A letter to my grocery store

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I have not been able to talk to Jan (a manager in HR I have known for 11 years) but I did run across this piece about a related bill in Oklahoma. Please note the discussion at the end of the section. "we are concerned about worker safety, but..."

In January 2002, a new union contract went into effect at the Weyerhaeuser Co. paper mill in Valliant, Okla. One of its clauses mandated a strict "no guns on company property" policy. Previously, the plant had a written policy that permitted employees to have firearms in their vehicles, as long as the vehicles were locked and the guns were out of sight. Company officials insist they informed workers about the change in policy. Quite a few employees claim they never heard a thing about it.

On Oct. 1 of that year, following a drug-related incident at the plant, the company conducted a sweep of vehicles in its parking lot, looking for illegal narcotics. It was the first day of deer-hunting season. The search turned up no drugs, but 12 vehicles contained firearms. All 12 workers were fired.

In a different setting, the incident might have been just another tale of unlucky employees running afoul of "zero-tolerance" rules in an era of zealous homeland-security monitoring and increased liability worries. But in rural Southeastern Oklahoma, where many residents are ranchers and hunters and gun ownership is a cherished tradition, a firestorm of controversy erupted.

"People were outraged and angry, and they still are," says Democrat state Rep. Jerry Ellis, who used to work at the Weyerhaeuser plant himself. With help from the National Rifle Association, Ellis proposed a state law that reads: "No person, property owner, tenant, employer or business entity shall be permitted to establish any policy or rule that has the effect of prohibiting any person, except a convicted felon, from transporting and storing firearms in a locked vehicle on any property set aside for any vehicle."

It passed by wide margins in both chambers of the state house and was signed by the governor.

"The NRA Civil Rights Defense Fund gave support to the employees' legal efforts to get their jobs back," wrote Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president and CEO of the NRA, in an organization publication. "And we worked hard at the grassroots level to help Oklahomans enact their landmark laws to stop this corporate gun ban. We had hoped the new laws would serve as an affirmation of existing public policy, render the legal battle moot and provide reinstatement for the wronged employees."

The effort was stymied, however, when several local employers, including Whirlpool Corp. and ConocoPhillips, obtained an injunction stopping implementation of the measure while it is being appealed. At press time, the law was still being adjudicated in federal court, and Ellis is still angry. "They're defying the will of the people," he says. "These are law-abiding citizens."

While the companies say safety was the primary concern, they also acknowledge another pressing matter was the question of liability: If the state is going to prevent them from implementing what they consider to be a common-sense safety measure on their properties, company representatives say, then companies should not be held liable for gun crimes that take place on said properties. In response, a second measure was passed giving employers immunity from such liability, though some critics say the measure doesn't go far enough.

Feeling the Heat

"Protection from liability isn't going to be much good to the person who's been shot," says Allen J. McKenna, a partner in the Orlando, Fla., office of law firm Ford & Harrison. "But besides that, the scope of the liability protection is not really clear. For example, can employers still be sued for negligent hiring? These are important issues."

The real bottom line is the bottom line.
 
A model letter for the rest of us to utilize subject to your ok, which I believe you've said is alright! Exceedingly well written, Strat81. I will use that exact wording should I encounter a sign such as that at any establishment where I spend my money.

Encouraging to see such level thinking from a "young person" in their 20's! :O)
 
I have discussed with people from the HR department at two places that I have been employed at and both confirmed that this this is from insurance/legal considerations. The "no weapons" policy results in less pay-out for lawsuits, and therefore lower insurance costs. Companies insure themselves for more than simple slip-and-fall type injury liability.
Please feel free to check with your local mid to large company yourself.
Funny that the majority of businesses don't post signs (at least not in Oklahoma anyway). I guess those businesses must have more enlightened insurance companies.

HR departments will say anything that helps their company. The perception is that they are employee advocates :neener: . Nothing could be further from the truth. HR exists to insure that companies follow employment law and to cover the company's butt. It's really that simple.
 
Mannlicher said:
When I see a sign like that, I just ignore it, and conduct my business as I always do.
Which is exactly why nothing ever changes.

KUDOS to Strat81 for actually doing something to further the cause.
 
Signage

Please let us know what happens...



"It's you and me against the world. When do we attack?"

"…as guilty as O.J."

"We shall yet prevail!"

"Women can keep a secret just as well as men, it just takes more of them to do it."
 

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I wrote a similar letter to my local CellularOne store and their national headquarters. Neither ever responded back. No biggie. I'd already switched carriers.
 
Being in the food/alcohol business in AZ, I place a no gun symbol on the front door to remind CCW folks that guns aren't allowed in establishments that serve alcohol.
But realistically I would prefer that you do. Concealed means concealed, just don't let me see it, or the alcohol license inspector if he is in the building.

