A proxy for determining adrenaline effect on accuracy?

[Bartholomew Roberts]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/08/nyregion/08nypd.html?pagewanted

I came across this New York Times article detailing 11 years of research into NYPD shooting incidents from 1996-2006. One of the statistics the article notes is that in gunfights, NYPD officers hit their targets anywhere at all roughly 34% of the time. However, when firing at dogs (a smaller, faster target in general), NYPD officers hit about 55% of the time.

SInce the NYPD report includes officers who committed suicide in the "hit ratio" calculation, the 34% number is actually skewed somewhat higher. The newspaper article notes that LAPD, who apparently does not do this, is in the 27-31% range.

So we basically have a sudden accuracy increase of around 21-28% when shooting at a smaller, faster target. While there are several reasons that might explain why the NYPD has a better hit ratio on dogs, one that occurred to me is that a dog isn't shooting back and even if attacking is less likely to be lethal than a handgun - so in some sense, the difference might account for the effect of adrenaline in a life or death struggle.

Any thoughts?

 

[Kleanbore]

Link?

 

[BADUNAME37]

I know adrenaline affects certain of my shots.
It all depends on the circumstances of what it is I am shooting and how anxious I feel about the outcome.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Do we have documentation of how often the shooter and target were still when the shot was fired for canine attackers, and how often that was the case for human attackers? And the range? People can have guns, but dogs carry "contact weapons" only; so the average distance of the shot might be less for dogs.

It strikes me that many a dog might be stupid enough to just stare at a human pointing a gun at them, or actually close distance. Not many humans will do that. Further, if a human is standing still (and not armed with a gun), that may be good reason not to shoot him; a viscious dog standing still, however, is a "moment of opportunity"--like a hunting shot.

 

[kayak-man]

Just my $.02:

There are three potential variables here: What the LEO was called out too, the target, and the effects of adrenaline. From here on out, everything I say is conjecture and half remembered bio lectures (maybe,) not actual scientific research.

1- The dispatch: I'd imagine that getting called out for a wild dog is different than getting dispatched to a bank robbery or domestic violence. You're probably not going to be as pumped up for the dog, so the lower heart rate may have a marginal effect on accuracy. Probably not going to make that much of a difference, but its probably easier to mentally prepare for a feral dog than it is a violent felon. I'd imagine that its also easier to pull the trigger on a dog than it is a human.

2 - The Target. Humans are bigger (usually) and not as fast. Humans also have an understanding of cover and concealment, and may use others as a shield. Just because the human is a bigger target, doesn't mean that target is always going to be one hundred percent exposed. Dogs really don't understand the concept of gunfighting, and you don't need to worry about a golden retriever taking cover behind a dumpster and firing blindly. Its usually to shoot when your not shooting from behind or around something, so chances are, the dog may very well be an easier target to hit. Think of it this way: would you feel more confident trying to shoot a clay pigeon moving in a straight line towards you (think from the "low house" when your at station 1 on the skeet field), or a shooting at an IPSC silhouette target while leaning around a barricade, shooting from the support side?

3 - Adrenaline. I think this is one of the biggest factors. Obviously, your probably going to have more adrenaline and testosterone flooding your body when you're being shot at, than when you've got your Aticus Finch hat on and your starring at a rabid K9.
The question is, how does adrenaline affect accuracy? Most people say that its going to be a negative: You're going to be shaking a little, your heart rate through the roof, and fine motor skills will probably go down.

Or maybe, just maybe, the adrenaline helps you focus. Maybe that's when you can't see anything except a razor sharp front sight and a blurred silhouette. Maybe that's when you don't even remember flipping off the safety, or reaching for the spare mag.

I've felt adrenaline do both things.

Personally, I think that you can learn to use it. I don't know if its sport specific, if being able to handle the hormone dump while surfing makes it easier to use it doing anything else, but I figure driving on ice, mountain biking, and climbing ladders can't hurt my shooting abilities.

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson

 

[Trebor]

Considering the trend in law enforcement seems to be "always shoot the dog" I'm very, very, skeptical of any "hit ratio analysis" of dogs shots by LEO's. How many were attacking the officer and were a harder target and how many were completely non-threatening and shot anyway?

