A little note about Ranier Hollowpoints

[ljnowell]

I recently purchased some Ranier Ballistics plated 200gr hollowpoints. I got them cheap and wanted some hollowpoints to load. I really didnt expect great expansion from a cheap-o hollowpoint, although expected something. The following is cut and pasted from their website:

The successful implementation of our "RESTRIKE" technology has allowed Rainier Ballistics to now manufacture our "rapid expanding" HEX Hollow Point. Listen to what Tom Burczynski, designer and patent holder of the Starfire, Quik-Shok and Hydra-Shok bullets had to say; "There's no question that the combination of stress risers and malleable copper plating used in Rainier's HEX H.P. bullet provides the shooters with an excellent, rapid expanding bullet."

I worked up a load in Winchester brass with Winchester LP primers and 700x. Shooting over a chrono my loads from weak to hot were from 680fps to 910 fps. I didnt test for expansion any loads that were under the 750 fps range. Expansion tests were done using milk jugs of water, which I have come to understand from reading on here and other forums should expand the hollowpoint, possibly farther than ballistics gelatin. I should note that in this crude test I wasnt expecting GDHP quality expansion by any means. The hottest load went in and out 4 milk jugs full of cold water (roughly 40 degrees). The round exhibited zero expansion. I can post pictures of the bullet, but it looks like any other hollowpoint that hasnt expanded.

I contacted Ranier ballistics and explained the same thing to them last week, although they dont seem the least bit interested in the fact that the bullet didnt expand. Not even concerned enough to reply.

 

[The Bushmaster]

I use Hornady bullets if I want expansion. If I want a good practice bullet I use Rainier HP. Wouldn't care less if they expand against a paper target and oak railroad ties (which they don't). Next...?

 

[ReloaderFred]

It's hard to get a .45 acp bullet that expands reliably. Those that do have very wide hollowpoints and thin nose areas. I've found that your experience is pretty typical with that bullet.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[ljnowell]

Senior Member



Join Date: 01-29-05
Location: Ava, Missouri
Posts: 5,080 I use Hornady bullets if I want expansion. If I want a good practice bullet I use Rainier HP. Wouldn't care less if they expand against a paper target and oak railroad ties (which they don't). Next...?

Well, thank you, I am glad you dont care, now why exactly did you bother posting? I was putting this thread up for someone who may actually want a hollow point to expand so that they dont buy these.

 

[ljnowell]

It's hard to get a .45 acp bullet that expands reliably. Those that do have very wide hollowpoints and thin nose areas. I've found that your experience is pretty typical with that bullet.

Hope this helps.

Fred

Yeah, as I said above, I really didnt expect great expansion based upon the design of the bullet. I just wanted to throw out there that they in fact have zero expansion.

 

[Ben Shepherd]

I'm assuming 45 ACP here?

 

[The Bushmaster]

The reason that many of the plated bullet manufacturers even make a hollow point is because we ask for them because we believe they (hollow points) are more accurate then ball...Otherwise they wouldn't bother...

 

[Galil5.56]

Well, at least you know what bullet NOT to use for SD, and took the time to come to your own conclusion. Like so much in this hobby, it looks like hype, and a paid endorsement/quid pro quo, whatever, will get you.

I get the feeling "Tom" did a speculative armchair eval concerning these bullets, with no actual testing. Real nice if in fact they got the email, they did not reply .

 

[ljnowell]

The reason that many of the plated bullet manufacturers even make a hollow point is because we ask for them because we believe they (hollow points) are more accurate then ball...Otherwise they wouldn't bother...

They really shouldnt have bothered in this case.

 

[Walkalong]

Ranier Ballistics plated 200gr hollowpoints

don't shoot that great anyway. The Ranier 200 Gr SWC's on the other hand, shoot very well.

You bought them cheap to plink with. They were good for that. I don't think anyone expects any real performance out of them as far as expansion or holding together.

 

[ljnowell]

I don't think anyone expects any real performance out of them as far as expansion or holding together.

Thats exactly what i said in my post. I was just wanting to throw the heads up to anyone that is buying them. The website is bunk, the advertising is false, and they are what they are.

 

[The Bushmaster]

Oh...I don't know Walkalong. I use the 185 grain Rainier plated HP for target and CCW practice and they seem to hold up too well. Even when a 935 fps Remington 140 grain SJHP .38 Special smacks them when they are imbeded in the tie. Rather amazed...Penitration into an oak railroad tie by a 935 fps .38 Special is only the bullets length + 1/4". The 185 grain .45 ACP at the same speed only penitrate 1/2" more...Of course this is seasoned oak...

