Point Shooting: Under-appreciated & practiced!

[Mad Magyar]

It seems that every time this subject comes up, its placed under "Here we go again" or it's considered some heresy against the Weaver or any type of two-hand hold. I say: hogwash and closed-mindedness!
An exhaustive NYPD report (NYPD SOP 9) revealed that in 70% of recorded police shootings (the majority under poor lighting conditions) officers did not use sights while 10% of the time officers didn't remember whether sights were used. In the remaining 20% of the cases, officers recollected using some form of visual aid to line up the target ~ which could be the sights themselves or just the barrel. No doubt that most civilian shooting are under similar conditions: the poorly lit restaurant or Wally World parking lot.

The NYPD statistics showed no correlation between an officer's range scores and his ability to hit a suspect at close range.
The mean score for NYPD police officers (1990-2000) for all shootings is fifteen hits per 100 shots fired, which is almost the identical hit ratio seen among Miami officers ~ who in the years 1990-2001 fired some 1300 rounds at suspects while recording fewer than 200 hits. Almost unbelievably, some NYPD figures show 62% of shots fired at a distance of less than six feet were complete misses.
The 1988 US Army training manual for pistols and revolvers [FM 23-35], in apparent recognition of the disconnect between sighted shooting at the range and the ability to score hits in short distance combat, wisely calls for point shoot training at distances of less than fifteen feet.
What's my point? You can be a hot-shot range shooter, but when "hell breaks loose" under poor conditions: point shooting practice might have been beneficial. What say you?

 

[9mmepiphany]

I've really put a lot of time into this before I retired and since I began teaching. I'd like to ask a question and then make a comment.

Question: NYPD, not the greatest example of LE shooting prowess (I think they do a very good job for the number of officers they have and the amount of time they are limited to), but a great resource of data, did not use their sights 70% of the time and missed 62% of the time from within 6 feet, and you think that means folks should be using their sights less?

Statement: The muscle memory and body alignment needed to accurately point shoot is learned through sighted fire practice...it is a by-product of sighted fire. This doesn't mean you can't learn it without learning sighted fire, it just makes it easier. Whichever method you choose to use, trigger management/control is still the key component to attaining accuracy.

 

[M-Cameron]

some NYPD figures show 62% of shots fired at a distance of less than six feet were complete misses.

that figure actually boggles my mind....i mean, i realize your under stress and all.....but a 6' x 2' person leaves a pretty big area to miss completely more than half the time......

i mean, at 6 feet....ide imagine blind folded, your average shooter could acheive at least a 70% hit ratio

 

[dovedescending]

Statement: The muscle memory and body alignment needed to accurately point shoot is learned through sighted fire practice...it is a by-product of sighted fire. This doesn't mean you can't learn it without learning sighted fire, it just makes it easier. Whichever method you choose to use, trigger management/control is still the key component to attaining accuracy.

This It took me a while to figure this one out. My point shooting has improved immensely as a by-product of my slow, steady, sight shooting practice sessions.

 

[oldbanjo]

I'm going to like this one. I think point is the way to shoot for HD. Bend your knees point your gun and shoot, it will surprise you to see what you can do without sights.

 

[oldbanjo]

That was how I was taught to shot a pistol in GA in the early 60's. My brother was a Cop and that's the way he taught me. Bending you knees puts the shot in the chest area. Just point and shot, it works.

 

[9mmepiphany]

That was how I was taught to shot a pistol in GA in the early 60's. My brother was a Cop and that's the way he taught me.

They were still teaching this in the late '70s when I entered LE...that and clenching your off-hand fist in front of your heart to deflect bullets (it was FBI doctrine at the time)...luckily training has moved beyond this (unless you're talking about the Point Shoulder technique) in most LE agencies. I was really quite good at it, but it gives up the accuracy advantages of bring you gun up to eye level and the speed advantages of the Speed Rock (see below), while offering the disadvantage of extending you gun in a CQC situation

that figure actually boggles my mind....i mean, i realize your under stress and all.....but a 6' x 2' person leaves a pretty big area to miss completely more than half the time......

i mean, at 6 feet....ide imagine blind folded, your average shooter could acheive at least a 70% hit ratio

You'd be surprised...I've seen misses at half that distance. Arm's length away, about 3 feet, when officers are first introduced to the Speed Rock.

...and that's just about the only point shooting technique that isn't learned through aimed fire and actually has is a tool you should have in your shooting tool box

 

[The Expert]

Isn't why they developed the IDPA? So that your muscle-memory is trained to shoot in a certain way in a combat situation instead of just pointing and pulling?

 

[Zak Smith]

IDPA was developed as as response to USPSA/IPSC.

 

[9mmepiphany]

The IDPA was formed to offer an alternative to high tech "Spaceguns" (compensated, optically sighted, high cap) and to keep the market alive for non-Spacegun 1911s.

IDPA did much to show that fast and accurate shooting was not the sole province of point shooting.

 

[Justin]

All I see is a study showing that NY cops can't shoot.

Not sure how that's a vindication of point shooting over aimed fire, but I guess YMMV.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Massad Ayoob once wrote something about using sights in a shooting. He said if you sorted the interviewees into winners and losers, you found the losers hardly ever remembered using the sights, while the winners did use them.

 

[lions]

They either need more practice using the sights, or they need more practice point shooting. I don't care how anyone wants to do it, you have to train like you fight, because you will fight like you trained.