This is not intended to LEO bash, but I believe there is something to the "cops shoot dogs even when they don't have to" idea based on the numerous news reports of cops shooting family dogs across the country. That's why I question the validity of your premise.

 

[lemaymiami]

There's a world of difference in practice shooting and doing it in real life/real time when nothing's ever clear cut and your heart has somehow moved from your chest all the way up into your throat.... The best analogy I can provide is to run on foot through a six lane highway in traffic, climb over several fences and then try to even hit a target at all.... and I'm only talking about a paper target, not one that's trying to kill you.

One other thought you might want to consider... comparing dog shootings to people shootings just isn't possible since there's more than a few dogs that are shot as part of a hazardous warrant service. I know, since we used to actually designate an officer who's job it was to take out the dog.... No, I'm not talking about a "dangerous animal call" - I'm talking about criminal operators who deliberately protect their premises with dogs that you must deal with before the owner can destroy evidence or mount a counter assault... The sad part is that most of the officers on our team were dog owners and didn't really want to be in the dog-killing business - but in some circumstances it was absolutely necessary (south Florida, 1973 - 1995). I doubt that the statistics cited compiled separately from situations where deliberate criminal strategy required that the dog or dogs be dealt with in short, brutal fashion. That alone might account for the apparent differences in the stats being cited.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Considering the trend in law enforcement seems to be "always shoot the dog" I'm very, very, skeptical of any "hit ratio analysis" of dogs shots by LEO's. How many were attacking the officer and were a harder target and how many were completely non-threatening and shot anyway?

This is not intended to LEO bash, but I believe there is something to the "cops shoot dogs even when they don't have to" idea based on the numerous news reports of cops shooting family dogs across the country. That's why I question the validity of your premise.

Maybe.

Basing the real frequency of something on how often it it reported in the news media is gonna be wrong roughly 100% of the time. The media can take something that happens once a decade and make it seem like it happens every ten minutes, and vice versa. So if you're only reason for thinking this is news reports...you don't really have a reason at all. Just saying.

However, you may still be right. Dogs are just property, like a door or window. And I can see where it would be reasonable to remove the threat of a dog just in case it might be a problem, much like battering down a door when it may be unlocked.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Knew a cop, who as a LAPD officer was decorated after being in a number of shoot-outs, including one where he shot a hostage taker (He was decorated a 'Top Cop' actually)

Training gets you over the hump, practice and experience makes it routine (as in NO hump)

He was a Medic, after returning to the army, he would grill and drill us, in Trauma Medicine there is the 'Oh S***' factor, when you walk up on a GSW (or run through a hail of bullets to get to the guy calling "medic") or an accident where you have to save someone who's basically a pancake at that moment. The training is to get past this, to say, OK this is what this is, this is what I need to do. He was the HARDEST trainer I had, period, he wasn't concerned that you did it perfect, but that you DID IT, he was trying to train us past the hump.


Who would you lay odds on in a Gun Fight, a special forces soldier, combat veteran, or a 30 year cop. I put my money on the soldier, he was been trained, repeatedly, to identify the situation, orientate and react, the SF guy's reaction will be VASTLY different than even an infantry soldier (well, there is a learning curve that the infantry can make up by experience where the SF is trained up to that level)

Police don't usually walk into a situation saying 'who do I shoot'
and when they do - the dog calls, you see the difference.

What does this mean for you? you MUST at least train yourself to Identify the 'problem' and have PLANNED and trained reactions, repeat your draw strokes until you can get your gun into your hand by just thinking, 'I need to shoot that'

But mostly, understand the hump, the adrenalin hit, use it, and DON'T let it catch you, this is where people running around USELESSLY in a panic yelling what the should be doing comes from. In the EMT world they have a saying "Check your pulse first" - as in , if you are as panicked as the patient you are useless to the patient.

You can train yourself NOT to panic, and the most important way to do that is to train yourself to identify WHAT is happening, EMT's do this by MOI - mode of injury, ie. Multiple-vehicle accident, then look at what happened to EACH vehicle. What is important is that there is a preplanned sequence and branching actions. You hit the hump, you don't know what to do, you have a default action to perform that gets you to the next step.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Oh, and adrenalin tends to wash out or amplify emotion in my experience.

