A little note about Ranier Hollowpoints

[ljnowell]

I hear you, and I know the 45 is a tough nut to crack when it comes to getting good bullet performance. I use to shoot a 45 for about eight years and ended up just going with the classic RN. I am surprised that your 700X load didn't show any expansion.

I do have to say I am a little disappointed in their recent pricing and if the customer service you're receiving is an example of the norm then I am guessing their business must be doing well enough that they don't need the little guy anymore. Good luck with your endevor there,

Thats the route I am going now too. I havent decided yet whether I want to load LRN or LSWC. I have loaded both in small quantities myself, but I am getting ready to make a big purchase (big for me, probably 2K bullets) and need to make up my mind.

I'm sure I have mentioned it, but I am relatively new to the reloading game. I used to load .45s with my uncle about 15 years back on his dillon progressive. That was more a matter of him setting everything up and me pulling a handle. I am now doing it all myself, and having a ball at that.

I think when I order the bullets i settle on I am going to order some bulk powder. Lots of poeple have recomended bullseye as an excellent .45 powder. On the fast side, but low charge weights and easy to meter in a powder measure.

 

[evan price]

I use the Rainier 124-HP to make 9mm practice rounds to duplicate Gold Dots. I have them shooting close enough to the same (report and POI/POA wise) that I am comfortable in this. I don't like spending $.50 a shot for practice. $.10 a shot lets me practice more. As for expanding or not in a target, who cares, it's paper. I carry Gold Dots, I practice with Rainiers.

 

[ljnowell]

I use the Rainier 124-HP to make 9mm practice rounds to duplicate Gold Dots. I have them shooting close enough to the same (report and POI/POA wise) that I am comfortable in this. I don't like spending $.50 a shot for practice. $.10 a shot lets me practice more. As for expanding or not in a target, who cares, it's paper. I carry Gold Dots, I practice with Rainiers.

I wasnt concerned with expansion as I have no intention of using these for self defense, possibly dispatching unwanted pests around the property, but thats it. I started this thread with the sole intention of letting people know about my experience with it. I am not trying to be curt but I have had to say this several times in this thread to people who post Who cares? Why post if you dont care?

 

[Beagle-zebub]

Wait, are there any .45 HPs that are not at least somewhat finicky? This sounds like something that would come up in an argument in favor of .40S&W.

 

[Galil5.56]

I am not trying to be curt but I have had to say this several times in this thread to people who post Who cares? Why post if you dont care?

Or my favorite: "Here we go again, how many times does this question come up, DO A SEARCH... but while I'm here..."

Yeah, never miss an opportunity to be an *****. Why reply unless it's to rub your ego, instead of wanting to genuinely help?

 

[jjohnson]

Why Bother?

A quote that nailed my pet peeve with these folks: I do have to say I am a little disappointed in their recent pricing

Oh, absolutely!

Are Rainiers GOLD PLATED now or something?

I've given up on them. Berry's Bullets seem okay - I've loaded a few thousand of 'em, and they're fine so far, though I haven't done any testing on expansion of their hollow points.

Thing is, though, with Rainiers selling for very close to the price of the cheaper jacketed bullets, why buy their product at all? I can bargain shop for the lower priced jacketed bullets and do as well. True, the same price as Rainier's products won't buy me the better jacketed bullets, but it gets me close.:banghead:

So why buy Rainiers at all?

 

[rockhound758]

"I am not trying to be curt but I have had to say this several times in this thread to people who post Who cares? Why post if you dont care?"

I think most of the times when people are saying "who cares" on this thread, it's part of their response and description of what they're using, etc. so they're simply giving THEIR opinion, just as you've given yours. I don't think they're trying to be critical or mean spirited or anything, seems like they're just saying FOR THEM it doesn't matter.

Actually, I know there are exceptions but for the most part I think THR lives up to its name...folks for the most part are really friendly and helpful and there's some great information here. Kinda wish it wasn't that way...I might get more work done!

Take care all...snowy and cold here in Ohio today!

 

[rockhound758]

"Thing is, though, with Rainiers selling for very close to the price of the cheaper jacketed bullets, why buy their product at all?"

Bingo. And while I'd love to shoot cast (and have done so a LOT in the past) the range to which I have a membership doesn't allow them (but everything else about it is great), so higher-power "plinking" with jackets is still what we need to do. Some of the less expensive jacketed sound like they'll fit the bill perfectly.

 

[ljnowell]

so they're simply giving THEIR opinion, just as you've given yours. I don't think they're trying to be critical or mean spirited or anything, seems like they're just saying FOR THEM it doesn't matter.

