A Letter to Ron Paul about reopening the Machinegun registry.

[Owen Sparks]

BTW, Ron Paul is retiring from Congress and is no longer in position to introduce any more bills.

 

[Swing]

What do you think would be a fair $ amount for a transfer tax on Bibles?

Full length or one of those "sawed-off" pocket versions that only have the New Testament?

 

[25cschaefer]

Full length or one of those "sawed-off" pocket versions that only have the New Testament?

Those sawed off versions are what they give the troops when they deploy, military grade, you could just whip it out in a crowd of people and start preaching-everybody could fall asleep in no time. Way too dangerous.

 

[Orkan]

I just haven't seen yet how this is a strategy.

That's because bribery is no strategy at all. That is what's currently happening.

It's illegal to own a machine gun. Yet if you send $200 and go through a lengthy background check, and a ridiculous 6-9 month wait time... your bribe will be granted, and you can take home your machine gun.

It's illegal to do pretty much everything... unless you pay a tax. (Bribe) We've let ourselves get to the point where we have no rights, unless we have the ability to pay for them.

Tyranny, by definition, is something that is legal for the ruling class, but illegal for those being ruled. Tyranny is ALWAYS accomplished by "law." After all, it would be unconscionable for a ruling entity to break the law, right? So they just modify the law to suit their goals. That is what happened in 1934. They wanted to ensure that the ruling powers in the government had superior firepower when compared to those being ruled.

In the name of compromise, the citizens of this country have sold our rights wholesale to the government.

Doubt me? Make a list of everything that is "illegal" unless you pay a tax and jump through hoops, which then if authorized, becomes legal as if almost by magic. Personal liberty rarely, if ever, comes into the equation.

Worse yet, is the fact that people are so accustomed to being ruled, that they will fight anyone that wants to remove power from the rulers. They can't stand being fully responsible for everything they do. It's much better for them to have to ask permission, so if something happens as a result, they have someone to blame.

Nothing is more disgusting to me than talking to a machine gun owner, and having them voice their position that they would fight the repealing of the NFA of 1934.

Their reasons cover the gamut, but here are a few:
1) They had to pay the tax, so they want to make sure everyone else does.
2) They are afraid of their collection being devalued.
3) They don't want NFA items in the hands of the "poor."
4) They want the government knowing who has NFA items.

In any event, the owners of machine guns that refuse to fight for the repeal of the NFA and the GCA feel themselves to be in a different "class" than a regular citizen. They are special in their ability to afford machine guns that would otherwise be 1/10th of their value if newly manufactured items were allowed to be sold in an unregulated fashion.

As usual, gun owners are our own worst enemies. People's selfish excuses will continue to ensure that our freedoms will be compromised into oblivion, just has happened for the last hundred years.

 

[Orkan]

Food for thought:

Here is what all this compromise has produced -
http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa092699.htm

 

[academy]

Why not allow Native Americans to manufacture them on tribal land, then "import" them to the United States? It would provide an economic boon to areas that could use one, and allow for new manufacture. They're allowed stuff like casions, why not throw them an industrial bone? Maybe institute a special "import tax" to be paid to allow the gun off tribal land...

 

[mboylan]

Why not allow Native Americans to manufacture them on tribal land, then "import" them to the United States? It would provide an economic boon to areas that could use one, and allow for new manufacture. They're allowed stuff like casions, why not throw them an industrial bone? Maybe institute a special "import tax" to be paid to allow the gun off tribal land...

Importation of machine guns was banned with the GCA of 1968. That's why most of the foreign made machine guns you see are conversions of semi-autos. So you are really talking about repealing sections of the FOPA and the GCA. Not going to happen.

I don't expect to see legal post-86 machine guns in my lifetime.

 

[AlexanderA]

I think there are Congressmen/Senators that would vote for opening the registry, if the issue was presented to them in the right way, and if they had political cover in doing so. The "veterans' heritage bill" is one way of doing this. Most likely, opening the registry would be slipped in as an amendment to some other bill, like the reverse of what happened with the original Hughes Amendment. A big tax bill is the perfect vehicle for this -- opening the registry could be cloaked as a "revenue raiser" in some obscure provision.

