A magnificent example of why not to use "liberal" as an attack/insult

[Field Tester]

Interesting. You can assume thought patterns.......wow.

Please bring it down a notch or two. Assuming I was talking to you seems odd. I was talking to anyone who just happens to be a Democrat, OK? If you are not a Democrat don't get your panties all bunched up. So sensitive. IF there happens to be any Democrats here and I don't want to assume that there are, a good goal would be to change the party platform. Just saying.

Uh no, it was definitely directed at somebody in this thread.
"You guys made your point on page one. Now go out and try to stop your party from attacking OUR 2nd Amendment rights. I'm done with this thread."

And you haven't addressed a single fact that we've refuted from your previous position that the Republican party is the champion for our Rights.
It seems neither party has our best interests at heart. This is evidenced by me several times pointing out the stance of Presidents and candidates.

Sam also pointed out the voting record on the Patriot Act USA.
Your preconceived notions might be a bit incorrect.

Sam,
Thank you for leaving this open to refute some of the claims made.

Everyone else, thank you for keeping it civil so we can have this discussion. I'm amazed we've gone this far without any serious personal attacks.

 

[OilyPablo]

Yes. Democrats. Your party. YOU personally? No. Democrats? YOUR party.

 

[jerkface11]

What exactly did Sam refute about the patriot act? The Democrats controlled the senate at the time if they had wanted to stop it they would have.

 

[OilyPablo]

....your previous position that the Republican party is the champion for our Rights.

When DID I state THAT?

 

[Theohazard]

Yes. Democrats. Your party. YOU personally? No. Democrats? YOUR party.

No. You don't get to pretend you meant something different. You clearly were targeting specific people in this thread when you said:

You guys made your point on page one. Now go out and try to stop your party from attacking OUR 2nd Amendment rights.

 

[Kynoch]

Yes. Democrats. Your party. YOU personally? No. Democrats? YOUR party.

LOL!! Now you're tap-dancing in circles because you've been caught. No one here identified with a party until I did in posting #164.

C'mon man! We can think faster then you can type!

 

[Field Tester]

When DID I state THAT?

Ugh, I can't do this anymore.
If you're going to consistently state things then deny them even though we're able to quote it, well I might as well go argue with the wall.
You have lost all credibility in this thread.
I would say quit while you're ahead, but...

 

[Theohazard]

What exactly did Sam refute about the patriot act? The Democrats controlled the senate at the time if they had wanted to stop it they would have.

You're missing the point. His point is that regardless of who was controlling Congress, only two Republicans in Congress voted against it, whereas 63 Democrats voted against it. And a Republican president signed it into law.

And the whole point of this is that BOTH parties have sold us out on civil liberties, whether it's the 4th Amendment or the 2nd.

 

[Kynoch]

There's simply no 2A benefit to offending others (no matter how they might vote) by the pejorative use of "liberal." Absolutely none.

Not using "liberal" as a pejorative to attack others does not mean one supports anti-2A politicians (of any party.) It also doesn't mean that we belong to a specific political party.

Some people here keep trying to sell those linkages and they're nothing but utter bunkum. Those that try also look like fools -- fools who endanger my RKBA.

 

[Sam Cade]

what party would walk up to you door, right now, and physically take your firearms if they could?

If they could?



Both of them.

 

[jerkface11]

Theohazard I must have missed the part where I said anything nice about the Republican Party other than them not having gun control as part of their platform.

 

[Field Tester]

What exactly did Sam refute about the patriot act? The Democrats controlled the senate at the time if they had wanted to stop it they would have.

Again, not the point. Keep trying to twist it into a strawman and we'll keep lighting it afire.
The point was that both political parties are damned when it comes to protecting our rights. They've both sold us out time and time again. 2nd or 4th, it doesn't matter.
Now do you see why we shouldn't use broad strokes to alienate a potential voter base?

If you don't then no one can help you.
I will however, continue to educate those opposed to the 2nd Amendment and all it stands for. And I'll be able to do this with my family, friends, coworkers and people I meet of the street because I won't write them off as a gun hating Democrats just because they support other "Liberal" causes.

 

[Kynoch]

if they could?

Both of them.

y e p !!!

 

[silicosys4]

What exactly did Sam refute about the patriot act? The Democrats controlled the senate at the time if they had wanted to stop it they would have.

The patriot attack was just as repugnant an attack on our rights and civil liberties as anything anti gun related that has occurred. There is no argument that it was invented and carried proudly by the republican faction of our governing body. The voting record reflects that.

There is no darling child here. Both parties are capable of committing grave injustices against this country. Neither is worthy of carrying the banner you assign....that of snowy pure champion of justice and liberty.

Edit: I'm watching a 9/11 special on 9/11.....so I'm feeling particularly ugly about the patriot act, how and why it was enacted, homeland defense, and the subsequent loss of liberties through that fiasco.
It was a huge failing of those who spearheaded it, and a blatant ratcheting of control on the American people.
It was also a very politically formative thing for me. I was 21, and had just voted for the first time for Bush based on the preposition that Republicans are indeed the champions of liberty and freedom.
That, and the gross mismanagement of the Iraq invasion, the incompetence, the blatant cronyism, nepotism, the fear based manipulation...

Now, exactly the same thing from the other side.