Thats the whole thing though, if it doesnt matter that they dont expand, if they dont care, of if they detest ranier and dont want anything to do with them, why bother posting in the thread? This is sidetracking though, and thats not really the point here. The point is the bullets do not perform as Ranier has advertised them too, and that Ranier customer service sucks. They ignore emails and could care less about the "little guy" customer.

So why buy Rainiers at all?

I can give a good reason. I bought them because I was already making an equipment order from an online vendor that sold them. I wanted 100 bullets only to load for my first time and I didnt want to use lead (because of a certain austrian poly-rifled barrel). They were the cheapest option.

 

[Walkalong]

"Thing is, though, with Rainiers selling for very close to the price of the cheaper jacketed bullets, why buy their product at all?"

Yep, Raniers used to be a little more than lead, but kept on going up and up, until you can now find jacketed as cheap as Raniers. They make good bullets for plinking/informal target shooting, but they need to bring their prices in line before I buy more. I switched to Berrys, which shoot great. I am very happy with them. I can also buy Montana Gold jacketed for about the same money. Ranier is out of luck for now, at least with me.

I agree with ljnowell as far as Ranier's advertisement about their HP's. It's prototypical BS advertising, but if you are unfamiliar with plated bullets, it is believable. They should chnage their advertisment.

 

[jjohnson]

+1 Walkalong

Who said:

Yep, Raniers used to be a little more than lead, but kept on going up and up, until you can now find jacketed as cheap as Raniers. They make good bullets for plinking/informal target shooting, but they need to bring their prices in line before I buy more. I swithced to Berrys, which shoot great. i am vry happy with them. I can also but Montana Gold jacketed for about the same money. Ranier is out of luck for now, at least with me.

Exactly. I thought it was a really cool move when I started buying Rainier bullets instead of cast - less leading! Great!

But at the time, their bullets were just a bit more money. And the deals at Midway were attractive.

Those times went away.

As you so aptly put it, they're out of luck for now. I LIKE their product - but the price is so close to real jacketed bullets, I'm not buying them. On the good side, I've found Berry's to be very good products, too, and I've found retailers that I like better than Midway at the same time.

"Keep your stick on the ice. Remember, we're all in this together." Red Greene, on The Red Greene Show

 

[evan price]

I am not trying to be curt but I have had to say this several times in this thread to people who post Who cares? Why post if you dont care?

I posted to show my experience with Rainiers, not to belittle yours. My feelings are, it's practice ammo, as long as it ballistically duplicates the Gold Dot carry ammo I use, who cares of the practice stuff expands or not?
If you are intending to use your reloaded Rainier HPs as SD ammo, obviously YOU care.

If you want the thread to be "Oh, ya ya, Rainiers suck!" well, sorry, other than their pricing getting silly, I have no problem with Rainier bullets.

If you want "reliable" expansion, feel free to spend the money on Gold Dots or Hornady XTPs- buy a budget bullet, get budget results.

In fact, why not try that? Compare the same load in the same pistol with the same targets using retail purchased SD bullets such as the Gold Dot or XTP. Let us know how they expand. I'm curious.

 

[ljnowell]

I posted to show my experience with Rainiers, not to belittle yours. My feelings are, it's practice ammo, as long as it ballistically duplicates the Gold Dot carry ammo I use, who cares of the practice stuff expands or not?
If you are intending to use your reloaded Rainier HPs as SD ammo, obviously YOU care.

If you want the thread to be "Oh, ya ya, Rainiers suck!" well, sorry, other than their pricing getting silly, I have no problem with Rainier bullets.

If you want "reliable" expansion, feel free to spend the money on Gold Dots or Hornady XTPs- buy a budget bullet, get budget results.

In fact, why not try that? Compare the same load in the same pistol with the same targets using retail purchased SD bullets such as the Gold Dot or XTP. Let us know how they expand. I'm curious.

I didnt say they sucked. Read it again. I said more than once that accuracy was good as was the copper plating. I didnt ask for your opinion on anything, nor do I care. The whole point of this thread was to state for people that didnt already know that contrary to the advertising of Ranier their "rapidly expanding" hollow points do not expand. I never intended on using these for defense. God forgive me for posting some real world testing of a bullet. I didnt realize people like you would get upset over it and have to give your opinion, even though it wasnt required or asked for.

