A note from FN on dry firing your handgun....

[Hokkmike]

Only just slightly cryptic here is a response I got from FN America inquiring about dry firing my new FN semi auto....

Hi Mike,

Thank you for contacting FN America.

Generally, dry firing is safe as long as it is not done in excess. With that being said, we do not recommend you dry fire your Five-seveN regularly and use caution when you do.

Best regards,
Customer Service
FN America, LLC

My understanding of dry firing before this was that it would, no matter how much you did it, cause no harm to a modern handgun. I know FN's concern is, from their literature, that a trigger not actually be pulled except while shooting to prevent risk of AD.

Just thought I'd share it to expand our collective knowledge.
By the way, I find the quality of the FN gun to be top notch.

 

[redbullitt]

Not a fan of that news. I would try to find out what the specific problem is.

As in when you dry fire an encore or contender it messes up a little spring under the hammer. Not a fan of just being told not to... need some "why" in there in this case.

Very possible it is lawyer junk to keep you from accidentally wet firing through your tv...

 

[tarosean]

My understanding of dry firing before this was that it would, no matter how much you did it, cause no harm to a modern handgun.

You will eventually break trigger return springs no matter how "modern" the gun is.

Buy some of those spring looked snap caps if you're worried about it. Otherwise I'd continue dry firing..

 

[Mizar]

You will eventually break trigger return springs no matter how "modern" the gun is.

Buy some of those spring looked snap caps if you're worried about it. Otherwise I'd continue dry firing..

What does the trigger return spring has to do with the firing pin? The firing pin spring gets fully compressed when dry firing.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

My understanding of dry firing before this was that it would, no matter how much you did it, cause no harm to a modern handgun. I know FN's concern is, from their literature, that a trigger not actually be pulled except while shooting to prevent risk of AD.

That's generally true of most CENTERFIRE handguns, but not most RIMFIRE guns. And it depends entirely on the design (in either case). Some rimfire guns have firing pin stops that keeps the firing pin from hitting the edge of the chamber and damaging the chamber. A centerfire Beretta Tomcat, at least the early ones, would eat the firing pin if you dry fired a lot. (That firing pin hit so hard that it would eat up snap caps, too.) CZ "B" models for the first 10 years or so after they were introduced were best dry-fired only with snap caps, and CZ would include a cheap one with the gun. (That gun used a roll pin rather than a firing pin stop to retain the firing pin, and the roll pin could (not WOULD) break. CZ later changed that part of the design.

IF FNH says don't do it, get a snap cap (maybe an A-Zoom) and only dry-fire extensively when using the snap cap.

You will eventually break trigger return springs no matter how "modern" the gun is.

Due to dry firing!?

Woudn't that require that the trigger return spring KNOW that a round is chambered when that trigger is pulled? Why would dry firing put more strain on a return spring than live firing?

What is usually damaged is something else -- like the firing pin (in a CZ-52), a retaining pin, or the edge of a rim-fire chamber. It's seldom the trigger return spring. (The only time I've ever had a trigger return spring break was with a Glock that I never dry-fired.)

 

[Sunray]

"...FN's concern is..." CYAing themselves mostly from frivolous law suits. Costs money even when you win. Same idea as telling you using reloaded ammo voids the warrantee.

 

[tarosean]

Why would dry firing put more strain on a return spring than live firing?

It doesn't. Course I'm not talking about sitting around in your undies pulling the trigger once in a while either..
Most people who dry fire for training purposes do so at substantial ratios to live fire. I probably average a 200:1 ratio and I'm not hardcore like a lot of people.

 

[Mizar]

OK, Tarosean - then how does dry fire differs from live fire concerning the trigger spring and how a snap cap could prevent said spring from breaking? Except that 200:1 ratio that you talk about and I don't buy.

On many guns with inertial firing pins the only thing that stops FP forward travel is it's spring. When dry firing that spring gets fully compressed and with time it can bend, brake, or coils can bind. Use snap caps, or even fired cases - cheap insurance. That is for central firing cartridges, for rimfire any well designed firearm prevents the firing pin from contacting the chamber.

 

[Dog Soldier]

The Milsurp CZ 52 pistols with original firing pins can fail. These gun can break the original firing pins dry firing. I have never known dry firing was a problem with modern handguns. Do you suspect FN is doing a "CYA"?

 

[tarosean]

then how does dry fire differs from live fire concerning the trigger spring and how a snap cap could prevent said spring from breaking?

i reread what I wrote.. I guess it was a little confusing..

