Just gimme three steps, gimme three steps mister, give me three steps towards the door.
Just gimme three steps, gimme three steps mister, and you'll never see a me no more...
A gun is pointed at you. What next?
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Just gimme three steps, gimme three steps mister, give me three steps towards the door.
Just gimme three steps, gimme three steps mister, and you'll never see a me no more...
In all seriousness, if you find that your situational awareness has failed you to the point that a person suddenly appears pointing a gun at your face... your options are not good.
I wouldn't even try going for my gun. I'm pretty quick but I can't clear concealment, draw, and fire from the hip in under a second. Human response time is 0.2 sec give or take, which gives them at least 0.8 seconds to decide where they want to put the bullet in to you. (Or, enough time for them to fire 3-4 shots).
IF they are close enough, and IF you take the initiative, you can try to get out of the way of the muzzle and attack the person; particularly focusing on the weapon. (The weapon is the more immediate problem, the person just an inconvenience). Damage the living snot out of that strongside arm any way you can (while contesting the gun and keeping the muzzle away from you). If you are grappling the person, a firm grip on the gun itself can reduce the chance of a second shot for either semi or revolver by interrupting the slide or cylinder rotation; although you can't count on it.
There's various and sundry disarm techniques in various forms of martial arts, but it takes a LOT of training and practice to get them down to the point you aren't consistently getting shot trying to pull them off...
Chances are, you'll still get shot, but if you are going to get shot anyway...
If you can keep the weapon at bay (not pointed at you) and have a free hand, stick a thumb or finger or (if you happen to be holding them) a key in / at their eye. Person can't shoot what they can't see .. and human reflex is INTENSE on eye threats - the vast majority of people can't control the reaction to drop whatever they are holding and grab / cover their face on a serious threat.
A back up plan is always a good idea, knife or set of keys, etc. Where I live we don't have to keep knives concealed, but guns, we do; meaning, it's faster by about a half second for me to bring a knife in to play, than it is my gun. (I'd also much rather have a 3" knife, fighting at contact distance, than a gun. Grabbing a gun to contest it generally doesn't hurt, grabbing a sharp knife? That's a whole 'nother animal...)
If there's some distance between you and the aggressor, and going on the offensive doesn't seem like a good idea, running away is always a good option. (Not *directly* away...of course)
I wouldn't even try going for my gun. I'm pretty quick but I can't clear concealment, draw, and fire from the hip in under a second. Human response time is 0.2 sec give or take, which gives them at least 0.8 seconds to decide where they want to put the bullet in to you. (Or, enough time for them to fire 3-4 shots).
IF they are close enough, and IF you take the initiative, you can try to get out of the way of the muzzle and attack the person; particularly focusing on the weapon. (The weapon is the more immediate problem, the person just an inconvenience). Damage the living snot out of that strongside arm any way you can (while contesting the gun and keeping the muzzle away from you). If you are grappling the person, a firm grip on the gun itself can reduce the chance of a second shot for either semi or revolver by interrupting the slide or cylinder rotation; although you can't count on it.
There's various and sundry disarm techniques in various forms of martial arts, but it takes a LOT of training and practice to get them down to the point you aren't consistently getting shot trying to pull them off...
Chances are, you'll still get shot, but if you are going to get shot anyway...
If you can keep the weapon at bay (not pointed at you) and have a free hand, stick a thumb or finger or (if you happen to be holding them) a key in / at their eye. Person can't shoot what they can't see .. and human reflex is INTENSE on eye threats - the vast majority of people can't control the reaction to drop whatever they are holding and grab / cover their face on a serious threat.
A back up plan is always a good idea, knife or set of keys, etc. Where I live we don't have to keep knives concealed, but guns, we do; meaning, it's faster by about a half second for me to bring a knife in to play, than it is my gun. (I'd also much rather have a 3" knife, fighting at contact distance, than a gun. Grabbing a gun to contest it generally doesn't hurt, grabbing a sharp knife? That's a whole 'nother animal...)
If there's some distance between you and the aggressor, and going on the offensive doesn't seem like a good idea, running away is always a good option. (Not *directly* away...of course)
Tactical Lever
Member
That is an extremely questionable tactic. Anytime you exert force, by being caught off guard, your muscles will tense, and both hands will tighten to grab or strike. By pushing back on the gun but not changing the axis, the gun will remain on target, you will possibly break your hand rendering one your weapons useless, and the assailant will squeeze the trigger reflexively as his hand is pushed back, shooting you.