I have no intention of doing any further testing with them, because I dont intend on buying any more of them. It has absolutely nothing to do with the expansion or lack of either. It has to do with poor customer service. People that cant even be bothered to answer an email of someone who has purchased their product. Even though they had no problem answering me when I was a "potential" customer.

 

[rockhound758]

"I didnt ask for your opinion on anything, nor do I care. The whole point of this thread was to state for people that didn't already know that contrary to the advertising of Ranier their "rapidly expanding" hollow points do not expand. ...I didnt realize people like you would get upset over it and have to give your opinion, even though it wasnt required or asked for."

LJ, with all due respect nobody owns the thread, and ALL these threads are fluid...I personally like the idea that people will post their experiences, etc. I understand your frustration if you feel like your original message is getting lost or belittled, but I don't think it is...people are just doing what they do on these threads...comment. If what you really wanted to do was just more or less post a statement, is there a better way to do that here on THR (I'm asking that in all seriousness)...e.g., with a label "Just an FYI" or something?

 

[ljnowell]

LJ, with all due respect nobody owns the thread, and ALL these threads are fluid...I personally like the idea that people will post their experiences, etc. I understand your frustration if you feel like your original message is getting lost or belittled, but I don't think it is...people are just doing what they do on these threads...comment. If what you really wanted to do was just more or less post a statement, is there a better way to do that here on THR (I'm asking that in all seriousness)...e.g., with a label "Just an FYI" or something?

Thats kind of what the whole point of the thread was, an FYI thing. I mean, if you dont care that they dont expand, fine, why bother posting, you know what I mean? I didnt ask for excuses or for people to defend the fact that they dont expand. Lets get serious, they are cheap bullets, I didnt expect them to expand either, but someone out there besides me has to wonder how decent they are. I thought it would be nice to throw it out there, so other people can gain from that. Not so they can come in and say, "so what" or "who cares" etc.

 

[rockhound758]

I'll agree with you that Ranier has lost its luster (at least with me), given that they're about the same price (maybe more) than some well-accepted jackets. In any case, good to know they don't expand, etc. Take care and stay warm (cold as blue bloody blazes here in Ohio tonight)

 

[ljnowell]

I'll agree with you that Ranier has lost its luster (at least with me), given that they're about the same price (maybe more) than some well-accepted jackets. In any case, good to know they don't expand, etc. Take care and stay warm (cold as blue bloody blazes here in Ohio tonight)

Yes it is, I live here in IL and its -3 right now at my house. BRRRRR. I guess the part that really tweaks me is that Ranier didnt waste any time in responding to my emails when I was a potential customer. When I emailed them after the fact, twice now, they havent even bothered to respond with a "gotcha sucker!" Nothing. Not real good customer service.

 

[evan price]

God forgive me for posting some real world testing of a bullet. I didnt realize people like you would get upset over it and have to give your opinion, even though it wasnt required or asked for.

I guess *I* don't understand why people post on public forums and then get upset when other people respond with their own experiences. This is a public forum. It's not your own little bulletin board where you can throw something out there and not expect someone to have a differing opinion. You stated your opinions- and they are valid as they pertain to your specific situation. Others may disagree as their specific situation differs from yours.

If you want to complain without anyone else disagreeing, start a blog and lock out comments. Then you can say whatever you want without worrying anyone will sully your message with their unsolicited opinions.

I don't really think Rainier will lose any sleep over anyone not buying their products (unless EVERYONE stopped buying their products).

-3 here in north central Ohio tonight, it's so cold it hurts to go out for firewood so I'm on Kerosene tonight.

Happy shooting, and try Hornady XTPs or Gold Dots if you want expansion.

 

[ljnowell]

I guess *I* don't understand why people post on public forums and then get upset when other people respond with their own experiences. This is a public forum. It's not your own little bulletin board where you can throw something out there and not expect someone to have a differing opinion. You stated your opinions- and they are valid as they pertain to your specific situation. Others may disagree as their specific situation differs from yours.

If you want to complain without anyone else disagreeing, start a blog and lock out comments. Then you can say whatever you want without worrying anyone will sully your message with their unsolicited opinions.

I don't really think Rainier will lose any sleep over anyone not buying their products (unless EVERYONE stopped buying their products).

Evan, sorry if I sounded like a jerk, I didn't mean to come across that way. I've been short with several people today due to reasons I dont want to discuss in the forum (anyone that knows me a WTA knows). That aside, I am a big enough man to apologize when need be.

