $400. The guy at the table said they were all head spaced and test fired. (that's a good thing, right?)... A table right across from them had 3 different kinds of complete lowers for $239. (Armalite, DPMS, Rock River)

Here's my questions: If I got an upper and a lower and put them together, would it be as good as if I bought a complete factory assembled gun? If a factory assembled complete gun would be better, why? Also, should I try to stick with the same manufacturer for the upper and lower?

I have heard tales of guys putting together a "frankenrifle", and having a lot of "play" between the upper and lower. I really don't want to pay almost $700 for a rifle that rattles like crazy. I asked the guy selling the lowers about that, and he told me that none of the lowers he sold will be like that, and said "in fact, they're so tight, you'll have to pound on the pins to get 'em in there"... I think I'm leaning toward getting a complete Rock River Arms Lower and complete Rock River Arms upper and putting them together. Will it turn out just as good as a factory assembled complete rifle?

Thanks!

 

[ny32182]

If the lower and the upper were actually assembled by Rock River, you shouldn't have a problem.

If the guy at the table assembled them, who knows what you are getting, especially with the upper.

RR assembled uppers are certainly headspaced and probably test fired at the factory.

The only real disadvantage of buying properly assembled uppers and lowers seperately, and sticking them together, is that you don't get the factory warranty on the complete rifle. Other than that, everything should be fine as long as the guy is selling exactly what he is advertizing.

 

[N3rday]

Well, all I know is RRA has a lifetime warranty on all their parts...so if he bought the complete upper than you are good to go. On the internet, they sell for about $375-$395, depending on what you want. Only problem I see with RRA is that they don't offer chrome-lined barrels, only chrome moly. Oh well, can't have it all. Besides that, I think RRA parts are an excellent deal.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

If I got an upper and a lower and put them together, would it be as good as if I bought a complete factory assembled gun? If a factory assembled complete gun would be better, why?

It will depend a lot on who assembled it. A factory assembled upper and lower will be no different from a gun purchased from the same factory (except you won't pay the increased tax on a complete firearm, so cost will be less).

However, if the upper has been assembled by random gun show guy, then you are taking your chances. It is much more difficult to muck up the assembly on a lower receiver; but two popular ways to do it are to stone the trigger so that it wears through the very thin hardening and to not install the hammer spring correctly so that the pins walk out. Both of those are simple enough to correct, even for the novice though.

Another problem is that ARs are very modular and there are a lot of unmarked parts in a rifle where you can cut costs to the detriment of the consumer. I can buy a Rock River lower receiver and Rock River upper receiver and then build the rest of the gun with the cheapest parts I can find. Now I've got a "name brand" AR that is cheap and that will be very difficult to tell from the factory version.

I like to buy the lower from a local FFL (since it is considered the "gun" part and is fairly easy to work on) and then either order the upper receiver direct from the manufacturer or order it from a business I trust.

Also, should I try to stick with the same manufacturer for the upper and lower?

Mixing and matching parts will affect resale value; but as long as the parts are of good quality, they don't really have any effect on function.

I have heard tales of guys putting together a "frankenrifle", and having a lot of "play" between the upper and lower. I really don't want to pay almost $700 for a rifle that rattles like crazy.

My experience mirrors that of the gun show guy, most new uppers tend towards too tight rather than too loose. In the event you get more play than you like and it bugs you, there are any number of fixes in the $5-18 range that will address the issue - though personally I haven't ever found it to affect function at all.

 

[Onslaught]

You are on the right path my son....

But let me make a suggestion.

Buy the complete lower through your FFL dealer. You could order one online from a reputable dealer and have it sent there.

Then, buy the complete upper from www.adcofirearms.com for less than $400 and have it shipped straight to your door. That way you know you're getting a good RRA quality upper and nobody's ripping you off.

ADCO also offers some options on RRA that most don't, like chrome lined barrels, barrel "profiling"(that is, turning the HBAR to a smaller diameter like A2, M4, or SPR), etc.

I just looked at ADCO's site, and they have complete lowers (minus buttstock) for $172.22. You can certainly get a buttstock for less than $60, and this way you could choose the stock yourself. For instance, an A1 buttstock rather than the A2, fixed telescoping, (or real telescoping and don't assemble it until after September 14th).

While I'm at it, may I also suggest you take a look at the "Mid-length" uppers that RRA sells. I like them so much for the extra handguard length, extra sight radius, and slightly softer recoil that I replaced my Bushmaster barrel with a 16" chrome lined mid-length from ADCO turned to A2 profile under the HG's. VERY nice.

 

[fix]

RRA has chrome lined barrels available as an option. Call and ask.

 

[Steve Smith]

Pound the pins in, huh? I don't like the sound of that.

I've had a few that were really tight and I did have to use a screwdriver to persuade the pins to seat. Guess what? After a year's worth of hard use, the upper and lower are loose. Something stretched. Had to. Of course, I put a hell of a lot of stress on a gun, and some additional weight in the front and rear don't help, but I know my sling use is probably close to 40 lbs worth of stress on those joints. A loose AR doesn't worry me. I just JB weld it up.

 

[Denny Hansen]

The "they have all been headspaced" comment would make me a little leary of this vendor, as on the surface it sounds like he's trying to make something simple sound like something magical. AR barrels are not screwed in like a bolt gun or many other semi-autos. The breech end of the barrel fits into the upper receiver with a key-way lug and is then torqued and secured by the barrel nut/delta ring assembly. It is either headspaced by this fitting or it's not. This is the one man reason it is easy to switch uppers on AR family rifles.