You will not jam a revolver, and even if you jam your knuckle into the front sight just right and move the slide, it is not likely to cause a jam.
herrwalther
Member
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Did not think dreams were a viable way to start a strategy discussion on THR. In that case I'm Chuck Norris/Bruce Lee hybrid. Except younger and better looking.
Tactical Lever
Member
I could not imagine how this could be anyone's preferred method of disarmament. Some of the methods taught are by people who should stick to belts that keep their pants up. Or instructors who are basing their techniques on methods that pre-date guns.
Push to the outside, and you are pushing into their hand, and toward the strength of the arm. Since you are exerting considerable force and pushing into their hand, a strong person will at first somewhat resist, and possibly get a shot off, or simply yank backwards, pulling the gun out of your hand (and they have a good grip) and maybe shooting you at the same time. During this, you will be off balance, at a disadvantage for gripping strength, and using your muscles to pull it toward your own midsection.
Another option for the bad guy, is to strike with their other hand. As you are pushing to the outside, and tying up both of your hands, the attacker has a free hand and an open posture to throw it from. Likely, it will leave your temple, side of the neck, and jaw as open targets to be struck as many times as it takes for you to let go, or go unconscious.
If grabbing the gun or gun hand, is really the best option (out of a really crummy list), you would be better served forcing the gun toward the inside to break the grip. The grip is weaker, it will be pointing the "right way" when the grip breaks, and you are crossing him up, blocking (somewhat) the chance of a counter strike.
For sure, move a step to the left (for an orthodox shooter) while making a move.
You can tie up a semi auto gun by grabbing the slide, push it to the side and down, and the round in the chamber will hopefully be fired, and hopefully not in your legs. This will give you a couple seconds (hopefully) to move, shoot, slash, grapple or strike while the baddie figures out that he has to rack the slide to get another one ready. Similar deal with a revolver, but tougher, and more dangerous.
Tactical Lever
Member
As always, use what works, (and prove it!), throw the rest out. Keep sharp and practiced. Have another plan, and don't be surprised if that doesn't turn out so hot either.
Forget fancy. No double spinning come around from behind, and concentrate the pinky toe on the top secret pressure point the size of a dime....
You will not get a chance to hit a little button to disable the gun. You have to move a meter and have impeccable speed and accuracy. He has to have a 1/4 of a normal brain and an itch in an awkward spot.
Forget fancy. No double spinning come around from behind, and concentrate the pinky toe on the top secret pressure point the size of a dime....
You will not get a chance to hit a little button to disable the gun. You have to move a meter and have impeccable speed and accuracy. He has to have a 1/4 of a normal brain and an itch in an awkward spot.
leadcounsel
member
I wanted to add another few options from my Judo days.
Here are a few easy-to-learn Judo moves that will likely give you a tactical advantage. To use Judo moves, you do need some training and learning how to fall without hurting yourself.
A one armed shoulder throw will be quite effective and you can roll up on top of the attacker, and disarm him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBhzNk6u0Z4
I always loved a good hip throw, and they are deadly fast and simple. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLM6C9ICQo8
Step inside the gun hand, grab the attacker's gun arm and one hand around the neck, shirt collar, etc. as you rotate, your body, pull him over your hip and slam him into the ground, go for the gun, and follow through with face/throat strikes until the threat is over.
An Osoto Gari throw would work too. In this throw or a modified version, you either step inside or outside the gun hand, step past their hip, kick their leg forward as you fall on top of them and drive them onto their back... of course keeping yourself inside the gun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcA45dsJh2w
And there are these options, some of which I mentioned in my two posts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNNUHeU6CKc
Here are a few easy-to-learn Judo moves that will likely give you a tactical advantage. To use Judo moves, you do need some training and learning how to fall without hurting yourself.
A one armed shoulder throw will be quite effective and you can roll up on top of the attacker, and disarm him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBhzNk6u0Z4
I always loved a good hip throw, and they are deadly fast and simple. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLM6C9ICQo8
Step inside the gun hand, grab the attacker's gun arm and one hand around the neck, shirt collar, etc. as you rotate, your body, pull him over your hip and slam him into the ground, go for the gun, and follow through with face/throat strikes until the threat is over.
