A few words re: cryo stress relief

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Gosh "Hoover" it!


(It just doesn't sound right)

Yes we have the water, but after 49.67" of rain at my house last year I will gladly trade you some oil for the water. To bad we cannot arrange that one.

Keep in touch and hope all is well out your way.
 
I didn't understand half of what I just read but I am impressed with the knowledge of the posters. Makes me feel like a dork though!:banghead:
 
hmm. This has been interesting in a bleeding out the ears sort of way...

I don't know a lot of the particulars involved in making a rifle barrel, but I make knives and do my own heat treating, and have read a fair bit on it.
Maybe it will help some people if I lay out the very simple process that goes into heat treating one of my knives.

I start off with annealed precision ground steel. It is garuanteed within a certain tolerance for uniform thickness, but due to handling and stuff its never quite straight. Basically it has been bent, and due to it bein soft, it has taken a set bend (some stress build up, more importantly this is the shape it wants to stay in, like a warped peice of wood)
I do all the cutting grinding and machining, and by the time the blade is ready for HT, it looks completely straight. The grain/crystal structure still remembers the previous bend though, I just cut and ground stuff off till it was flat. So before the actual hardening process, I normalize the steel. This is simply heating it to critical temp (it becomes non magnetic, for the O1 I use this is around 1440 deg) and then cooling it off very slowly. By doing this you excite the atoms (or even molecules if you feel better calling it that ;) ) They start moving an slidin around past each other, if you heat it too much they can move so freely that it becomes liquid. So now you've got the little guys movin around some, and you cool the stuff down slowly, they gradually relax into a more fixed state. And they settle there with the peice in its present form. No more stress, the crystal structure is aligned with the present shape.

Now its time to actually harden the steel. Pretty simple, heat it to critical temp and quench in oil. This was explained pretty well earlier in the thread. Austenite into Martensite, carbide matrix etc. All that complicated stuff. Now the steel is much too hard to to be used for anything, its very brittle.
So its time to temper (heat at 400 deg F for 2 hours, let cool slowly, repeat). This releives stress and it brings the steel into a useable range of hardness. Basically you have the same thing going on as the the normalizing process from earlier only on a smaller scale though.

Now for the cryo. I don't do this to my knives, but had it done on a few that were professionally heat treated (I can't do stainless, takes too much heat and too complicated) The cryo treatment is supposed to complete the transition from austenite(not good) to martensite (good) Some very accomplished bladesmiths I have talked to, seem to be of the opinion that if the heat treat is done properly to begin with, there is no need for the cryo. That makes sense. Basically the cryo is insurance.

I hadn't ever heard much of cryo being used as stress relief, but that makes sense. The same basic concept I talked about for normalizing takes place. Your dealing with a sort of phase change. Only you don't actually go far enough to get the change. Think of water, when its warm its in a liquid (disordered) state. When its cold its a solid (more ordered) state. So your using the extremely low temp of the liquid nitrogen to bring the steel into the most ordered state possible.

Is it needed for a gun barrel? I'd say yes and no. Its like insurance. If everything was done properly, the barrel should be fine without it. If there was a problem somewhere, it could possibly solve them.

Anyone else vote this for the most boring thread in the short history of THR? All I really care about is does it work? Beyond that I would like to chalk everything up as "01magic":neener:
 
redneck, what's boring to one guy might not be so to another. And, if something's boring, it's easy enough to not read it. :)

Thing is, questions come up from time to time about all manner of stuff. It's helpful to know *why* something happens or does not happen--rather than to merely know that "ya turn the key and the car starts."

Art
 
Redneck , retained austenite is not a problem with O1. As far as stress relief - when you are stressed out do you jump into a tub of ice water or into a HOT tub ?
 
Mainly joking about this being boring. These discussions come up all the time on bladeforums and can go way beyond what anyone on the forum really understands, except for the 2 chemists and 1 metalurgist in the group ;)

Mete
I know that retained austenite is not a problem with O1, that is why I don't cryo treat my O1 blades. I had it done on a few ATS34 blades that I had professionally done. Mainly because it only cost $4, and I wanted to see if it worked. (the knives cut very well, and hold it very well, better than production knives in the same steel. Was it cryo or just the small batch HT? Couldn't tell ya.

As far as me jumping into a cold tub, thats not a very good analogy.
The idea of tempering and normalizing is that you get the atoms moving, and relax them into a matrix that is stable and stress free. An example is using leaf springs off a truck to make knives. A big leaf spring can be cut into a small enough section that it seem straight. The bend is still there in the grain structure though. If you don't normalize the steel, alllowing the grain to realign itself, it will most definitely end up in a warped knife.

Now the cryo treating simply continues the process of stress relief. Some stress builds up after heat treat because you have a very rapid change in crystal structure. It would be best if you could normalize again, but that leaves you back at square one with a soft peice of steel. You can heat to a limited temperature though, and still come out with the desired hardness. This gets the atoms moving a little and relieves stress as they relax back into a more fixed position as the steel cools. The idea behind cryo is that if you can't work on the grain structure to the same magnitude by heating it because you get it to soft, so you prolong the cooling process by taking it way below room temperature. The atoms relax into a more and more ordered state as the temperature drops. So you keep dropping the temperature as long as possible. When you bring the steel back up to room temperature, they're in a slightly less ordered state, but the stress has been releived.
Like I said before, on a gun barrel I don't think its anything more than insurance. Its likely that if there was a problem with some part of the process, it could make a difference. But if everything is done properly from start to finish its probably doesn't matter.
 
I assume that you have not read all my posts in this forum ( here and in the gunsmithing section under barrel fluting) where I have explained at some length why cryo does NOT relieve stress . It seems that I am the only metallurgist in this forum but many would rather believe advertising hype.
 