I was just trying to state you can still break parts in modern guns dry firing.

Then I was telling him to pick up some snap caps for insurance, just in case it was an FN specific thing... not that it had anything to do with the previous statement.

 

[Havok7416]

i reread what I wrote.. I guess it was a little confusing..

I was just trying to state you can still break parts in modern guns dry firing.

Then I was telling him to pick up some snap caps for insurance, just in case it was an FN specific thing... not that it had anything to do with the previous statement.

Do they even make 5.7x28 snap caps?

 

[Dog Soldier]

You can decap a 5.7 case. Just fill the primer pocket with an epoxy resin.

 

[Havok7416]

Yes, I'm aware you can make one. The point of the previous conversation was buying one. Since not everyone reloads, making one isn't always in the cards.

 

[DrDeFab]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=5.7+snap+cap

 

[redneck]

I think what most folks don't think about and maybe what tarosean is trying to get at is that you are using moving parts when you dry fire and they will wear accordingly. You can't figure your maintenance routine based on 3000 rounds of live ammo, if the gun has also been dry fired 9000 times in that same time period. Its not the same as firing live ammo, but its still wear and tear compared to sitting in the safe.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I understand tarosean's point -- but trigger return springs are generally not prone to breakage, whether dry-fired or live-fired. It may be one of the longest-lived springs on most guns.

Spring won't really wear out from being compressed unless, WHEN COMPRESSED, they are pushed to their design limits. Most coil springs aren't compressed that far.. If they are compressed that far, the more often they're compressed to that danger zone or the longer they're kept at that level of compression (as with a slide locked back, or a hi-cap mag stored while fully loaded), the compression can have a very negative effect on the spring.

This over-compression is sometimes done by design -- it's the only way to get a small gun to function properly, and to get more rounds in a space originally designed for fewer rounds. Those springs can be compromised by deep compression. Some designers seem to view springs as renewable resources, and most of us will gladly replace the springs a bit more often if we can carry an extra round or three -- or if the gun is now small enough to fit in a pocket.

Trigger return springs seldom have to be reduced in size or still function the same while being fit into smaller areas like recoil or mag springs.

tarosean's point that dry-firing will add some extra wear is certainly valid, but I'd be willing to bet that darned few people have ever seen a trigger return spring fail. (I know it happened to some CZ owners 8-9 years ago, when I was a moderator on the CZ Forum, and it became obvious that CZ got in a batch of springs at the factory. I had a Glock trigger return spring [used gun with high mileage Glock 17] fail. That's all the failures I've heard about in 20+ years participating in gun forums on the 'net.

 

[SwampWolf]

Taurus warns owners not to dry-fire some of their revolvers. Other than CYA, I have no idea what their reasoning is.

 

[Mizar]

Walt, Tarosean makes an excellent point, because dry firing "aficionados" do induce stress to some of the springs way more than with live fire. And every spring will suffer from metal fatigue soon or later. And it can (and will) break. Every spring has a life span, but this does not mean that it will break at 5000, or 10 000 mark - it depends on design, care and etc. It is a rare occurrence, but it can happen.

Some designers seem to view springs as renewable resources, and most of us will gladly replace the springs a bit more often if we can carry an extra round or three -- or if the gun is now small enough to fit in a pocket.

No, thank you, this is the exact reason I strongly dislike full power sub-compact pistols - too much dependability on springs to function right.

 

[ATLDave]

I'd be willing to bet that darned few people have ever seen a trigger return spring fail. (I know it happened to some CZ owners 8-9 years ago, when I was a moderator on the CZ Forum, and it became obvious that CZ got in a batch of springs at the factory. I had a Glock trigger return spring [used gun with high mileage Glock 17] fail. That's all the failures I've heard about in 20+ years participating in gun forums on the 'net.

You can add me to your short tally! I had a trigger return spring on a Tanfoglio break on me during a match last year! I promptly went over to an aftermarket trigger system that has a completely different trigger return design that places a lot less stress on the spring. I think if a spring is highly tensioned in its "resting" installed state, it's probably a candidate to eventually break or otherwise fail. But I'm no mechanical engineer.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Walt, Tarosean makes an excellent point, because dry firing "aficionados" do induce stress to some of the springs way more than with live fire.

No more stress than would be the case with the same number of trigger pulls done via live fire. And stress may not be the appropriate term. It becomes stress only if the design of the spring allows it to be pushed too far. Most springs aren't pushed too far. I agree with tarosean that dry-firing causes stress on the trigger return spring, but its apparently not a great deal of stress with most guns. (How many examples of broken or failed trigger return springs have you experienced or personally know about?)