An Osoto Gari throw would work too. In this throw or a modified version, you either step inside or outside the gun hand, step past their hip, kick their leg forward as you fall on top of them and drive them onto their back... of course keeping yourself inside the gun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcA45dsJh2w
And there are these options, some of which I mentioned in my two posts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNNUHeU6CKc
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Vodoun da Vinci
Member
I'm of the opinion and training that if someone points a gun at me, they mean to kill me or at least have that ability. How long one waits to act/react depends on *so* many factors like distance and timing and intangible things that will only become apparent in the actual event.
I do know that we will react according to out training and mindset/skills. One person is unlikely to "invent" a successful intervention on the spot via ad lib if one has never trained or worked it out before hand many, many times. If I were untrained or only a bulls eye style shooter who had "thought" about this kind of thing?
I'd still move relatively soon after the onset and I'd move big, fast, and laterally. Running is always a good option as statistics show that folks who run are rarely shot at or pursued, if shot at are rarely hit, and if hit are rarely hit bad enough to die or be crippled of it. Running/moving are at the very top of my list. If you have the mindset, training and opportunity to counter with authority so much the better.
But as one of my trainers used to ask us: "If you are crossing the street and a car comes careening around the corner at high speed headed right at you and will certainly crush you in a matter of seconds what do you do?"
"Do you strike a ready stance and think about what to do?" "No!" "You *MOVE* and you move perpendicular to the direction of travel...you move fast, soon, and you move big!"
In this case moving out of the path of the bullet is substituted for the direction of the cars trajectory. But I'd move very quickly and very soon. If I was with people I had to protect? I'd counter attack instantly and tie the attacker up with a quick strike to push the gun off target and possibly an attack to face, groin, knee, or other vital area while drawing and shooting him to the ground. The only shooting I ever witnessed was at arms length and about 10 feet from me and things happen so fast that it is unbelievable. This is the kind of thing people need to train for. While I was not the one being attacked I realized afterwards that if I had been I'd likely have been seriously injured...it was many years ago and became the reason I started training because I froze staring like a dope or a sheep disbelieving what I saw happening.
VooDoo
I do know that we will react according to out training and mindset/skills. One person is unlikely to "invent" a successful intervention on the spot via ad lib if one has never trained or worked it out before hand many, many times. If I were untrained or only a bulls eye style shooter who had "thought" about this kind of thing?
I'd still move relatively soon after the onset and I'd move big, fast, and laterally. Running is always a good option as statistics show that folks who run are rarely shot at or pursued, if shot at are rarely hit, and if hit are rarely hit bad enough to die or be crippled of it. Running/moving are at the very top of my list. If you have the mindset, training and opportunity to counter with authority so much the better.
But as one of my trainers used to ask us: "If you are crossing the street and a car comes careening around the corner at high speed headed right at you and will certainly crush you in a matter of seconds what do you do?"
"Do you strike a ready stance and think about what to do?" "No!" "You *MOVE* and you move perpendicular to the direction of travel...you move fast, soon, and you move big!"
In this case moving out of the path of the bullet is substituted for the direction of the cars trajectory. But I'd move very quickly and very soon. If I was with people I had to protect? I'd counter attack instantly and tie the attacker up with a quick strike to push the gun off target and possibly an attack to face, groin, knee, or other vital area while drawing and shooting him to the ground. The only shooting I ever witnessed was at arms length and about 10 feet from me and things happen so fast that it is unbelievable. This is the kind of thing people need to train for. While I was not the one being attacked I realized afterwards that if I had been I'd likely have been seriously injured...it was many years ago and became the reason I started training because I froze staring like a dope or a sheep disbelieving what I saw happening.
VooDoo
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blarby
Member
Since it was a dream, next time chuck in a few frags, and laugh.
In reality, I'm assuming they approached you on the left side, and you turned left to look in ?
Immediately dive left, in the direction of the rear of the van.
Bout the fastest thing you can do to reduce the scope of the firing arc, and get you out of line of effect of as many shooters as possible. might give you time to draw from a strong side right carry, if so equipped.
In reality, I'm assuming they approached you on the left side, and you turned left to look in ?
Immediately dive left, in the direction of the rear of the van.
Bout the fastest thing you can do to reduce the scope of the firing arc, and get you out of line of effect of as many shooters as possible. might give you time to draw from a strong side right carry, if so equipped.
