A New Handloading Setup, and Some Questions

[WolverineFury]

Howdy all. I'm hoping to get into handloading soon. The reason being, that I want to be able to train more. And after doing some research I've come up with a list of the products which I will need/want. I'm hoping to get some input and answers to some question from other reloaders before buying, so that hopefully I'll be able to avoid any unexpected expenses.

So here's the shopping list...

Lee 4 Hole Turret Press with Auto Index Value Kit. Included are-
Turret Press with Auto Index
Auto Disk Powder Measure
Safety Scale
Primer Pocket Cleaner, Cutter and Lock Stud and Chamfer Tools
-
Lee Carbide 3-Die Set 9mm Luger (question about this later)
Lyman "Reloading Handbook: 49th Edition
Lee Precision Auto Disk Riser
Frankford Arsenal Quick-N-Ez Impact Bullet Puller
6 Inch LCD Digital Caliper
Lee Precision Safety Primer Feed Large and Small
Components
And as far as cleaning goes. I plan on cleaning my brass with a home made tumbler, so I should be covered there.
-----
As far as I can tell this setup shouldn't cost more than ~$230 and is the best suited to my price range. If anyone can offer more economical options I'm all ears!

Now for the questions!
---
First off in your estimation are there any deficiencies in the above list?
Secondly, for $10 more I can get a 4 die set that includes a "Factory Crimp Die" which according to the description, "...is that final step to make sure each round with positively chamber freely with factory-like dependability." Could some of you explain what the die does (cause I have no clue), if you think it's necessary, etc..
Third, any recommendations as to what brand of components I should buy, and where I should buy them (hopefully cheap places to buy as well). I'm thinking that I'll buy the Powder and Primers from local gun shops (to avoid HAZMAT fee). Right now though, I've heard that Unique powder is a reputable brand, and I haven't heard anything bad about any name brand primers, so I reckon I'll go with whatever's cheapest unless I hear otherwise.
Three-point-five, What are your thoughts about Lead ammo vs FMJ? RMR has Lead bullets for half the price of the FMJ rounds, and while I wouldn't use them for Self Defense, for training and plinking they seem like a good idea.
And Finally, The 9mm I will be reloading for is a G17 Gen 3. I've heard that Glocks (though I think this mainly applies to .40s) may have a problem called a "Glock Smile" (if you could explain what this is and what causes it I'd appreciate it) and I've also heard that you shouldn't shoot lead ammo out of them. Any personal experience in this area would be greatly appreciated.

Many Thanks!
Emery

 

[ljnowell]

Dont buy the 4 die set, you dont need or want a FCD for 9mm, trust me. Buy the three die set and a second seat/crimp die. Set one up to seat, one to crimp. Honestly, I wish I would have bought a 3 hole turret. I can load 45acp, 9mm, etc seatingand crimping in one step and it would have made a lot less handle pulls per round. It is nice to be able to seat and crimp seperately though.

 

[cfullgraf]

In my opinion, the Lee handgun cartridge factory crimp die is a solution looking for a problem. There are a few uses for them but I have never found a need for them since they were introduced. But, others will differ in opinion.

I do taper crimp my auto pistol rounds in a separate step from bullet seating but it could be done while seating the bullet. Your 9x19 seater die will have a taper crimp ring machined into it.

The term "taper crimp" is a misnomer. It really just removes the belling of the case mouth that makes bullet seating easier. Case neck tension holds the bullet in place.

Start with simple components, 115 or 124 RN of some kind, cast or jacketed. They are not as expensive as self defense bullets when learning the ropes. Buy in bulk for savings.

At first, get components locally or at a gun show. You will not be buying in very large volume. A pound of powder will load close to 1000 rounds of 9x19.

Later, when you are a reloading junkie, you will have powder and primer orders of a size that will justify the HAZMAT fee.

Unique is a good powder but some folks find it troublesome for metering because of its flake formate. Fine grain or ball powder meters more easily. W231, HP-38, Accurate #5 and #7, or True Blue are some examples and will work with 9x19. Again, others will have their favorites as well.

Buy or borrow a copy of Lyman #49 first and it will help you with your shopping list.

Almost no one trims hand gun cases. Rifle cases are a different story, virtually everyone trims their rifle cases.

I did not hit all your questions but I hope it helps. I am sure others will chime in.

 

[WolverineFury]

Thanks very much both of you! I appreciate it!