 

[jerkface11]

It's hard to get a .45 acp bullet that expands reliably.

The 9mm ones don't expand either.

 

[Idano]

If your hottest load was only moving at 910 ft/sec I wouldn't expect you would see any expansion. Now I don't shoot the heavy grain Rainer bullets in 9 mm or 40 S4W but I do push in the vicinity of 1100 ft/sec and they show good expansion but my bullets are moving about 200 ft/sec faster then yours. The 200 gr 45's are hard to get motivated for good expansion even for jacketed bullet without beating your stops to heII.

 

[ljnowell]

If your hottest load was only moving at 910 ft/sec I wouldn't expect you would see any expansion. Now I don't shoot the heavy grain Rainer bullets in 9 mm or 40 S4W but I do push in the vicinity of 1100 ft/sec and they show good expansion but my bullets are moving about 200 ft/sec faster then yours. The 200 gr 45's are hard to get motivated for good expansion even for jacketed bullet without beating your stops to heII.

Actually that is shooting a max load. Ranier recommends loading their bullets to lead specs, and not exceeding 1000 fps. This is how they say to load their "rapidly expanding" hollow points. I am not here for criticism of my loading, I followed the specs laid out by the manufacturer. This round went in and out of 4 milk jugs of cold water and stopped when it impacted an sheet of 5/8 OSB. It had to be pried out also. It was in there good.

To the above post about the solidity of the bullet. I am not going to complain about that. The bullet did not lose its plating at all. In fact I guess I could go ahead and take a picture of it, if you guys want to see it. I would not say that the round nose rounds are no good, as the plating is obviously top notch. I am just putting out their for others peoples knowledge, these HP's dont expand.

 

[rockhound758]

As I recall, there are some alternatives (like Zero, I believe) that are JHP but still in the same price range as plated. I haven't bought Zero myself yet but am going to do so. You might want to check them out.

 

[ljnowell]

As I recall, there are some alternatives (like Zero, I believe) that are JHP but still in the same price range as plated. I haven't bought Zero myself yet but am going to do so. You might want to check them out.

Thanks for the recomendation, but I a think I am going to call it quits onthe plated bullets. I am ordering a lonewolf barrel for my glock and moving to all lead for practice. If I feel the need to load my own HD rounds I will just by gold dot component bullets. I have had great luck with those. In all honesty though, I think I will continue to buy my HD ammo. I like the HST and GDHPs. Probably just stick with that. I only bought these because I needed something cheap to load while I waited to get my Lone Wolf barrel.

 

[moooose102]

i bought a box of 500 to run through my wifes 40 s&w. i honestly bought them because they were cheap, but, yes, i would expect them to expand, at least under the correct circumstanses. i wouldnt think they would be a perfect double in size perfect mushroom, but it should do something. it is supposed to be a soft lead core with a minimal amout of soft copper plating. so why wouldnt anyone expect them to expand? that being said, i would not buy them for self defense. my life, and the lifes of my family (or yours if it was warranted) are just way to precious to take a chance for a few cents. after all, how many real shootings is one normal (non-leo) person going to have in his lifetime? maybe, if he is terribly unlucky two or three. anyway, i will have to do a similar test on these. but i will also be honest and say that i allmost always load hp's very near max charges for two reasons. 1) the faster it leaves the barrel, the more energy it has to do its job. and 2) the higher the velocity, the better chance it will expand. what distance were you shooting at? was it far enough away that the bullet would have slowed considerably? i figure for expansion tests 20 feet. that is sort of a magical number here in michigan (self defense wise) so that is where i test. (you are in better legal shape if a person is within 20 feet, OR shooting at you for the police to immidiatly consider s-d a viable condition here) if mine do not expand at all, i will try scoreing the copper with a utility knife from the corners of the hex outward. i dont think this would do anything harmful to accuracy, but yet it will create a weak spot to initiate expansion. you also could give this a try if you want. it will probably be a couple of weeks before i can get to this.