 

[Orkan]

Sorry, but I'm not voting for anything that will increase the bribe. We need to fight the fights that need fighting, not just the fights we think we can win.

 

[Sambo82]

Most likely, opening the registry would be slipped in as an amendment to some other bill, like the reverse of what happened with the original Hughes Amendment. A big tax bill is the perfect vehicle for this -- opening the registry could be cloaked as a "revenue raiser" in some obscure provision.

This is exactly what I was thinking. Paul seems like the perfect candidate for this. He's pro 2A and this is, from what I understand, his last term. So essentially he's got nothing to lose anyway from such a rider.

 

[Walther P99]

In addition to a rider lifting the mg ban, maybe something removing the GCA 1968 import ban.. Although probably a long(er) shot for lifting the import ban.

 

[zignal_zero]

Yea it seems like one could explain reopening the registry along the lines of - in 1986 the machinegun registry was closed. Since then, as many as 100,000 fully automatic weapons have been made inside the U.S. and the authorities have absolutely no way of determining who is in possession of these military style weapons. By reopening the registry, the gvt would be given a powerful tool in the fight against the illegal arms trade. Once again, all newly manufactured machineguns would be subjected to a registration process that involved a background check. Furthermore, retroactive registration of the machineguns manufactured after 1986 would be encouraged by offering amnesty to those who are currently in possession of an unregistered machinegun. So not only would this law allow the gvt to keep track of all newly manufactured machineguns, it also has the power to greatly reduce the number of unregistered machineguns that are currently in this country with absolutely no documentation on who owns them.

 

[Sam1911]

Since then, as many as 100,000 fully automatic weapons have been made inside the U.S. and the authorities have absolutely no way of determining who is in possession of these military style weapons.

Based on what information? Where does this 100,000 new illegal machine guns number come from?

By reopening the registry, the gvt would be given a powerful tool in the fight against the illegal arms trade.

What? Are you saying that people who make/sell/trade in illegal weapons would come to the light side if there was a way they could register them with the government? I'd think this is self-evidently fallacious. The only people making/selling/trading in illegal weapons in any quantity are doing so to serve very wealthy criminal organizations (and I think even these are very few). That's never going to be legal, and those customers would not be interested in purchasing registered arms for sale through lawful channels anyway.

Furthermore, retroactive registration of the machineguns manufactured after 1986 would be encouraged by offering amnesty to those who are currently in possession of an unregistered machinegun. So not only would this law allow the gvt to keep track of all newly manufactured machineguns, it also has the power to greatly reduce the number of unregistered machineguns that are currently in this country with absolutely no documentation on who owns them.

I don't think TPTB are too concerned about this. Folks who use weapons in violent, unlawful ways aren't going to REGISTER them with the government, so this won't change anything whatsoever about the safety and control of dangerous, violent criminals. All it would do is DE-criminalize folks who own contraband now, as curios and novelties, and I can't imagine the government has any compelling interest in helping those people out of the legal danger they are in.

 

[AlexanderA]

Sam1911 -- What zignal_zero wrote was a "plausible rationale," not a statement of facts. Of course your analysis is correct. But since the whole scheme of regulating machine guns is based on fear-mongering, why not counter it with something that sounds plausible to the uninitiated? Run it up the flagpole and see who salutes. We have nothing to lose. (I would quibble about making statements like "100,000 post-1986 machine guns in circulation," but along general lines the idea of putting unaccounted guns into the database sounds good.)

 

[Sam1911]

That did tickle the back of my brain as I was responding -- a rationalization known to be specious but a useful piece of chicanery intended to help the uneducated masses swallow the medicine.

We should probably preface such statements with a brief disclaimer so that it is clear what we're about, rather than posting them baldly as though they are statements of merit that we accept credulously.