 

[Sauer Grapes]

I would suggest looking at bullets and possible load data before buying powder. Components for your ammo is just a matter of preference. Some people like certain components over others.
You might want to look at copper plated bullets instead of jacketed heads for your Glock.

 

[HexHead]

I suggest getting a case gauge. I use one for every caliber I load. More convenient and precise than using your Glock's barrel for the "plunk" test. Especially with pistol ammo, I QC every round I load.

I like the 4-die set. Usually if a round doesn't seat fully in the case gauge, another pass through the FCD makes it drop right in.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I'm on the other end, I like crimping in a separate operation and I like the factory crimp die.

I highly suggest you trade in the Lee Auto-Disk for the PRO Auto-Disk. For a little more money you get a much better tool. The Pro uses bolts instead of screws to hold the hopper on. Since you have to remove the hopper every time you change a disk the hopper will soon wear out at the point where the screws secure it. The Pro also has a shut-off so you can remove the hopper without emptying it beforehand. The linkage is better too.

 

[WolverineFury]

"I suggest getting a case gauge. I use one for every caliber I load. More convenient and precise than using your Glock's barrel for the "plunk" test. Especially with pistol ammo, I QC every round I load. "

Isn't the case gauge to measure the overall length of the cartridge? It was my understanding that calipers accomplished the same goal.

 

[tyeo098]

"I suggest getting a case gauge. I use one for every caliber I load. More convenient and precise than using your Glock's barrel for the "plunk" test. Especially with pistol ammo, I QC every round I load. "

Isn't the case gauge to measure the overall length of the cartridge? It was my understanding that calipers accomplished the same goal.

Case gauge makes sure that the round will meet headspacing requirements (since 9mm HS off the case mouth) by making sure nothing gets in the way of the case mouth and the chamber mouth... like lead SWC bullets in my case.

At least, AFAIK...

 

[Ken70]

OP, is your turret press the cast iron one? Lee sells an aluminum turret as well. Get the cast iron one; catches spent primers and the whole tool is more substantial. Otherwise you got enough to get you started.

 

[WolverineFury]

I didn't know they made two different ones... All the ones I've seen have been advertised as the same. I'd have to guess that the one in my shopping cart is the aluminum one though.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

OP, is your turret press the cast iron one? Lee sells an aluminum turret as well. Get the cast iron one; catches spent primers and the whole tool is more substantial. Otherwise you got enough to get you started.

The "Deluxe" 4 Hole Turret Press is nowhere near as good as the cast iron "Classic" 4 Hole Turret Press. It's not only the base that's better but the linkage is much heavier and the ram is wider too. The Classic also handles spent primers much better than the standard press. I do not recommend the Deluxe press while I highly recommend the Classic press.

 

[cfullgraf]

"I suggest getting a case gauge. I use one for every caliber I load. More convenient and precise than using your Glock's barrel for the "plunk" test. Especially with pistol ammo, I QC every round I load. "

Isn't the case gauge to measure the overall length of the cartridge? It was my understanding that calipers accomplished the same goal.

You definitely need a caliper.

Cartridge overall length is not the same as case length. The cartridge over all length includes the bullet.

Case gauges are kind of a go, no-go gauge. They tell you a case is within spec but not really tell you what the actual measurement is.

Case gauges measure the case. Handgun cartridge and rifle cartridge gauges measure slightly different things, but cartridge related stuff just the same. Handgun gauges can substitute as chamber gauges while virtually all rifle case gauges on the market are not chamber gauges.

As far as case length, a caliper will work.

The barrel of your pistol can do the other comparisons with handgun cartridges. It is best to remove the barrel from your handgun for such measuring work.

Some folks swear by the case gauges, some don't. I have a few rifle cases gauges primarily for checking shoulder position but no handgun case gauges.

Hope this helps.

 

[Ken70]

The "Deluxe" 4 Hole Turret Press is nowhere near as good as the cast iron "Classic" 4 Hole Turret Press. It's not only the base that's better but the linkage is much heavier and the ram is wider too. The Classic also handles spent primers much better than the standard press. I do not recommend the Deluxe press while I highly recommend the Classic press.

I wish Lee would just call it "The Cast Iron Turret Press", instead of "Classic", which gives you no idea what you're buying. I have a lot of Lee stuff, and I can never keep it straight what they call the two turret presses.