I am seriously considering implementing a new national sign for folks like myself.
Maybe something like a no firearms symbol with a smiley next to it, meaning it is forbidden to carry here, but I want you to.
Thoughts?
 
BBQJOE, I understand where you're coming from. Some of the local banks, as well as the courthouse, have the no guns signs posted, presumably as a reminder for those of us with CHPs.

As far as signs at your business, I don't know AZ law. Are you required to post a "reminder"? What happens if local LE or the alcohol inspector is there and sees a concealed weapon on one of your customers, are you liable? If you aren't required to post, and you are not liable if your customers carry where they shouldn't, then I'd say forget about the signs. They can be misinterpreted by some people and, at the very least, are eyesores.
 
No, I'm not required to post. There are a countable number of real life "Cowboys" out here who carry openly.
I think some are unaware of the laws as it pertains to alcohol, I'm not totally certain if they were to be seen, that I as an owner would suffer any repercussions, but I would hate to see a customer get into trouble.

But similarly, if I owned a bank, I would want all my customers packing.

But good point about the sign.
 
For anyone interested I went in and talked with the store owner today as I live in the same town as strat81. He mentioned that someone had sent him a letter earlier and that it made him think about his reasons for putting up the sign. He also said that the only reason he put it up was because his grocery supplier (the store is a member of a coop) sent the sign to all of their stores. The same company also provides insurance as a perk for any member of the coop if they wish to participate which I would imagine is the reason the signs were sent out. I won't mention the name of the supplier but I used to work for them. I told him if nothing else he needed to raise the sign in the window because it wasn't in a good location that everyone would notice it. He admitted he knew nothing about what it took to get a permit so I went through what it takes to become a permit holder and he thought he could take it down. His wife then came over and said she would take it down and as I walked away to pick up a few groceries she walked over to the window and took the sign down. So the letter did a tremendous amount of good. The owner also recognized me as I am in his store at least a couple of times a week so he knows that I am a good customer. I actually only live across the street from him.
 
Bravo! Another win for the good guys. Not only was it a win but you were also able to educate someone in the process. Congrats!
 
I have to give the credit to jlficken for this one. It was his face-to-face contact that did it. Putting a face on concealed weapons can really help.
 
Thanks guys. I may have taken awhile to get it done but I think he realized that CHP holders are just concerned citizens and are probably more responsible that 90% of his average customers.
 
When MO got their CCW law on the books, a big chain of groceries put up these signs in St. Louis. They have since come down in most areas. I shopped in one of their stores every week. When I saw the sign I went about my normal shopping and filled a cart. Maybe I went a little heavy on the fresh meat. I pushed it up to the service counter and asked for the manager, when he showed I politely said I was disapointed in their sign, and this is the amount of business he would be loosing every week when I went across the corner to his competition (which did not post). Oh, and I asked him to put the stuff back. He was not happy, but I guess I got my point across. I know I felt better.
 
Good show

rickstir--That should have gotten your point across. I had composed a letter to the small mall near my place,(they had put up a small "no guns" sign, which was not binding in Texas) I began to look for a mailing address, and was startled to find that the mall was owned by a group in California!!! So I slowly picked up my marbles----no use preaching logic to people who are not logical.:banghead:
 
It might be a good lesson also to realize these people who put up the signs aren't necessarily the devil. They read their mail and some have the on site authority to change policy.

This person listened to the logic of a gentlemanly customer who had a concern about his store's policies. Looks like there's a lesson to be learned here.
 
Kudos from me.

Two citizens worked together to educate someone on the realities of "gun-free zones" and it worked.

I'm sure that the shop-owner fell into the same category into which most of America falls into; they just don't know. As such, they are vulnerable to the messages fed to them by Hollywood and other media.

The rest of us need to do the same whenever the opportunity presents itself. It is really pretty easy. I recently converted a person in my office who was rabidly anti-gun. He still hates guns, but after putting it into a freedom context, his position is now that "I still don't like guns, but I will fight to defend your right to carry." One at a time boys, one at a time.

Great job gentlemen!
 
jlficken and strat81 - Maybe a good follow up would be to invite the store owner to attend CCW classes with his wife. Further encourage the understanding of what a legal right to carry permittee has to go through to earn the right to carry.
I absolutely applaud the both of you because you acted like reasonable men and didn't get on a tirade about this issue which would only have reinforced any negative the store owner might have had.
I worked for an entity that forbid guns in the workplace. They dealt with people who were not the finest examples of the human race and several employees had been threatened and we actually had a man enter with a gun and take a hostage. It ended with a dead hostage and the man with a self-inflicted bullet in his head living on life support and diapers since then. I kept my Springfield Armory Mil Spec 45 with me tucked at the bottom of my briefcase. I figured if I had to use it, I'd be alive and I could always deal with the consequences and look for another job after, but to do either you had to be alive and that 45 gave me a better chance of that. I no longer work there, but by my choice. The 45 is still with me.
 
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