 

[Swing]

Since then, as many as 100,000 fully automatic weapons have been made inside

Out of curiosity, what is the source of this figure?

 

[zignal_zero]

I get my stats from the same place the anti's do...... I pull them out of my butt notice it did NOT say "100,000" it said "as many as 100,000" that means its a possible number. Also, be sure to use their own vernacular, things like "millitary style weapons" and other catch phrases they recognize. Very important to do a "take away" - our side needs to balk about the bill infringing on our rights, that way they our convinced its THEM who want this bill. Oh and I did give you a small headzup, the 1st sentence said 'someone could explain it like this" (or something to that effect) I thought y'all'd catch it.

 

[Swing]

I get my stats from the same place the anti's do...... I pull them out of my butt

Um, OK ...

 

[mboylan]

I get my stats from the same place the anti's do...... I pull them out of my butt

Illegal post-86 machine guns are quite rare. Illegal pre-53 machine guns are quite common.

Most figures I have seen have put the number of legal transferable on form 4 machine guns at less than 200,000.

I do not believe there are 100,000 illegal machine guns in the US, period. Crimes with illegal automatic weapons are exceedingly rare.

 

[zignal_zero]

Actually they're not that rare. Now I did just randomly grab a figure, half for the sake of demonstrating the lunacy of "statistics", and I do not believe my number is accurate. If it was, it would be an accident. However, there are quite a few machineguns that were manufactured after 1986, never registered, and without BATFE approval. Think about how many HK trigger packs have been sold for 99bux. You think those were all for replacing parts in a registered receiver? It would be a little odd that more trigger packs get sold than there are RR's accounted for. Or how about all the FA FCG's for AK's? Are those only bought by folks who have a registered AK and want to replace their FCG? Truth is - a lot of machineguns have been made since the registry closed and not all are by people who were already criminals. Watch how many folks step up if they ever did open the registry and granted amnesty for any one who has one. You think wait times are bad now LOL there'd be a 5 yr back log created over night.

But it doesn't matter if you believe me. I want the anti gun crowd to believe it. That way, reopening the registry can be pitched as a way to curb the anonyminity of MG ownership. I still think pitching the bill the way my original post did would be an easier sell than any other method.

Do not confuse the number of crimes committed with illegal MG's with the number of illegal MG's in existence. Im sure a large portion of them are owned by (otherwise) law abiding folks

 

[jmorris]

Nothing is more disgusting to me than talking to a machine gun owner, and having them voice their position that they would fight the repealing of the NFA of 1934.


Their reasons cover the gamut, but here are a few:

1) They had to pay the tax, so they want to make sure everyone else does.

2) They are afraid of their collection being devalued.

3) They don't want NFA items in the hands of the "poor."

4) They want the government knowing who has NFA items.

That is, for lack of better words, false.

1) $200 is nothing these days. It costs me more than half that for a tank of fuel.

2). I could care less if the machineguns I have dropped in value like Enron stock if I could form 1 all the new ones I wanted. Always wanted quad mini guns for my Jeep.

3) The government wants ME to be poor. Now that I have busted my ass and can afford semi-expensive toys (I am already taxed on) they also want me to cough up "my fair share". The exact amount they want to extort from me varies but many of them would like to take enough to make me decide not to work thus be dependent on them to provide for me like the rest of the dead beats. Not sure where they think this ends up but that's a different thread.

4) Currently the government only knows where legal NFA items are and thoes are not the ones that I worry about. Hell, they are giving them away, I guess to poor countries, and have no idea where they are now.

 

[forestdavegump]

The president does not have unlimited powers, he is limited by congress.

They, the government and/or congress, are limited by the people, provided the people are willing to limit the government. I hate to mention checks and balances....as things are out of balance and have run unchecked so long, that to speak up now seems radical and outside the norm? GOOD! As for the norm today, and for a while now, the "norm" has been to play ostrich. People seem or are to busy, working so they can eat....or too busy on social sites and playing on-line games or.....I don't know what?

