A little concerned about CHL instruction in Texas.

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My CHL class was strictly regs. Taught by a retired DPS SGT. The first part of the class was a little boring just listening to the legal aspects but it was informative. The second part was at the range where the instructor actually gave us a shortened class in basic handgun techniques. A lot of people in the class had very little experience with firearms in general and they were all talking about how much they learned. All in all a very good class/experience.
 
"I carry a Ma Deuce. All other weapons remain obsolete."

In an ankle holster.

Mine was pretty good, a cop and a guy that shoots a lot of IDPA taught it. Lots of emphasis on the law, and ethics. Really pushed that fact that although you could shoot someone, you really needed to think if it was worth killing someone stealing a toolbox out of your garage, and things like that.
 
Quote: "I was under the impression that a recently passed Texas law had waived the licensing fee for veterans (but not the instruction fee). Somebody help me out here..."

As of Sept. '07 Vets get 50% discount on DPS's portion (just like those 60 and older).

Another change that came as a surprise even to a lot of us instructors who'd followed the Legislative session rather closely was that CHLers can skip entire training portion on 3'rd, 5'th, 7'th, etc. renewals. Fee to DPS still required every 5 years, but no classroom or shooting. DPS' computer supposedly to keep track of it all ...
 
Funny, except ingorance too.
Many, many years ago I said that I would be willing to stand at 100 yards and let someone shoot at me with a .45.
Not too many years after that I was on the range with a rifle, and a competition shooter came out and set up a target at 100 yards since that was the range I was shooting.
WOW, he hit a man size target. I learned that lesson the easy way.:D

Any instructor that did as the OP said was probably not really teaching what the requirements are. I have taken the TX course, and did not experience such ignorance.
I help teach a CHL course here, and the required subjects do not permit very many war stories if we teach what is required, and what our course outline states.
Best,
Jerry
 
I wonder a little about the guy I took my CHL class from... He sez he carries a scandium S&W .44 magnum, or a .500 S&W and actually likes to shoot them... He also raves about something called Thunderwear or the like... Scary...

John, you still read all this?

(grin)
 
M2Carbine wrote:

Just because someone completes the Texas DPS instructor course, doesn't mean they know what they are doing or that they aren't pretender.

if you could only have seen some of the guys in my CHL instructor recertification class i was in a few months back. it is truly amazing to think that some of these guys are making a living (meaning, putting on weekly classes) doing this.

i had a guy requalifying on the DPS range next to me shooting a Bersa or something similar. what didnt make sense to me is that the DPS paperwork said that you had to qualify on the semiauto with a 9mm or larger caliber (even though you can qualify as a CHL permit holder with a .380). anyway this guy shows up with a .380 and he starts shooting, but evidently when he put his gun back together at one point in time he put the spring in backwards that holds the slide catch in the "down" position. so, it was put in to keep the slide catch in the "up" position instead, so it would actuate the slide stop after every round was fired. :eek:

so, how does this guy fix it? he removes the slide catch lever from the weapon and sets it on the plastic barrel in front of me. im thinking...does this guy carry this gun and remove the slide catch lever every time he thinks he is about to get into a gunfight, or is he thinking he only needs one round, or...?

so i see the DPS range officer coming down the line and he will put an end to this madness. he stops at the guy's barrel and sees the slide catch lever sitting on the barrel. he asks why that part is missing from the man's gun. the guy explains to him that it is because it is constantly keeping his gun out of battery after every shot.

in my opinion he should have rendered that gun an unsafe weapon and removed the weapon from the line (then he could have put the guy back on the line with a functioning weapon, like one he could have borrowed from another CHL instructor who probably would have been more than happy to lend him his gun). but the DPS range officer let him keep on shooting that way and walked on.

ok....so anyway we finish and they tell us to score each other's targets. so i have to score his target. no biggie, from what i can see the guy has probably qualified (they require CHL instructors to qualify at 90% or better).

so i go up and start counting the holes (to make sure all 50 rounds are on paper, as you're supposed to score). the guy snaps at me and tells me to just count the rounds in the 5-ring and 4-ring, and the difference is obviously what's left in the 3-ring.

well all of us know that you would then count misses as 3 points instead of zero points. so that is just lazy scoring......and not the approved DPS method, NRA method, or any other method im aware of.

so i score his target and i think he got like a 240/250 or something which was just fine to pass. and by now he's giving me a dirty look because i didn't score his target his way.

so after lunch we go to the classroom to do the legal updates and i see the same guy is sitting by this table full of "CHL Instructors Association" (or something similar) shwag.