And every spring will suffer from metal fatigue soon or later. And it can (and will) break. Every spring has a life span, but this does not mean that it will break at 5000, or 10 000 mark - it depends on design, care and etc. It is a rare occurrence, but it can happen.

Not entirely correct. It's not that simple.

Every spring that is used will suffer from some reduction in its ability to work over time -- but that does not mean that every spring that suffers from that sort of deterioration will break or stop functioning as it should. It may just NOT perform as well as it did when it was new, but it may still keep on functioning so that you don't really know the difference.

Tappet springs in most auto engines will outlast the rest of the engine -- even though they've cycled many, many millions of time over their work life. While every spring may truly have a life span, that span does not necessarily end with the spring's failure or breakage. It may, instead, end when the machine in which it works breaks down for other reasons (as in a thrown rod in a car engine) or is put to rest (ala an auto junk yard, a gun buyback program, or when the gun isn't maintained and rusts away, etc.)

Most COIL springs in guns don't break -- they lose structural integrity from countless micro-fractures within the material when they're compressed too far. Many coil springs are never compressed too far.. Coil springs spread the work through much of the spring body, unlike other springs. Most often, they fail by becoming soft and being unable to do the work. Flat springs will break, but they'll also sag. It's only with the weakness (due to OVERWORK -- pushing the spring beyond its elastic limit) causes the spring to prevent proper function that you even notice the problem.

A trigger return spring isn't a coil spring, even though it is coiled -- It works more like a long flat spring that has been wrapped around a fixed bar. I suspect more of that type of spring's material is working than is the case with some flat springs. If a trigger return spring gets pushed past it's elastic limit (the point beyond which it starts to deteriorate) it may break, or it might deteriorate just enough that it can no longer return the trigger to its forward position.

Gun designers have no need to put a trigger return spring in that part of the gun that is too small or made of too-little material, as is the case with the recoil springs in a very small semi-auto or the magazine springs in a very hi-cap mag. They can easily design longer-lived trigger return springs without having to compromise their size or materials. Except for special needs, like very small guns or very high capacity magazines, most gun designer don't need to build a gun that "uses up" it's springs!

No, thank you, this is the exact reason I strongly dislike full power sub-compact pistols - too much dependability on springs to function right.

I understand. That's a reasonable point of view. I suspect that also means you're not a good candidate for one of the Rohrbaugh R9s, then. That may be the smallest 9mm semi-auto you can find!

That gun's recoil spring has a recommended service life of 250 rounds. That small spring has to fit in a very small area, and has to do the work normally done by a larger springs that fits in a larger area; to do the job, that spring has to be pushed to or beyond it's elastic limit. When those springs fail, they don't typically break, but they do lose the ability to chamber the next round.

Happily for the people who own them, those small 9mm guns are well made, the springs are cheap, and the guns go inconspicuously into places (like front pockets) where no other 9mm guns can go. They are dependable as long as the owner replaces the recoil springs frequently, and keeps good round counts. (Those springs will actually perform beyond 250 rounds, but these higher-round-count recoil springs are best used at the range, if the owner ever wants to practice with that small gun! I doubt that I'd practice much with one of those small sludge hammers!)

 

[Walt Sherrill]

You can add me to your short tally! I had a trigger return spring on a Tanfoglio break on me during a match last year! I promptly went over to an aftermarket trigger system that has a completely different trigger return design that places a lot less stress on the spring. I think if a spring is highly tensioned in its "resting" installed state, it's probably a candidate to eventually break or otherwise fail. But I'm no mechanical engineer

The worst place (other than a real-world self-defense situation) for a spring to fail! Sounds as though you did a good job of finding a better replacement. (I wonder if Tanfoglio got their springs from the same place CZ got their springs!)

 

[Coyote3855]

tarosean's point that dry-firing will add some extra wear is certainly valid, but I'd be willing to bet that darned few people have ever seen a trigger return spring fail. (I know it happened to some CZ owners 8-9 years ago, when I was a moderator on the CZ Forum, and it became obvious that CZ got in a batch of springs at the factory. I had a Glock trigger return spring [used gun with high mileage Glock 17] fail. That's all the failures I've heard about in 20+ years participating in gun forums on the 'net.

I broke a trigger return spring dry firing a brand new, as in last month brand new, CZ PO-1. So they haven't got that issue ironed out just yet. Incidentally I was dry firing with a new snap cap and a rubber o ring between the hammer and the breech face. The dry firing was also apparently responsible for failure of the firing pin retaining pin, which allowed the firing pin and firing pin block to depart the pistol during live fire.