Deltaboy1984
Member
Move draw and fire then move some more.
stonecutter2
Member
This seems like a losing proposition, because it is. If someone has a gun pointed at your face, you have lost. They have control over the situation, and that is that.
Unless you are an *exceptionally* well trained individual, in which the odds improve in your favor - you're still fighting an uphill battle that you will ilkely lose.
Your absolute best bet is not to try "negotiating" but rather comply. And hope they don't just shoot...even accidentally.
It scares me a lot to think of ever being in this situation.
My friend dealt with this when he got mugged. The guy took all of his stuff - wallet, phone, etc as well as his girlfriend's stuff. Then the perp just ran off, thankfully. They recovered most everything, and because my friend swapped his phone # to a new phone, the fool thief handed out the stolen phone's number to friends and family. So my buddy started having people calling and asking for the thief :\ For real. This ultimately led the police right to where the phone and thief were.
A gun to your face is a very bad situation. Your options are extremely limited, as far as defusing the situation. Your best bet is to comply and hope the person gets what they want and goes away. That includes your wallet, gun, shoes, jewelry, even your clothes.
You can buy new things, but you can't buy another life.
Bullcrap
My life is too valuable to leave the "life or death" decision up to someone else, especially some random thug.
Have you ever taken any lethal force classes?
"Refuse to be a victim" is a recurring theme in all of the mainstream lethal force classes I've ever attended.
Have you ever taken any lethal force classes?
"Refuse to be a victim" is a recurring theme in all of the mainstream lethal force classes I've ever attended.
Tactical Lever
Member
The problem with reacting in any way, or even failing to react in such a situation still leaves the probable outcome with the assailant. 70 some percent of physical attacks are dictated to be won or lost simply by who strikes first.
I would venture that the guy that has a gun in your face likely has the ability to strike first, and for all intents and purposes has struck first. And what are the chances that after being shot that the defender will come out "on top"?
Who will be the one who is willing to kill for a 20? I don't think many courses advocate getting in a shootout if there is a way out.
Perhaps the criminal element is not trustworthy, but if you have not been shot when the criminal has the means and the advantage, its prudent to think that they are just after some cash, and when getting it will leave.
I agree with "not being the victim", but in a mugging when you are already drawn on, you kind of are. Of course you could draw, make him miss, et cetera.... At what cost? Is your family standing behind you? Who else is in the cross fire? How many years of court and how many thousands, and how much quality time, and mental anguish could it cost, if you hit an innocent, or just come out on the bad end of a litigious system and society?
627PCFan
Member
Heres the Russian version of close quarters disarmament. Nice sidestep even though the shot goes off.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=dca_1409174421
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=dca_1409174421
Dave A
Member
Take advantage of reaction time. I carry a double edge dagger in the 4-o-clock position on my belt. The grip is quite slim, has no guard, and fits sheath and all in to the back pocket of my jeans very nicely. Add a carefuly folded bandana to the pocket and it is nearly invisible.
If are close enough to hand him your wallet you are also close enough to crowd his gun hand across his chest with your left hand and strike in the throat with the knife in right hand. The last thing he expects is a counterattack with a knife at close range and will not be able to avoid the knife because you are inside his OODA loop.
If are close enough to hand him your wallet you are also close enough to crowd his gun hand across his chest with your left hand and strike in the throat with the knife in right hand. The last thing he expects is a counterattack with a knife at close range and will not be able to avoid the knife because you are inside his OODA loop.
Every situation is going to be completely different, and speculating on "what if's" could last forever.
When this topic comes up in concealed carry classes I teach, there's a couple of videos I show to illustrate different tactics that may work when you start off on the wrong footing (bad guy has the drop on you).
This one starts out with an off duty cop losing his awareness for a moment, and finding a gun shoved in to his face while pumping gas. He's facing 3 on 1 odds.
[YOUTUBE]9TIOYj8Qna0[/YOUTUBE]
This video shows the actual shoot; and how the cop distracted the guy with the gun by handing him something in his pocket.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8ac_1392220321&comments=1
The bad guy with the gun died, the other two ran off.
Practicing draw from concealment, point shooting from retention holds, and getting smooth transitioning from draw to first round on target is important for dealing with scenarios like these. I briefly covered the topic of close quarters draw in this TV show.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j41sYCPX6Hw&t=17m35s
In class we cover a variety of scenarios, lateral movement while shooting, which direction is safer to move to depending on the attacker's distance and strong side, etc.