evidently he is the President of the Texas CHL Instructors Association or something and was busy trying to sell other CHL Instructors these shirts, patches, etc. all bearing the logo "CHL INSTRUCTOR."

not a bad idea, but since i don't teach while wearing anything that says "Instructor" on it i didn't see the reason to get a shirt or cap. i figure if they can't figure out after 10+ hours who the Instructor is in the room then they have no business carrying a weapon. :)

i was just very surprised to see that the guy who's in charge of the CHL Instructor's Association was such a boob on the range.

some of the things i do tell all of the people who take my class:

1. know that the person you take your CHL class from will ultimately be put on the stand and have to testify on your behalf if you ever get into a critical incident. imagine your CHL instructor on the stand in front of a jury representing you. if you are comfortable knowing that this person will be one of your "expert witnesses" then you are okay. if not, seek another CHL instructor. there are plenty to choose from.

2. that person's credentials will be put to the test and will reflect upon you. having just a CHL instructor's certification is one thing, but remember, your "expert" witness will be put against the State's "expert" witnesses, who will most likely be "professional firearms instructors," i.e. police academy instructors, use of force experts, and the like. guys who teach full time and have made a career out of it. it's good to have your "expert" witness have equal or stronger credentials as the guys the prosecution may put up against you to say that you did something wrong.

that's why i have certifications to teach law enforcement, private security, and private citizens. that way, i have equal or stronger credentials as the other "expert" witnesses out there that may go up on the stand against a CHL holder in a questionable shoot. i have certifications for all three (police, security, and private citizens). currently i hold 10 instructor certifications regarding use of force (getting my 11th in April). that is generally more than most "professional" instructors hold, the ones that the prosecution will put on the stand.

i also teach other related disciplines such as less-lethal (baton, OC, low light) to help show that i have the credentials to explain the correct use of force in whatever situation was presented. as we know a gun isn't the only force option, nor is it always the best option.

3. know that if you do get involved in a critical incident, or even display your weapon in self defense, know what may and probably will happen. the cops will probably be called and you may find yourself getting arrested for doing nothing illegal. does your CHL instructor refer you to a criminal defense attorney whom you can call personally 24/7 to get you out of jail? of course the service is not free or part of the class tuition, but it's good to know that you can put this card in your wallet and call it in the event that you find yourself getting arrested. this attorney also knows that anyone who takes my CHL class is given priority. yes he answers his phone personally 24/7 and yes he will get out of bed at any hour of the day or night to get you out of jail on a Hobby Release. many other attorneys do not answer their phones personally at night. all you get is an answering service.

further i also advocate invoking your Miranda rights immediately. but you must know how to do it correctly. know the legal loopholes that law enforcement has to continue to question you when you think you invoked your 5th Amendment right, but case law says you have not. if you are interested in this you can research what im talking about (if you don't already know. all of my students know what im talking about).

4. does your CHL instructor go above and beyond what DPS mandates you teach, and go over practical examples of things like the "21 foot rule"? we teach this on the range and in the classroom and give you a very real example of how someone can cut you with a knife from about 21 feet before you can draw and fire. why is this important to see? so you can say you saw this example in real life and so if you are confronted by an aggressor with a knife and if you shot him you can say you knew that there was an imminent threat to your life. this is the same example i would take an entire jury out to see on a firing range so they could see what you have been trained with, so they could make a logical conclusion as to why you chose deadly force at 21 feet.

bottom line: question the credentials of your CHL instructor. if he is offering a cheap class then maybe he has nothing to back it up. if he is talking nonsense on the phone then maybe you don't want him as your instructor. a rambling crazy man in class will be a rambling crazy man on the stand.
 
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Great post, Spreadfire Arms. If you don't look out for yourself..no one else will. It's carved in granite.

Some people in class are young and take things the instructor says as gospel. The instructor has a great responsibility and not all are up to it. To send a freshly armed young person out into the world with misconceptions and misinformation is a dangerous thing.
 
Great post, Spreadfire Arms.

One correction though. In Texas, the minimum caliber for the "Handgun Proficiency Requirement" of the CHL class is .32 caliber. See GC Para 411.188

Cheers,
ChickenHawk
 
I gotta add a +1 about The Bullet Trap in Plano. First rate instruction on required subject matter. No hokey anecdotes. I traveled 35 miles from home to attend my renewal class there even though many closer options were available. Well worth the fees.
 
I'm still deciding who to go with here in the DFW area - I'm not all that impressed by what I've seen so far.
 