I am sure Ranier wont lose sleep over my decision not to buy their products, although that does say a little something about them as a business. Total lack of response is unbelievable for a company that size. In fact, when I was placing an order with midway tuesday, with the same guy I made the last order with, he asked me if I was satisfied with the last order. I related to him the Ranier thing, not complaining, just told him the results of my testing. He put me on hold and offered to take back the remainder and exchange them for a SWC or something of that order. They didnt even make the product and were willing to do more than Ranier. I explained to him that I didnt really mind anyway, as they were practice ammo, but thanks for the offer.

I do thank you for your contribution, even if I didnt treat you fairly earlier in the thread.

 

[evan price]

ljnowell:

You don't have any reason to apologize. This is The Internets after all. We all have those days. I wasn't trying to be a jerk either.

Good luck with what you choose to replace the Rainiers. Keep warm (especially the gun- you know what The Beetles say about hapiness...)

 

[ljnowell]

ljnowell:

You don't have any reason to apologize. This is The Internets after all. We all have those days. I wasn't trying to be a jerk either.

Good luck with what you choose to replace the Rainiers. Keep warm (especially the gun- you know what The Beetles say about hapiness...)

I decided to just go with straight lead for my practice rounds. A lot cheaper. I'll keep my gold dots for HD. If they would come a little closer in price to berrys bullets though, I wouldnt mind getting some more, as they were very accurate in my loading.

 

[jjohnson]

Bullet Testing? How about comparison tests?

Well, now that I got a chance to vent about the prices on the Rainier Gold Plated Bullet line of goods....

As long as we've established some agreement that it sounds awfully stupid to pay as much or more for a plated product as the real thing (jacketed bullets) maybe it's time to do a little comparative testing.

Anybody up to testing Rainier's Gold Plated non-expanding hollowpoints against, say, Berry's, Montana Gold, and maybe a couple of the lower priced bulk real hollowpoints like Remington and Winchester?

I know, most of us aren't interested enough to do a full blown ballistic lab test like HP White might do, but it might be fun to load up a number on top of same charges of powder and shoot up some ballistic gelatin, or at least, wet phone books or something.... what do you guys think? My guess would be that Berry's beats Rainier, Montana Gold beats Berry's. I'd guess that there's not a lot of difference in performance between Montana Gold and the bulk lowest priced Remington and Winchester hollowpoints. That's my GUESS, though, and I wouldn't pay a nickel for THAT .

Anybody game? Thoughts?

 

[ljnowell]

I know, most of us aren't interested enough to do a full blown ballistic lab test like HP White might do, but it might be fun to load up a number on top of same charges of powder and shoot up some ballistic gelatin, or at least, wet phone books or something.... what do you guys think? My guess would be that Berry's beats Rainier, Montana Gold beats Berry's. I'd guess that there's not a lot of difference in performance between Montana Gold and the bulk lowest priced Remington and Winchester hollowpoints. That's my GUESS, though, and I wouldn't pay a nickel for THAT

I would love to try that, but by the time I bought a small quanity of all of those, I would burn up a couple months of my reloading budget. If someone who reloaded those were willing to send me 3-5 of the ones they have I would be happy to load them, test them, and take pictures.

 

[Walkalong]

Make a list of what you want. Maybe we have some of it we would be willing to part with for a worthy cause. A report with pics would then be mandatory, of course.

 

[jjohnson]

Bullets for Testing +1 for Walkalong

Right, what Walkalong said. I'd be willing to buy some bullets I don't even have on hand. Just about any of 'em can be had in quantities of 100, and I wouldn't mind giving up some for testing. I don't think 3-5 bullets of a particular type would make for good statistics - the sample size is too small. If I'm gonna mail bullets to somebody for testing I'd send at least 10-12 to get the sample size big enough to really mean something.

If that sounds funny, let me explain, for guys like me who didn't do well with statistics in school.

If you have a sample size of 3, and one of those 3 turns out a 'fluke' result, you test shows that 33% of the stuff tested is faulty. Okay - what if it IS a fluke?
You don't know if your fluke was the 1 in a thousand, or a truly representative case where 1 in 3 of ALL of 'em are bad.

If you test 10, and you find that fluke, your test says 10% of the product is faulty. But... did you get the 1 of 1000 that was bad in your sample?

That's the short story of the concept in statistics called 'degree of confidence.' Your samples start getting prety representative when you get your sample size around 50, so your margin of error drops way down.

I don't think we're talking big numbers here, though. I'd be pretty satisfied to see 10 rounds or so per bullet test.

Forgive me if I either bored or insulted any of you with the math. That wasn't the intention - I just figure if we did a test, it should be sort of meaningful, and really small samples can't do that.