 

[ljnowell]

i bought a box of 500 to run through my wifes 40 s&w. i honestly bought them because they were cheap, but, yes, i would expect them to expand, at least under the correct circumstanses. i wouldnt think they would be a perfect double in size perfect mushroom, but it should do something. it is supposed to be a soft lead core with a minimal amout of soft copper plating. so why wouldnt anyone expect them to expand? that being said, i would not buy them for self defense. my life, and the lifes of my family (or yours if it was warranted) are just way to precious to take a chance for a few cents. after all, how many real shootings is one normal (non-leo) person going to have in his lifetime? maybe, if he is terribly unlucky two or three. anyway, i will have to do a similar test on these. but i will also be honest and say that i allmost always load hp's very near max charges for two reasons. 1) the faster it leaves the barrel, the more energy it has to do its job. and 2) the higher the velocity, the better chance it will expand. what distance were you shooting at? was it far enough away that the bullet would have slowed considerably? i figure for expansion tests 20 feet. that is sort of a magical number here in michigan (self defense wise) so that is where i test. (you are in better legal shape if a person is within 20 feet, OR shooting at you for the police to immidiatly consider s-d a viable condition here) if mine do not expand at all, i will try scoreing the copper with a utility knife from the corners of the hex outward. i dont think this would do anything harmful to accuracy, but yet it will create a weak spot to initiate expansion. you also could give this a try if you want. it will probably be a couple of weeks before i can get to this.

I look forward to seeing your results. Like I said I am afraid to push the load any farther for fear of kB. Perhaps the .40s will expand better. You are dead on about defense though, I will stick to factory ammo for that.

 

[Idano]

ljnowell, there was no attempt what so ever to critique you reloading, I was merely stating that expansion shouldn't be expected in velocities below 1,000 fps unless it is a frangible bullet. I read about that minimal velocity in one of the reloading manuals but I'll be damed if I can remember which one.

By the way the recommended velocity for Rainer bullets is between 1,200 and 1.250 fps not 1,000

Q3. Do your bullets have ANY velocity restrictions?
A. In general, our bullets typically perform their best when shot at velocities no greater than 1,200 to 1,250 Feet per second (FPS).
http://www.rainierballistics.com/mainframe.htm

I have been using Rainier bullet for the past 10 years in my 9 mm with phenomenal success and in my 40 S&W for the past two years

 

[ljnowell]

Idano, I have read the same thing on their website. However, that is a generalization about all of their bullets, not a particular statement on .45 acp. When I contacted a Rep of the company prior to loading I was told to not exceed max loads for lead rounds. In a .45acp that really has a limit on velocity. To push a .45acp to 1250 fps would be one heck of a strong load.

For the giggles of it i loaded to 5.4gr of 700x tonite. Thats over max load for lead and right at max for jacketed. Shot over a chrono at anywhere from 1125-1200. Still zero expansion. I have loaded GDHP to 900-1000 fps and received more than adequate expansion.

I will not disagree with your assesment of velocity and expansion as that has always been the limiting factor to a .45 acp HP expanding, however, some expansion should be expected. These rounds are exhibiting zero expansion.

I find it interesting to note that the same address that I emailed to the first time to ask about velocities and loads is the same one I wrote to about the lack of expansion. They responded when I was considering purchasing their product in less than an hour. They havent responded to my last email that was sent on friday of last week. Hmmm.

 

[rockhound758]

LJ, the Zero bullets are jacketed, not plated. Again, I haven't yet used them but I read good things and they are priced right for JHPs for plinking at higher velocities if that's what you like to do (I do as well).

 

[ljnowell]

LJ, the Zero bullets are jacketed, not plated. Again, I haven't yet used them but I read good things and they are priced right for JHPs for plinking at higher velocities if that's what you like to do (I do as well).

I have heard good things about the zero bullets. I havent loaded any of them myself though. I think I am going to stick to lead for plinking though, as its cheaper than all of the other options. An aftermarket glock barrel pays for itself quick when loading lead.

 

[rockhound758]

Sounds like a plan...wish I could shoot lead at my range but everything has to be plated or jacketed...it's a beautiful facility but a bummer re: no cast...

 

[Idano]

however, some expansion should be expected

I hear you, and I know the 45 is a tough nut to crack when it comes to getting good bullet performance. I use to shoot a 45 for about eight years and ended up just going with the classic RN. I am surprised that your 700X load didn't show any expansion.

I do have to say I am a little disappointed in their recent pricing and if the customer service you're receiving is an example of the norm then I am guessing their business must be doing well enough that they don't need the little guy anymore. Good luck with your endevor there,