 

[Springfield0612]

"And Finally, The 9mm I will be reloading for is a G17 Gen 3. I've heard that Glocks (though I think this mainly applies to .40s) may have a problem called a "Glock Smile" (if you could explain what this is and what causes it I'd appreciate it) and I've also heard that you shouldn't shoot lead ammo out of them. Any personal experience in this area would be greatly appreciated."

The Glock has an unsupported chamber. Meaning that when the round is chambered there is a gap that occurs on the bottom of the case towards the back of the brass. Once the round is fired the pressure follows the path of least resistence. When the brass is unsupported it bulges out. In the case of the Glock the location that the lack of support causes a bulge in the shape of a smile.
When this happens it causes the brass to stretch out, you then resize it during reloading which casues more weaking of the case wall, and then if you reload it to near maximum pressure and again shoot it out of an unsupported chamber, all that pressure and hot gas has to go somewhere. With a glock, that gas is going straight down into your magazine well, where there are many more loaded rounds of ammunition and could possibly detonate some or all. This issue applies to all Glocks not just the .40 S&W. You hear about it more with the .40 because it is more popular out of all the Glocks.
Go to youtube and search Glock Kaboom, or search this site as well. When you purchase brass that is range pickup or once fired most people will state if they suspect any Glock fired brass in the bunch as this is a fear for most people. I personally know 4 people who have had cases blow out in non-Glock platforms because they were using Glock fired brass. Luckily no Kabooms for all 4 people but they did have to either send their guns back to the factory for refurb and removal of the case or took it to the local gun smith for repair.
The other issue is that if you do not full length resize the brass the bulge may prohibit the round from fully chambering. Lee makes a Bulge Buster die, but again you are just weakening the brass.
I don't own a Glock, so from my understanding is that if you are not reloading to near maximum pressures you SHOULD be ok to reuse the brass. Luckily for you you can get 1000 9mm range pickup brass for about $40 if you look in the right places.
Using lead in a Glock is also frowned upon as the barrell design could cause excessive lead build up causing over pressure and then inturn blowing up your gun. Can it be done? Has it be done? Do people do it safely and successfully? YES!
The plus side to this is if you do shoot cast bullets you cannot reload them to the same speeds and presures as plated or jacketed rounds, which will cause less fatigue on the brass and bulging. Also shooting cast is cheaper.
Not to discourage you but it sounds like you went the hard route for your first time out! But it an and has been done. Be safe and be smart and you'll be successful. If you need some more reloading manual data send me a PM and I'll hook you up with a welcome present!

 

[Potatohead]

Being a noob like me, I'd opt for the FCD. I would suggest reading up a bit more before diving in. A few manuals and THR should do the trick. I dont know much but I do know this.
Also. I don't ever touch my case gauges. I would skip that.

its kind of crazy how many different answers these threads generate when we're all building the same thing.

 

[WolverineFury]

"its kind of crazy how many different answers these threads generate when we're all building the same thing."

HAHA! Agreed! But I suppose that's just life!

@Springfield
Thanks a ton for the info!

I did as you suggested and did a youtube search for the Glock KaBoom, and I found something interesting. Just looking over the titles of the first page. Every single listing was a Glock chambered in something other than 9mm. From what I'd read I gathered that the .40/10mm rounds where higher pressure, and thus more prone to failure? :/

 

[sexybeast]

First off I have been using a Lee Loadmaster for about ten years. I don't hate and not anti-Lee products. [although their customer service is terrible] But if you are only going to load one caliber I suggest the Dillon Square Deal in 9mm. You will have much less problems in the long run and the customer service is the best. Anything breaks and they will replace it FREE!
I load about ten different calibers and switching one to another is a snap with the Loadmaster, and once you get past the learning curve its actually a good press if you disregard the priming system. The turret and classic turret you will have to crank the handle 3-4 times to produce one round. With a progressive you crank once! I know and shoot with several people who shoot 10-15k rounds/yr and the dillon is all they could want. Check out and compare.
I have a Lee Turret, they are OK for beginners, but if you really get into this you won't be a beginner very long and you will wish you bought something more capable.