I'm a fiscally conservative, socially liberal independent pining away for an electable candidate, and for gun control to be in the "same category as segregation", which is a wonderful way to put it.

Until then I'll just have to keep making complicated decisions.

 

[Field Tester]

If they could?



Both of them.

QFT

 

[Nom de Forum]

For the record, since we are beginning to have a coming out party, I am registered as an Independent. I have not been registered as belonging to a political party for 38 years. When I did have a political party affiliation it was Libertarian. In fact I was a paying member of the American Libertarian Party, we had I.D. cards, magazines, meetings, and secret handshakes. O.K. I made up the part about secret handshakes. I would like to remind all that some of our most revered Founding Fathers were very much against the forming of political parties because of what they are now doing to this country. I don't think we can ever eliminate political parties but I do think we can greatly diminish their power if the majority of people register independent, vote for open primaries, and support moderate candidates that can compromise without fear of career ending retaliation from Party Bosses. I vote for Democrats and Republicans, and if a worthy Libertarian ever becomes a viable candidate perhaps will vote Libertarian. Meanwhile I do my best to not alienate my more left leaning friends and acquaintances so that they know they have nothing to fear from me having guns and the millions of other people like me.

 

[jerkface11]

You're trying to paint me as supporting the Republican Party while claiming that I'm making strawman arguments? I think you all heard someone use that term and latched onto it without understanding it.

 

[OilyPablo]

Ugh, I can't do this anymore.
If you're going to consistently state things then deny them even though we're able to quote it, well I might as well go argue with the wall.
You have lost all credibility in this thread.
I would say quit while you're ahead, but...

Wait, no you said "your previous position that the Republican party is the champion for our Rights."

Now you KNOW I didn't say that. You now must admit that I didn't say that.....and then you go on to say I have "lost all credibility in this thread"?

 

[Sam Cade]

Sam Cade:
Moderators on THR always appear to lock any threads which begin with politics, or become political, but this time a political remains open...only because some good points were made? Every thread has good points and can make somebody proud (not always a moderator).
Thread locks seem to be as arbitrary as where our two cats decide to take their long naps (excluding the kitchen rug).

This thread remains open because the politics associated with the RTKBA (and the 2nd amendment in the USA) is explicitly on topic for THR.

We even have a subforum for political activism:
http://www.thehighroad.org/forumdisplay.php?f=46

 

[Theohazard]

Theohazard I must have missed the part where I said anything nice about the Republican Party other than them not having gun control as part of their platform.

I never said you did, my friend. I'm simply replying to your posts. And in your posts, you appear to be repeatedly missing the point of this thread, so I'm simply trying to explain it to you.

 

[OilyPablo]

If they could?



Both of them.

Indeed. We ALL agree on this.

Is there a group of people in power who don't use that power for their own gain? It's human, it's natural, it's what it is. That is why our forefathers left us with the measly little Constitution and Bill of Rights. Not perfect, but nearly so.

I get passionate about these things. If there are Democrats here I apologize. If there are no Democrats here I apologize. Both parties have some learning to do about what real Real Rights are. Like the right to protect our families and our lives. These are given things.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Political Parties are about controlling power. Political parties will rationalize almost any means to maintain the control of power. It makes no difference if the Party is Republican or Democrat or Libertarian, if they fear losing control of power they will trample your rights to maintain it while telling you they are fighting to protect you.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Both parties have some learning to do about what real Real Rights are. Like the right to protect our families and our lives. These are given things.

Both Parties already know this, the disagreement is with the how. We cannot convince people who are uncertain or apathetic about the RKBA to remain so or move toward support if we alienate them. How many times does this have to be written by various people before the wisdom of this is acknowledged by everyone?

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

Are you saying you're still going to use the term "liberal"? That's fine, it's a completely valid term and it's certainly not an insult when applied accurately.

But if you're saying you're going to continue to use "liberal" to mean "anti-gun", then that's counterproductive, ignorant, and simply shows a total lack of political nuance.

Well then, to be clear. I'm going to continue to plant the anti gun flag in the liberal camp and continue to broadly assume that liberals are generally anti 2ndA and that most anti 2ndA folks are liberals.

I'll equate it to a favored lumping on the part of Liberals regarding conservatives: That Conservatives are against a woman's choice with regards to abortion. I'm happily identified as a Conservative and yet believe in a woman's choice in this matter - misguided or not - and am willing to take the heat for the Conservative position even though I generally do not agree with it.

Counterproductive? You're wrong, literally and factually as the word is misapplied.
Ignorant? Again, wrong as you don't know enough about me or my positions to state that. The height of ignorance, that.
Lack of political nuance? Political nuance is the stock in trade of liberals and progressives and I count myself happily among those without it.

Black is black, white is white and "liberals" own the anti gun title. Exceptions not only not withstanding but proving the rule.

 

[Kynoch]

Indeed. We ALL agree on this.

Is there a group of people in power who don't use that power for their own gain? It's human, it's natural, it's what it is. That is why our forefathers left us with the measly little Constitution and Bill of Rights. Not perfect, but nearly so.

I get passionate about these things. If there are Democrats here I apologize. If there are no Democrats here I apologize. Both parties have some learning to do about what real Real Rights are. Like the right to protect our families and our lives. These are given things.

Stop prevaricating. You had no idea about the political affiliations of those taking part in this thread yet you still popped-off. Now you're just going around in circles.