When shooting IPSC, I dry fired my 1911 thousands of times with no parts failure.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I broke a trigger return spring dry firing a brand new, as in last month brand new, CZ PO-1. So they haven't got that issue ironed out just yet. Incidentally I was dry firing with a new snap cap and a rubber o ring between the hammer and the breech face. The dry firing was also apparently responsible for failure of the firing pin retaining pin, which allowed the firing pin and firing pin block to depart the pistol during live fire.

Check the DATE on your P-01. (That's usually found in the little oval near the ejection port on most CZs.) Your P-01 may be older (new old stock), or it would have the doubled (a second roll pin inside the larger roll pin) firing pin retention roll pin. (A NATO number on the gun would indicate it's older, too. They no longer do that.) It's been several years since CZ started doubling the roll pins.

I've never heard of a "doubled" firing pin retention roll pin breaking. You can pick up a roll pin at your local hardware store and replace it yourself. Cost is less than a dollar. Cut to length with a Dremel. Don't know if they'll have one small enough in diameter so that you can double yours.

The O-ring should have protected the firing pin retention roll pin, and should have made the snap cap unnecessary -- but wouldn't have any effect on a defective trigger return spring. Most of the problems seemed to have been with the compact models.

(I know they went the route of the firing pin retention roll pin, rather than a firing pin stop plate, to simplify production, but I've never really liked that approach. Ditto their firing pin block design. The Tanfoglio version of the FPB is better and doesn't have any noticeable effect on the trigger pull.

 

[Mizar]

Walt, I understand your point and I do agree with you. I do exaggerated my statement about springs - lets say that breakages may happen and I will explain why. In an ideal situation a well designed spring will perform just as you describe, but in handguns that is not always the case - you have limited space, you have very often requirements that are contradicting each other... You have to make compromises again and again. Some springs are of good design - like Sig P series trigger springs, some not so good - CZ pistols and clones... Very often you are pushing that spring past it's limits just because you have no other option for the system to work. Just to make a point, without bashing on any particular gun because we have here some very touchy fanboys - Glock up to gen 3 and S&W CS series used flat wire recoil springs because of limited space. In the case of G17 one can get away with traditional round wire spring, but the engineers decided to go with the flat design. Those springs have a well documented history of breaking - very rare occurrence, yes, but it does happen. So, here you have a perfect example of compromise due to limited space. And I believe that recoil springs breaking was one of the reasons for Glock to come up with an entirely new recoil spring design in gen. 4 guns. Dry firing was mentioned because you can make much more cycles to the system for a short time than live fire - just think how long will it take you to shoot 5000 rounds, and compare it to the time needed to do 5000 dry firing cycles. It takes way less time, so you tend to cycle the gun more. And if you have a gun, especially a DA type pistol where the trigger return spring must do a lot of work, you may encounter problems just because you pushed that spring too far with thousands upon thousands of dry firing cycles. And frankly, on many guns that are not so widespread we just don't have the empirical data to safely say: yes, that gun is 100% trouble free in every aspect, so many people tend to be on the safe side with precautions.

Happily for the people who own them, those small 9mm guns are well made, the springs are cheap, and the guns go inconspicuously into places (like front pockets) where no other 9mm guns can go. They are dependable as long as the owner replaces the recoil springs frequently, and keeps good round counts...

In general the sub-compacts, by the nature of design, must work with limited space, limited slide travel, reduced slide and frame weight... That makes them way more picky about ammo than a full sized pistol. Good fresh springs alone cannot guarantee that the guns will work reliably, especially when we have a locked breech design with 9x19 and bigger ammo. This is the main reason why gun manufacturers refused to make full powered sub-compacts for a long time - not because they did no know how to make one, but because they knew a thing or two that we tend to forget today. For many years the golden rule was: reduce ammo size with the same rate as the gun size. Use simpler designs - like fixed barrel simple blowback, that requires less space to operate. That way you can guarantee yourself a more or less trouble free gun. Today we ask for a sub-compact, capable of firing a .45 ACP round, that can withstand thousands and thousands of rounds without parts breaking and we act surprised when the said gun does not meet our expectations.

Expecting comments like: "My (random brand here) is trouble free from day one and it shoots straight even when loaded with empty cases" in three, two...

 

[Hokkmike]

The spring discussion is a revelation to me. Thanks for this line of discussion.