 

[SabbathWolf]

Considering the trend in law enforcement seems to be "always shoot the dog" I'm very, very, skeptical of any "hit ratio analysis" of dogs shots by LEO's. How many were attacking the officer and were a harder target and how many were completely non-threatening and shot anyway?

This is not intended to LEO bash, but I believe there is something to the "cops shoot dogs even when they don't have to" idea based on the numerous news reports of cops shooting family dogs across the country. That's why I question the validity of your premise.

This is the very first thing that crossed my mind too. A lot of people are just flat out scared to death of dogs and/or getting bit or mauled. I don't see how just being a LEO would change this at all. LEOs are just people too.

In fact, I've seen mailmen, paperboys, door-to-door salesmen, animal control guys, and believe it or not, yes, even "Veterinarians!" totally freak the hell out and waaaaaay over-react around certain dogs for no real justifiable reason at all.

Speaking of the "news," ... I also tend to blame them (the media) for this too in no small part. It doesn't help matters at all what so ever, when Fluffy the Poodle down the street nips a neighborhood kid on the ankle for pulling its tail, throwing rocks at it, or teasing it through a fence with a stick.....and then the "news" turns it into something like "MAN-EATING VICIOUS RABID DOG ATTACKS INNOCENT CHILD WITH INTENT TO KILL" or some crazy thing like that every other week either! Frickin' retards...


So yes, I would have to agree that cops probably "do" shoot waaaaay more dogs than there was EVER an actual "true" need for. And I'll bet a whole lot of the other types of people on my example list would too..."if" they also carried guns every day as part of their work attire.

So in short, I agree with you 100%

I'm pretty reasonably sure that those "ratios" are quite skewed most likely.
And like already mentioned as well, dogs aren't shooting back at you either...so they are easier to hit.

 

[Doghandler]

Dogs adrenaline and leadership

We measure and judge the behavior of dogs every day. These tests are more of a measure of the man behind the leash, the man behind the whistle --- or lack there of --- than a measure of the dog --- or not. We measure the effects of adrenaline in ICUs, neuro and cardiovascular labs, psychology labs, caffeine powered work places, around the world every day.

Several years ago, in our small town, the police chief was fired for dispatching an aggressive dog through a chain link fence. As it turned out the property occupied by the dog was not suspect in the the chief's early morning investigation. This was just icing on the cake for a city council and citizenship that was fed up with the chief's poor communication skills and general tendency toward reactionary devices and general negligence of leadership. Not that I have anything against dispatching leaderless, feral or otherwise, incorrigible dogs. I will, however, state categorically and within city limits that I will not pull a trigger on a dog unless I have the wounds to prove it.

Taking leadership of the adrenaline rush is no small matter. Through prayer, or meditation, yoga, or my favorite zen. Confidence and luck will win the day.

 

[lemaymiami]

Well said dog... As a side note, almost all of the doghandlers on my Department had at least one set of scars earned either in training or on the street from their own dog or another handler's dog. The K-9 officers I worked with were, as a rule, a cut above ordinary officers -particularly when it came to close quarter scary stuff. Our handlers in that era (1980's and 1990's) worked with Shepherds or Rottweilers, these days I see a lot more Malinois (sp?).

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Massad Ayoob wrote an article years ago about tests he and a doctor performed that involved injecting epinephrine (adrenaline) into volunteer shooters to observe the effects. I vaguely recall that one of the issues Ayoob was investigating was the affects of adrenaline on pupil dialation and whether or not a shooter was able to focus on the front sight.

He also investigated other effects but the article was so long ago that I can't remember anything else.

Maybe you can get ahold of Ayoob and ask him for a copy of the article.

 

[PBR Streetgang]

Ok, I'm going to wade into this thread wearing a couple of different hats. First off I'm a retired LEO from a major metropolitan northeast US city,firearms instructor, K9 handler, swat team member ,animal lover and hunter.

When I was working patrol I made it a point to know people,places and things in my patrol district. I didn't have a problem getting out of my cruiser and meeting the people I was protecting for no other reason than to say Hi. I also didn't have a problem getting out of my cruiser and walking neighborhoods after dark learning shortcuts thru alleys and what I might find there,(dogs, broken fences, unlocked gates and hiding areas) I made it a point to always have a few dog treats in my pockets and always a bag of them in the cruiser with a makeshift leash and muzzle.Due to my actions I made lot of friends both two and four legged ones.