While some headspacing problems can be fixed by a good gunsmith with a lathe, it's normally easier and cheaper to just get a new barrel/complete upper. For the most part, unless the guy is an accomplished machinest (and the average gun show vendor is not), if someone tells you they will "headspace" your AR, chances are they are selling you a lot more than an upper receiver.

Denny

 

[Onslaught]

Guess what? After a year's worth of hard use, the upper and lower are loose. Something stretched.

Same here... I fell for the hype of the "AccuWedge" even though my all factory Bushmaster was pretty tight. Now, it's a sloppy, wiggly mess without the accuwedge.

 

[dbshabo]

I agree with Onslaught, go thru ADCO. Steve is very helpful and will match anyone else's price, from my experience anyway. $4 shipping can't be beat either.

Shabo

 

[eddailey]

Did the “complete†uppers include the bolt and bolt carrier? If not, expect to pay $100-$150 for those items.

Ed

 

[wanderinwalker]

I have heard tales of guys putting together a "frankenrifle", and having a lot of "play" between the upper and lower. I really don't want to pay almost $700 for a rifle that rattles like crazy. I asked the guy selling the lowers about that, and he told me that none of the lowers he sold will be like that, and said "in fact, they're so tight, you'll have to pound on the pins to get 'em in there"... I think I'm leaning toward getting a complete Rock River Arms Lower and complete Rock River Arms upper and putting them together. Will it turn out just as good as a factory assembled complete rifle?

Well, good and bad news. Good news, AR-15s shoot great almost regardless of manufacture. As long as the pins are sized properly (no funky Colt big pins and such) uppers and lowers go together fine. Bad news, AR-15s will have reciever slop. It means nothing really. My match Armalite wobbles and wiggles and shoots MOA or less on a good day. Why worry?

Uppers and lowers are pretty interchangeable as long as said pin match is followed (or corrected for). My dad has a '70s-vintage Colt Sporter with a DPMS upper on it for Highpower matches. Works fine. The DPMS upper also works fine on my Armalite lower, and my Armalite upper works fine on the Colt lower. Confused yet? And no, I don't know if the Colt upper works on the Armalite lower, for that is illegal.

(Oh yeah, mating the Armalite and DPMS uppers to the Colt lower requires a special pin. But the DPMS and Armalite uppers switch on and off of the Armalite lower with just a push of a pin.)

 

[Roger Williams]

Just to clarify a few things I left out....

The uppers did come with the bolt and charging handle. The guy at the booth said they came direct from RRA, assembled, headspaced and test fired at the RRA factory.

The guy with the lowers said they came assembled from RRA. But... people SAY a lot of things. He just happened to sell stripped RRA lowers and parts kits too. I don't know either of the guys from Adam.

So, it's a good idea to trust the people I buy from so I don't get a RRA shell full of crap parts? Can anyone make any suggestions for dealers they trust? So far there's ADCO and RRA. Moderators, if this is not the right place to ask for this type of suggestions, please let me know and I'll post it in a different area.

Thanks for all the help guys, I really appreciate it... and I know I will wind up with a rifle I can be proud of.

Whoops, one other question I forgot to ask: if I get a flattop with a front sight, will I have to get a special scope mount so I don't see the front sight when I look through the scope? Or, should I go with a weaver gas block and a flip up front sight?

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The guy at the booth said they came direct from RRA, assembled, headspaced and test fired at the RRA factory.

See Denny Hansen's comments in your other thread. Pretty much any new AR from a reputable manufacturer will be headspaced because of the way the gun is designed. Even your backyard gunsmith can't really screw up that one. The only time I've seen headspace issues on an AR is from parts that were badly worn or completely out-of-spec.

if I get a flattop with a front sight, will I have to get a special scope mount so I don't see the front sight when I look through the scope? Or, should I go with a weaver gas block and a flip up front sight?

Depends on the distance to front sight post and type of optic. Any scope over 4x will work on pretty much any AR because the front sight post is inside the focal length of the scope. It will show up as maybe a faint grey shadow at worst. Probably, it will not be visible at all. At lower powers, the sight tower will be more visible (maybe a dark grey blur). At 1x, the front sight tower will be clearly visible of course.

Unless you plan to go with a low or no magnification optic, the front sight tower wil not be an issue. If you do go with a no-magnification optic the front sight tower will block some of the field of view; but it will also allow you to use the front sights without removing the optic (called co-witnessing). Some people like this for the immediate backup it provides to a battery powered optic. Others prefer the extra uncluttered field of view a fold-down front sight provides.

At low-magnification (1.5-2x) you won't be able to see the sights; but they might blur enough of the bottom part of the scope that it bugs you.

 

[DMK]

The only real disadvantage of buying properly assembled uppers and lowers seperately, and sticking them together, is that you don't get the factory warranty on the complete rifle.

That's not always true. Rock River has the same lifetime warrantee on their upper and lower halves as they do on complete rifles. They'd likely cover individual parts as well, but obviously you'd have to disassemble and replace them.

http://www.rockriverarms.com

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

uppers and lowers coming from rock river?

If you buy them seperately you may have to work on them to get the upper to fit on the lower as they may be to tight.

At the factory they have al;ot of them to match together so its not a major concern for them.

Most of the fitting comes into play with the rear lug being to tight. easy fix.

AS far as worring about slop between the upper and lower If its really bothering me I will just tear a simple paster in half and put one half piece on each side of the lower and snap it back together. Nice and tight now.

Usually do not mess with it but have done it once in awhile just for kicks.