ChickenHawk,

my apologies! .32 caliber not .380......brain fart. ive never had a person show up with anything less than a .380...my bad.

goes to show you, the CHL instructors dont know everything.

but the DPS paperwork said no caliber less than 9mm for instructors. they also make instructors qualify at 90% on both pistol and revolver.

also forgot to add:

-if you do get into a shooting and your attorney needs to hire expert witnesses to testify on your behalf, the average rate for one to testify is about $100/hour. that includes them waiting to testify and standing outside the courtroom.

-i can't speak for other CHL instructors, but i testify for free for all of my students.
 
Hi S.A.

No apology necessary to me!! It was just a clarification. Yours was a great post and I'll bet you are an outstanding instructor.

Cheers,
Chickenhawk
 
I wish I had called up Spreadfire when I got my CHL, I guess that I will just have to wait until I need to renew...
 
I'm still deciding who to go with here in the DFW area - I'm not all that impressed by what I've seen so far.

I strongly recommend the Bullet Trap in Plano. Their instruction is first rate as is how they've organized the whole process of getting the license (photos, finger prints, range quals). What I really liked is the instructors don't engage in hypothetical situations..."if some guys is carrying a chicken and a chainsaw and breaks into my tool shed, am I justified in..." sort of questions.

No matter where you go - even the Bullet Trap - you run the chance that the audience may contain:


The elusive "Operator" : "let me tell you about the dependability of the M4...wait, I can't talk about that..."
The know-it-all: "the .45 was never a good man-stopper"
The completely clueless: "which end do the bullets go in?"
And the one who scares me the most, "With this license can I shoot a guy if he's messing with my trash cans?" OR "Do I have to shoot if I draw my weapon?"

Have fun and concentrate on learning the laws. They just changed in Sept '07 (in our favor) and you really need to know them in this state.

Thanks,
DFW1911
 
As a bit of counterpoint....

Current educational research has pretty well established that students retain more information from instructors who spend part of the time discussing themselves. It's counterintuitive, but, even though less information is presented (because the rest of the time is taken up in personal stories), more information is retained by the student (theory says the students connect more with the instructor, in practice maybe there was less to remember, maybe forced exposure to endless annecdotes burns the whole experience into the students' minds).

That's the downside of the "just the facts" style of teaching. Controlled studies show it is actually less effective on average. Less painfull too (ok, I don't know if any studies back that claim) but no pain, no gain, right?

But what if you, as the instructor, really don't have a life worth telling stories about? Most people have boring, shameful, tired little lives... if that was you (heh) would you really want to share your banality with a room full of strangers? Just for their gain? Or would you rather make up something interesting?

I'm not saying that's the case for everyone but I bet it's a factor more often than not.
 
"I have learned silence from the talkative, kindness from the unkind, and tolerance from the intolerant; yet strange, I am ungrateful to those teachers"" ---Kahlil Gibrahn

Sometimes you can learn quite a bit from watching what an idiot does, and then doing the opposite!!!
 
Spreadfire, a .380 ACP is a 9mm. It's 9mm Browning Short (9x17), rather than 9mm Parabellum (9x19), but the state law doesn't specify what kind of 9mm must be used. Until they do, you should be able to use 9x17, 9x18 (Makarov), 9x19, 9x20 (9mm Browning Long) or even 9x23 (9mm Largo).
 
The 45 they gave me in Korea, a worn out WWII model, wouldn't hit a man size target at 25 yd, but I could obliterate it with the Thompson and shoot 2" groups with the M2carbine. That pistol was so loose it rattled, but it never jammed or misfired. For years I thought 1911s were all like that....
 
Spreadfire
I'll have to keep you in mind 4 years from now, or maybe sometime soon for general non-CHL training. I have friends in Austin that might love a guys weekend/tactical handgun training. I just re-upped and it was a one on one class. The instructor was great and everything went extremely well. The part that concerns me and makes great sense is the testifying. I shall cringe now while thinking of him testifying on my behalf.
 
Thanks, DFW1911 - I'll definitely look into them. I used to teach this stuff when living in South Africa and I have a slightly jaded eye towards instructors these days ;)

That said, learning the laws are the single big thing for me - from my research so far, Texas and S.A. don't seem to be too far apart, SD-law wise (although I'm still slightly amazed at the Texan "criminal mischief at night" issue).
 