.....The deliberations of the Constitutional Convention of 1787 were held in strict secrecy. Consequently, anxious citizens gathered outside Independence Hall when the proceedings ended in order to learn what had been produced behind closed doors. The answer was provided immediately. A Mrs. Powel of Philadelphia asked Benjamin Franklin, "Well, Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?" With no hesitation whatsoever, Franklin responded, "A republic, if you can keep it.".....:banghead::banghead:
Above quote from the http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/659-qa-republic-if-you-can-keep-itq

Problem today is few are willing to keep it. Glad that those here are fighting the good fight and willing to stand. Also glad others are waking up.
The above letter needs to go further than to Dr. Paul. We need to send letters to our local, state, and federal representatives. Again and again and again, until we get the results WE want.....the squeaky wheel gets the oil!!!!! If you send the mail letter return receipt requested and signature required, you will know when they get it, and it costs more, but you will know.(Then follow up by phone) Emails and other forms of non mail, who knows if...(round file).....As for the cost of mailing the letter this way it is money well spent as if everyone of us did that it would make a difference. Freedoms have a price! Mailing and calling can be done by all easier than watering the tree of liberty?

 

[zignal_zero]

Oh just to make sure nobody misunderstands where I am on this issue - I feel you should be able to go to the convenience store, at 0200hr, and buy a select fire Krink and they should only ask you for ID if you look less than 18 or 21 (we could argue that later). Also - I purchased a legally registered title II firearm (a SWD M11) I have never illegally converted a semi auto to fully automatic, but I do not consider the folks who have criminals as long as they are not using those guns to commit crimes. Just wanted to clear that up

 

[mboylan]

Think about how many HK trigger packs have been sold for 99bux. You think those were all for replacing parts in a registered receiver? It would be a little odd that more trigger packs get sold than there are RR's accounted for. Or how about all the FA FCG's for AK's? Are those only bought by folks who have a registered AK and want to replace their FCG? Truth is - a lot of machineguns have been made since the registry closed and not all are by people who were already criminals. Watch how many folks step up if they ever did open the registry and granted amnesty for any one who has one. You think wait times are bad now LOL there'd be a 5 yr back log created over night.

Do not confuse the number of crimes committed with illegal MG's with the number of illegal MG's in existence. Im sure a large portion of them are owned by (otherwise) law abiding folks

Well AK full-auto FCGs and often BCGs are included in every AK build kit. Most get tossed in the trash. Very few people are going to drill the axis hole and make the rail cut when the penalties are about the same as holding a kilo or two of cocaine. There aren't alot of jigs out there for people to get the location correct either. Full-auto fire does attract police and it's really easy to look at an AK receiver and tell if it's full-auto or semi-auto.

I will bet most of those HK lowers went into drawers or posties at ranges that rent machine guns. The HK full-auto lowers don't fit semi-auto uppers, which are very costly to begin with. There aren't alot of people out there with the know how to cut the upper receiver to accept the lower. Then you have to find a full-auto BCG.

Converting semi-autos to full-auto is alot more difficult than most people believe. The receivers are designed to not accept the full-auto FCG in most cases. It is a task far beyond a kitchen table gunsmith.

 

[zignal_zero]

ok, well i guess we will just have to agree to disagree. i do not believe converting a semi auto to full is that difficult and i do believe it has been done countless times since 1986. you don't

none of that was ever really the point of my post, though, and it stinks that my original message could get so clouded behind all this detail dispute. all i am saying is: point out the fact that machine gun manufacture has not been stopped and NEVER can be (whether or not it's true), that a machinegun can be made so long as Lowe's or Home Depot is in existence (even in the abscense of ANY pre-made firearm). Explain that most machinegun owners are hobbyist that truly wanted to abide by the law, but the gvt forced them into anonyminity by no longer allowing registration of mg's.

i truly believe pitching this as a "let's register the guns that ARE OUT THERE" will sell it. heck, i believe we can make them think it's THEIR idea. i've had a lot of experience as both a sales rep and a police officer, this could work