Edit 1: Just read springfields info on glocks. I shoot lead through my g17 and g22 every week with no problems. Its true with lead that you have to know what you are doing but that is true for ALL reloading. I watched a fellow shooter blow up two 1911's on the firing line during two matches. The were Springfield Range Officers. No one blamed the gun! Glocks have an un -supported chamber just like my 1911s, and my M&P's. Almost all have some of the chamber unsupported at the feedramp! The 40 is no worse than the 9. Much of this is internet hype! People who read more than they shoot.
Also GET A CASE GAUGE! If the completed round will drop into the gauge it will drop/feed into your barrel. Case gauges are almost always tighter than your chamber so with it you are playing it safe. I load and shoot 1k of lead rounds a month in different calibers, twice that much during the summer.
One of my rules with loading/shooting lead is that the minimum load for jacketed rounds is the maximum load for lead! Sometimes less. Lead is softer and lubed, it takes less energy to get it moving. And too much pressure will make it tumble.

 

[ljnowell]

The Glock has an unsupported chamber. Meaning that when the round is chambered there is a gap that occurs on the bottom of the case towards the back of the brass. Once the round is fired the pressure follows the path of least resistence. When the brass is unsupported it bulges out. In the case of the Glock the location that the lack of support causes a bulge in the shape of a smile.
When this happens it causes the brass to stretch out, you then resize it during reloading which casues more weaking of the case wall, and then if you reload it to near maximum pressure and again shoot it out of an unsupported chamber, all that pressure and hot gas has to go somewhere. With a glock, that gas is going straight down into your magazine well, where there are many more loaded rounds of ammunition and could possibly detonate some or all. This issue applies to all Glocks not just the .40 S&W. You hear about it more with the .40 because it is more popular out of all the Glocks.
Go to youtube and search Glock Kaboom, or search this site as well. When you purchase brass that is range pickup or once fired most people will state if they suspect any Glock fired brass in the bunch as this is a fear for most people. I personally know 4 people who have had cases blow out in non-Glock platforms because they were using Glock fired brass. Luckily no Kabooms for all 4 people but they did have to either send their guns back to the factory for refurb and removal of the case or took it to the local gun smith for repair.
The other issue is that if you do not full length resize the brass the bulge may prohibit the round from fully chambering. Lee makes a Bulge Buster die, but again you are just weakening the brass.
I don't own a Glock, so from my understanding is that if you are not reloading to near maximum pressures you SHOULD be ok to reuse the brass. Luckily for you you can get 1000 9mm range pickup brass for about $40 if you look in the right places.
Using lead in a Glock is also frowned upon as the barrell design could cause excessive lead build up causing over pressure and then inturn blowing up your gun. Can it be done? Has it be done? Do people do it safely and successfully? YES!
The plus side to this is if you do shoot cast bullets you cannot reload them to the same speeds and presures as plated or jacketed rounds, which will cause less fatigue on the brass and bulging. Also shooting cast is cheaper.
Not to discourage you but it sounds like you went the hard route for your first time out! But it an and has been done. Be safe and be smart and you'll be successful. If you need some more reloading manual data send me a PM and I'll hook you up with a welcome present!

There is so much wrong here it isnt funny. The Glock myth will never die and its usually repeated by someone that says "I dont own one, like bolded above.

Ignore the above quote OP and follow standard established reloading practices.

 

[WolverineFury]

If you're going to call someone else incompetent (or ignorant) the least you could do would be to offer a better explanation. Instead of just saying "ignore the above quote." All that does is leave me back where I started, and it doesn't come across as very polite either.

 

[GLOOB]

And Finally, The 9mm I will be reloading for is a G17 Gen 3. I've heard that Glocks (though I think this mainly applies to .40s) may have a problem called a "Glock Smile" (if you could explain what this is and what causes it I'd appreciate it) and I've also heard that you shouldn't shoot lead ammo out of them. Any personal experience in this area would be greatly appreciated.

The early model Glock 40s are the ones with this problem.

As for lead, my experience with Glock is they shoot cast bullets better than guns with standard rifling... when you do things right. BUT with the caveat that when you don't get things right, they foul much faster, to the point of being potentially dangerous.

Now here's another caveat. The majority of Glocks out there are in 9mm. And 9mm is a quirky cartridge for cast bullets. When you seat a cast bullet into a sized 9mm case, it can be deformed by the case. So be sure to pull your first few rounds to measure the base of the bullet. The problem is the sizing die pushes the case in too far where the bullet seats; the solution is to buy a better expander, such as the Lyman M die. Because of these two factors, Glocks got a pretty bad reputation for blowing up when shooting lead.