EdAmes wrote:

Current educational research has pretty well established that students retain more information from instructors who spend part of the time discussing themselves. It's counterintuitive, but, even though less information is presented (because the rest of the time is taken up in personal stories), more information is retained by the student (theory says the students connect more with the instructor, in practice maybe there was less to remember, maybe forced exposure to endless annecdotes burns the whole experience into the students' minds).

that is absolutely true. i guess another reason to take a class with a more "experienced" instructor. they have actual experience that can translate into a personal story they can share, in which the student can better absorb the material.

i'd guess it is truly hard to take a CHL class from an instructor who's never pointed a gun at anyone in real life in a real shoot/dont shoot scenario.

i once got into a discussion on ARFCOM where a bunch of guys were discussing a certain instructor's credentials. this instructor had alot of great credentials. some were badmouthing him, others were supporting him. a friend of mine posed the question about how many ARFCOM members who were participating in the thread had actually pointed a gun at someone in real life with the intent of having to possibly use it.

he got no replies from anyone except one guy qualified himself as saying, "i am in shoot/dont shoot situations every day. by simply carrying my concealed weapon i am constantly analyzing every situation to see if i need to draw." :rolleyes: i'd take that as he never had to actually draw down on anyone, although he has certainly entertained the idea a few times.

my friend who had posed the question had worked an armed security job the week prior and drew down on a guy armed with a knife in front of a rap club in downtown Austin. it was the first time he'd ever drawn his gun on anyone. although he made a few tactical errors, the bad guy dropped the knife and nobody got hurt. he was very hard on himself thereafter, busy Monday Morning Quarterbacking himself.

i told him that for the first time in his life drawing down on someone he did pretty darn well. (everyone will remember their first time - mine was on a murder suspect on the side of an Interstate in California in February 1993 - i was holding a S&W Model 66 4" with .357 Federal Hi-Shoks and shaking violently from the adrenaline rush)

unfortunately there are some CHL and other firearms instructors who have no experience, training, or credentials, outside of the 40 hour class mandated by Texas DPS.

the instructor game is played by alot of guys - not all are qualified, in the sense of liability, to teach. all will gladly take your money though. i know many instructors who have never pointed a loaded gun at a real person in real life in a real situation. they can theorize and what-if the hell out of it but they have no real experience to back up what they think and why they think it. that is very important in court to be qualified as an expert witness. and most if not all of the examples they have are stolen from someone else ("a good friend of mine told me that...")

for those who have asked, i do offer some training with another training group i am affiliated with in Austin. they are called The BlackStone Group. their training staff has a former Navy SPECWAR (SEAL Delivery Vehicle #2) guy, current and former military/LEO's, and an Iraqi contractor who just came back from a 2.5 year contract with DynCorp training Iraqi Special Police Commandos. we are also in the process of obtaining a former 18D (Special Forces Medic) and a big time former SEAL to assist in training in the Austin area.

alot of these guys have alot of time behind the trigger, some of them much more qualified to teach than me (that means, i'll be attending their classes as well!)

if you're interested in taking other firearms classes (not just CHL) you can contact them at [email protected] mention you are a THR member and ill see to it they give you some sort of discount.

for those of you interested in obtaining an armed security commission for Texas i do teach that class. the next class is Feb 29-Mar 2 in Austin (West Lake Hills). it is 3 days, about 30 hours, (Fri-Sun) and is the required class you need under Texas law to work any armed security in the State. it is also the springboard to become a Personal Protection Officer (armed bodyguard) in Texas.

thanks for the information guys. this is a good thread. :D
 
"i am in shoot/dont shoot situations every day. by simply carrying my concealed weapon i am constantly analyzing every situation to see if i need to draw."

Did Gecko45 say that?

I checked out Blackstone Group's website and the classes offered look good. That would probably be the most practical use of my "tax rebate" check I can think of. My wife says I have enough junk, but since she is a teacher she always considers professional education to be extremely valuable...and having been a professional student (college, the best 8 years of my life) I have to agree.
 
Wedge wrote:

"i am in shoot/dont shoot situations every day. by simply carrying my concealed weapon i am constantly analyzing every situation to see if i need to draw."

Did Gecko45 say that?

no he didn't some other guy said that, whom i won't publicly disclose. he was a guy who from what i know is not a "professional" gun carrier, i.e. not military, LE, or the like. just your basic CHL'er i guess (there's nothing wrong with that).

what made the guy ridiculous was that he was trying to qualify himself as experienced as the "professional" gun carriers by virtue of simply being armed under his CHL on a daily basis.

walking around armed is one thing, having to face a potential threat and going for your pistol is quite another. i dont think he was able to differentiate between the two.

kind of like having a driver license and a car, but not ever having to take evasive action to avoid an accident. just because you think about potentially having to avoid a collision isn't quite the same as having to actually drive evasively to avoid a collision. i think you get the idea.
 
1911 is a 25 yard shooter? Ha! Try the fool is a 25 yard shooter, tops! Another "Blame the pistol for my poor performance and lack of practice" case.
 
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