Mete, if you are an expert, there is always another expert that will DISAGREE with you. I'm not an expert and I disagree. While that doesn't hold much weight, the intellectual discussion revolving around it is at least enlightening to many of us non-experts out there.

Is it POSSIBLE that cryogenic treatment will relieve stress?
 
Actuallly in this thread you haven't done much more than tell everyone that your a metallurgist. On the first page, you did explain why steel doesn't have molecules, but thats basically a matter of terminology and for the idea in question it doesn't really matter if you call them molecules atoms or crystals. Everyone knows that we're talking about the basic building blocks of the material.
On the second page you explained why a barrel should be normalized. I pretty much explained that also, and agree with you.
You have not explaned anything about the actual cryo process besides telling us over and over that we are wrong. So, since you are a metallurgist, why don't you explain why cryo treatment doesn't relieve stress, or just exactly what it does.

I know that the austenite to martensite conversion is a non issue with the steels typically used in a gun barrel. And at the hardness level a barrel is usually at, you should be able to get adequate stress relief through normalizing and tempering, since you can use a much higher temperature for the tempering.

However you seem to be disagreeing that by lowering the temperature/energy of a material you bring the atoms into a more ordered state. Even though you say that by getting the atoms moving (via heating) and then slowly cooling will relieve stress. You seem to be contradicting yourself here.

I don't know what advertising hype your talking about either. I got all my info from articles on heat treating and from a few chemistry classes for engineers. No I'm not an expert. But since you claim to be, why don't you explain it?
 
Redneck , I have been trying to explain the basics because without understanding that you can't go farther. That metals don't have molecules is a MAJOR point. My words are not casual. Tempering is done between 300 and 1100F, stress relief is typically 900 to 1250 , normalizing is above that ( above the transition temperature).Cooling slowly ( to room temperature ,maybe I didn't make this point clear ) ,after stress relief avoids adding stresses from the cooling itself , very important when dealing with complex shapes. Again the basics , to relieve stress atoms MUST MOVE. The ability of atoms to move is proportional to temperature , therefore you heat to stress relieve.When typical stress relief treatment call for 900F thats because it takes that temperature to get significant atomic movement to relieve stress. By the way as far as retained austenite , typical barrel steel of 4140, transformation to martensite is complete at 425F.
 
Told Ya So

See, I told ya, did anybody listen? Noooooooooooo:banghead:
This argument, complete with charts & graphs and "8 x 10 color glossy photographs" has gone on in professional and metalworking trade journals for years. Each side is well armed with credentials and opinions.
I think the debate over the benefits of cryo-ing a barrel will only be solved after we settle on the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin.
There has been some excellent and authoritative information presented in this discussion without anyone being seriously injured.
If it's your barrel and you want the treatment, do it. If it helps, great. If it doesn't, it's not the end of the world.
Great thread, dudes.:evil:
 
Charlie, why did you refer to cryo as "the new kid on the block", it's been around for 40 + years ?
 
see the problem for the pure science dood is that they fail to believe that
when a barrel is super cooled in nitrogen, the little wee folk are better able to bless the steel

;)

heres what Gale had to say:

It seems that every time I finish a chapter in my book someone makes a post on my material.. I just finished this subject yesterday. I tried a controlled test in 1984 on cryo treated barrels. It was on S/S match Bench Rest barrels and it was for accuracy only. Results were negative. It did not help. A couple of years ago Lazzeroni did a comprehensive accuracy and wear test. The conclusion was accuracy negative but some improvement to wear. Before he did a release on the study he did the complete study again. This time the results were the exact opposite as the first test and the control barrel lasted longer. Conclusion Save your money!!!
 
"New kid on the block"

Mete:
Considering all of the other heat treatments (starting with charring the tip of a sharpened stick to make it a better hunting instrument for our cave-dwelling, mamoth-slaying ancestors, or running a red hot sword blade through a slave for quenching), the 40 year track record of cryo treatments makes it sort of the new kid on the thermal processing block.
However, if you include processes like H-I-P, then it's not the newest kid, but it's still no veteran. As this thread has shown, the beneficial application of cryo certainly isn't as well understood.
Oh, and the running-the-slave-through style of quenching has generally been abandoned, thanks to OSHA.:cool:
 
Again the basics , to relieve stress atoms MUST MOVE. The ability of atoms to move is proportional to temperature , therefore you heat to stress relieve.When typical stress relief treatment call for 900F thats because it takes that temperature to get significant atomic movement to relieve stress.

Atoms do have to move to relieve stress. Perhaps you are overlooking the fact that all atoms move all the time with the possible exception of atoms at absolute zero. Now, when you freeze something to, say, 300 degrees below zero, the mass of the object is significantly lowered. When mass is lowered, atoms and grains are forced to allign with their smaller structure.

Here's the laymans concept I have. Let's say you have a box of "Lego Brand Blocks." Toss these blocks into a box so that they overflow. They are very stressed in this condition. If you kick the box, legos will move and change position. If you shake the box for a few minutes, the legos will settle down and be more stable the next time you kick the box and therefore won't move much. If you take a 2x4 and smack the legos down in the box repeatedly, they will be MORE stable and take up less room. This is what cryo does, if I can make that logical leap, it is the 2x4 that uses compression of mass to make a more stable structure.

Assuming there were stresses to begin with, this shrinkinging will "SQUISH" the atoms into a more dense structure breaking loose any internal stresses. When you then heat it up again, you are heating the matter at least 350 degrees or so and the object will grow perhaps one or two percent in mass. It therefore must have less stress. This makes sense to me, but I'm not an expert.
 
Badger,

That makes sense only if you remove the word "mass" in the first paragraph and substitute "volume". Nothing in this universe changes mass due to temperature.
 
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