I've been shooting lead out of my 45ACP Glock 21 for awhile now. Accuracy is superb, and I have never had to clean out lead fouling, ever. I have shot close to 2k cast bullets through my 9mm Glocks, and it was a learning experience. After modifying the expander die, I now have similar results as with the 45ACP. Good accuracy and super, super clean barrels.

The thing with smooth polygonal the Glock barrels, when you get the load dialed in, and you run a brush through them once in a while to keep the bores clean, they don't pick up ANY lead fouling. My standard button cut barrels always pick up a little.

 

[sexybeast]

The early model Glock 40s are the ones with this problem.

As for lead, my experience with Glock is they shoot cast bullets better than guns with standard rifling... when you do things right. BUT with the caveat that when you don't get things right, they foul much faster, to the point of being potentially dangerous.

Now here's another caveat. The majority of Glocks out there are in 9mm. And 9mm is a quirky cartridge for cast bullets. When you seat a cast bullet into a sized 9mm case, it can be deformed by the case. So be sure to pull your first few rounds to measure the base of the bullet. The problem is the sizing die pushes the case in too far where the bullet seats; the solution is to buy a better expander, such as the Lyman M die. Because of these two factors, Glocks got a pretty bad reputation for blowing up when shooting lead.

I've been shooting lead out of my 45ACP Glock 21 for awhile now. Accuracy is superb, and I have never had to clean out lead fouling, ever. I have shot close to 2k cast bullets through my 9mm Glocks, and it was a learning experience. After modifying the expander die, I now have similar results as with the 45ACP. Good accuracy and super, super clean barrels.

The thing with smooth polygonal the Glock barrels, when you get the load dialed in, and you run a brush through them once in a while to keep the bores clean, they don't pick up ANY lead fouling. My standard button cut barrels always pick up a little

I agree with most of this. My g17 was made in 1989 and my g22 in 1996 and I don't have this problem. My g22 does have a "loose' chamber though. I also completly agree that shooting 9mm lead accuratly out of any gun is more challenging than FMJ. After at least 25k 9mm lead rounds I still consider myself "always learning". I'll be shooting 200+ rounds tonight through my G17 at a match, I completely clean the gun every 2500 rounds and clean the barrel after two matches/500rds. Glocks like to be run dry and dirty. They are called tupperward guns but I have never tested to see if they are "dishwasher safe"
My personal opinion of glocks "blowing up" when shooting lead is some people casting their own and shooting them un-lubed or undersized. My 1911 and M&P leads up more than any of my glock barrels
Back to your question about equipment I suggest looking at demonstrations on U-Tube and see just how they operate. Looking back I wish I had bought a Dillon sometimes. If I loaded only one caliber I still would buy a Square Deal.

 

[ljnowell]

If you're going to call someone else incompetent (or ignorant) the least you could do would be to offer a better explanation. Instead of just saying "ignore the above quote." All that does is leave me back where I started, and it doesn't come across as very polite either.

I am not calling anyone ignorant or incompetent, simply wrong. The unsupported case issue was with early 40 S&W. All of the earlier guns had less support than the later ones, but it wasnt an issue with standard pressure loads in anything but 40S&W. The "newer" ones dont have these problems. Many of the "KBs" you hear of with lead were caused by out of battery firings. The earlier glocks would fire a very good amount out of battery. The lead would build up at the start of the chamber and eventually the gun wouldnt return to battery and people would have a case blow out.

As far as with the statement that "with a glock that pressure goes out the magwell setting off other rounds, etc" that happens with any handgun that has a case failure. Nothing special with glocks.

I also take point with "4 people I know had case failures in non glocks because of glock brass." Bunk. If the case failed it meant it was unsupported in that area, so it would be no different whether the brass was previously fired in a glock or not, the gun that it failed in was unsupported, otherwise it wouldnt blow out! If you have to have the gun sent off to have the case extracted, it was NOT a case failure from weak brass! Thats a load that was grossly overpressure! Fear not, we can blame it on a Glock, its much easier than accepting blame for our own poor reloading practice! It COULDNT have been a double charge, it HAD to be glocked brass!

So, there you go.

 

[WolverineFury]

Thanks! That gives me something I can work with!

 

[gibekim]

I'm staying out of this one.

Just a note of reference. No one makes a bulge buster for 9mm. As we all know, it is a tapered case. Bulge busters are for straight walled cases. I've read other posts where some use the factory crimp die for removing form fired bulges from unsupported chambers. It supposedly re-sizes the case as it crimps.