As far as being a firearms instructor, most officers aren't trained in shooting moving targets. due to "cost restrictions"

In relation to working teams, a good unit recons their area where a search warrant was going to be served. I won't go into detail but we had numerous ways of controlling aggressive dogs humanely. Unfortunately we sometimes had some new officer that wanted to shoot something and would attempt to shoot a barking dog most likely only wounding him and making him more dangerous to control. On one such search warrant I reached to grab a barking dog (that presented no REAL danger to me or other officers) and a officer shot it. All she was doing was protecting her newborn puppies. He and I didn't work together after that.
In another instance we raided a place that was filled with snakes. The guys I worked with would stand shoulder to shoulder with you in a shootout but once one of the officers yelled SNAKE they left the place just as quick as they entered. I walked out of the place with a python wrapped around my arm and those brave city boys threatened to shoot me if I came any closer to them!

I just have a problem destroying any animal that doesn't present a real threat to me. On the other hand I didn't have a problem destroying one that was a threat to my brother officers or the public. It's all in the training.
I have two dogs now and if someone injured them for no good "REAL"reason it wouldn't be pretty.

 

[Averageman]

I was shooting today (Memorial Day) with an old Army Buddy.
We practise IDPA twice a week, We both agreed today that the worse thing the Military ever did was train you to shoot on static ranges at static targets from a fixed position.
I think the only way Police and Military get good training is to invest a lot of their own money, or belong to a specialized unit that has a heck of a budget for ammo.

Break it in to two distinct catagories, Psychological and Physical limitations.

Psychological
The act of shooting at a human target vs an animal is so ingrained against our natures in Western Civilization, that I think there is a natural hesitation when engaging a human.
I believe the only way to overcome this limitation is experiance in the field and practise on the range with a firm belief in what you are doing.

Physical
You might be well served to practise (safely of course) a variety of scenerio's in which your cardio vascular system is taxed, before you engage your targets.
I would imagine running a couple of 100 yd dashes and then engaging a reactive target such as a Texas Star would be a good way to test your skills.
You would have to continue to work on your shooting and Physical conditioning to do this from cover and during movement to cover; but I think it would be a resonable standard to seek to acheive.

I have achieved the status of "Old Phart", havng been there and done some of that, now I get a check every month as a "Thanks", but I still try and keep some practical skill available.
I am thankful to all of those Young People who now, still move toward the sound of gunfire and wish them the best of training before the occasion occurs.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Want an adrenalin hit, have a K9 Alert on you (I was OPFOR for a SRT/K9 training day, cause I knew somebody who knew somebody and the LT wanted a good shooter who didn't know their rules/SOP's)

Yeah, 120# of pissed off meat grinder 2 feet from you, cause somebody forgot to warn before setting off flashbangs, there's a good hit for you, It wasn't till later I realized that the K9 Officers were yelling 'don't move, whatever you do, don't **** move' I kinda got that when both dogs showed up teeth bared and growling.

 

[pps]

Can't speak for anyone else but my marksmanship went WAY downhill when unexpectedly charged by a wild boar. First shots went into the dirt several feet in front of the animal...before I settled in and landed the rest. Shortly after I was trembling, and could barely muster the coordination to get the truck key into the ignition to back the truck down to the boar.

I've put handgun rounds through animals out to 75 yards...and it's a whole different ballgame compared to run of the mill "buck fever" to have to pull off a shot so unexpectedly you are fumbling to get to your sidearm.

I'd suspect that hit ratios for cops involved with situations like raiding drug houses (where my guess is that your adrenaline is running the same way as pre-football game jitters/buck fever) where you have your chin strap buckled and you are in fight mode going into the situation. As opposed to the traffic stop where you are not (yet) in fight mode, but arrive there quite suddenly/violently/ and have to return fire on the fly....maybe while still simultaneously seeking cover and fumbling for your gun. (the later hit ratios MIGHT be as low as my hit ratios on the unexpected charging pig....versus a good hit ratio on the animals where I get a chance to prepare for the shots)

I don't know...I'm just trying to put myself in the cops shoes trying to relate to some hunting circumstances I've had. ymmv

 

[pat701]

You will be shaking and breathing hard for 5 minutes after a good shooting.