I have no idea where you're pulling statistics like these;
But aside from a firearms self-defense instructor I have also been in martial arts for 30 years and taught for the last 25 of those. Who throws the first blow is largely irrelevant in a fight; the person with more training and skill has a significant advantage. Case in point; ten years ago I was unfortunate enough to have to USE what I know when I was attacked by a man with a knife at very close range. He tackled me - I was blindsided - and he brought a knife in to play once he'd landed on top of me. I walked away with his knife, he lost two teeth and was knocked unconscious. My right arm was the only thing I had free; it was pinned mostly across my chest. Used my elbow on his jaw, and it was over. My wife was standing right there, and missed the entire show in the time it took for her to turn around!
(On a related note, sometimes you find yourself caught off guard because the attacker is friend / family - in this case, a very, very drunk, and very suicidal friend.)
First blow doesn't matter one bit, as long as it's not immediately fatal or incapacitating - what matters is that you fight back and know HOW to go about fighting back. If you know your business you stand much better than even odds against an untrained / unskilled attacker.
Watch this video.
[YOUTUBE]pkWgp2abM2w[/YOUTUBE]
Lance Thomas is a jeweler who was in not one.. not two.. not three.. but FOUR gunfights. In each of those fights he was on the defensive, several were against multiple armed attackers, and in more than one fight he was shot and kept fighting.
There are a LOT of valuable points to gain from that video and the interviews with him; the importance of training, mindset, and the attitude of "I refuse to be a victim."
I'm not trying to bash what you are staying here; on the surface what you are suggesting makes sense, but dig in to the topic a little deeper, do some more research, and you'll find that a lot of the notions you've put forward are wrong, tactically, and from a "live to see another day" standpoint. There's TONS of incidents where people are shot and killed who did not fight back, over a $20 bill (or similar).
Heck the NRA even has an entire instructor / training course program on the very topic:
[YOUTUBE]qMTocXkILPc[/YOUTUBE]
rodinal220
Member
Action is quicker than re-action.
MachIVshooter
Member
Correct...............unless you telegraph your intentions. Act quickly and decisively, you have an advantage.
For me, the options are:
-At contact distance, knock the gun away from me with my weak hand, hardest uppercut I can deliver with my strong arm. What happens from there will depend on whether or not the attacker is conscious, and if he still has the weapon. Either way, I should have time to draw my own weapon while he is at least stunned.
-At greater than contact distance, get off the X, keep moving and draw my own weapon.
I have never trained to control my attacker's weapon, and I'm not interested in grappling when a gun is involved. Rather than try to incorporate all kinds of crazy techniques that work great in simulations, I have ingrained myself with a simple but effective plan that doesn't require much thought or fine motor control, and is not dependent on any kind of set-up/positioning, or the attacker doing what he is supposed to do. By knocking the gun away from me first, I accomplish two things: One, I'm no longer in front of the muzzle and two, it will distract the attacker from what's coming a split second later.
I'm not advocating this method for others, just saying I feel it is my best option because I'm young, strong, healthy, and have a build that makes me an ideal boxer, standing 5'10" @ 185 with a short torso, long legs and a 6'5" arm span.
Because I am right handed, this technique works best with a right handed opponent (~85% probability in a real situation), but I have also practiced both ways with a south paw opponent. Still deflecting with weak hand and hitting strong hand is about 300ms slower with a Southpaw opponent. I have also practiced deflecting with strong hand and hitting weak hand against a lefty shooter; quicker, but the blow is less precise and less powerful. Six of one, a half dozen of the other I guess. Hopefully statistics are in my favor if I ever encounter the situation!
Tactical Lever
Member
Do you think I should start? I am not an expert, but there are a few people that really know what they are doing. And quite a bit to weed through.
Tactical Lever
Member
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Tactical Lever
Member
I'm not saying don't fight; but do it smart and above all survive. Even Massad Ayoob kept a small amount of money to "throw away" supposedly.
Hopefully he will chime in.
Hopefully he will chime in.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
There are a few versions of that story, some pretty funny.
But on the subject of throwdown wallets ... choose wisely:
Tactical Lever
Member
I worded that poorly; I did not mean necessarily to throw it. I was speaking figuratively. More of a token to distract or even placate if things are really not going your way.
Again, I'm not saying "roll over", but when they already have the drop on you, your options have become somewhat limited, as to what you had available before.
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