 

[oldbanjo]

lions: That was good I like that.

 

[Hangingrock]

On the subject of point shooting are we talking the firearm position at waist level or shoulder level? I remember a photograph of Rex Applegate denoting point shooting and the firearm was at shoulder level. If that is point shooting then the firearm is within the field of vision. If that be the case then the firearm outline is being indexed so that would be a mode of sighting.

At Fort Sherman in the Canal Zone a long-long time ago the Army Special Forces conducted the Jungle Warfare School. As part of that training we utilized pump action BB guns. You get shot with a BB up close it stings. We were being taught how to return suppressive fire in an ambush. Your antagonist didn’t stop shooting until they were hit by your return fire. We were taught to shoulder the weapon look over the weapon and return fire. That in my opinion was point firing with a shoulder weapon.

I qualified expert with the 1911 pistol four consecutive times. When I employed the 1911 under duress, let’s just say it’s not a perfect word. Some you win, some you lose and others are rained out applies.

Given the opportunity access a rifle or a shotgun as opposed to a handgun.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

We were taught to shoulder the weapon look over the weapon and return fire. That in my opinion was point firing with a shoulder weapon.

That's Lucky McDaniel's "Quick Kill" (which Daisy brought out as "Quick Skill.") It works because you can see the BB in flight.

Talk to trap and skeet shooters -- the key to hitting consistently with a shotgun is to get your cheek firmly on the stock, so you are automatically looking down the barrel. Looking over the gun is a common cause of misses.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Define "point shooting." Is it truly unaimed fire, where you rely on a body position index and so-called muscle memory (AKA "hip shooting"), or do you put the handgun up in your line of sight but don't focus on the sights? The former is true point shooting, the latter is aimed fire, albeit coarsely. I like what Jim Cirillo, in his book Guns, Bullets and Gunfights, called the "Silhouette Point," wherein the handgun is brought up in your line of sight and the silhouette of the rear of the slide (Glocks work very well for this) or cylinder is quickly indexed on center of mass. But this is still aimed fire. "Hip shooting" should be reserved for contact or near contact distances, but should still be learned as well, as many gunfights do happen at such close ranges. Otherwise, whenever possible, you should use what Jeff Cooper called a "flash sight picture." This is why, on anything but a deep concealment backup pocket pistol, I insist on clearly visible sights on my handguns.

 

[jwr_747]

only point shooting I would attempt is if the bad guy is at arms length or less,shoot as I back up untill I can get the weapon up and extended..jwr

 

[9mmepiphany]

posted by TLH
Define "point shooting." Is it truly unaimed fire, where you rely on a body position index and so-called muscle memory (AKA "hip shooting"), or do you put the handgun up in your line of sight but don't focus on the sights?

That is my definition.

Point Shooting is unaimed fire, sometimes called hipshooting, commonly seen in Cowboy Fast Draw competition or the Speed Rock.

When you bring the gun up to shoulder level, you are into what the FBI taught as Point Shoulder, Cirillo called Silhouette and Ayoob called StressFire Point Index.

What Cooper called Flash sight picture has been refined to subconscious sight alignment recognition...not as catchy, but more definitively descriptive

 

[Tim Burke]

I'm not surprised that there is little correlation between range scores and street accuracy, they are different problems. What I would really like to see is an analysis of what the percentage of hits was when the officers remember seeing the sights vs. the hit percentage when they didn't remember seeing the sights.

 

[Al Thompson]

Over the last 30 years or so, I've come to the conclusion that "point shooting" is an advanced skill, not a basic one. You also have the definition issue - my point shooting method may be very different from yours.

Another issue with point shooting practice is that shooters tend to rely on tracking hits by observing the bullet hols in the paper or backstop and making adjustments. Put a shirt on the target or obscure the target and accuracy drops way off. Sort of like real life...

 

[Hangingrock]

I’m just asking at what distance and circumstance is unsighted fire employed other than physical contact.

 

[Zerodefect]

This is the best thread on THR. Thanks.

I've practiced point shooting. Usually 3 life sized targets 5-10 yards away. Put two rounds into each. Sights taped over. I can hit COM every time without going slow.

Actually a hair faster than useing good speedy sights like Warren Sevigney Comp or XS.

Even out to 10 yards. But beyond 10y I find myself instinctively looking for my front sight again. It's good to know exactly what range your 100% at without sights, and when you must switch to sights.

15y+ is sighted only. 7-13 is a quick, rushed sight picture. 7 or less I can point shoot with confidence. .....but if I have time and the guts to use my sights at closer ranges I will. (of course I find thise numbers fit me with a 4"-5" pistol barrel, obviously a mouse gun can not be pointed well, and a rifle can be pointed far, far better)




I think alot of what those Police statistics are showing, is not the effectiveness in point shooting. (they missed most of the time) Those results are showing that the officers were too terrified or in a hurry to use thier sights.

They were hoping to get lucky, or just making boom noises in terrified retreat, but I doubt they were "manning up" and fighting well. Oficers usually are terrible shots, throw in alot of strees and you get less than 100 hits per 1200+ shots fired.

 

[Zerodefect]

I’m just asking at what distance and circumstance is unsighted fire employed other than physical contact.

Only you can awnser that. It's totally situation and skill level dependant.

But you should practice weapon manipulation and shooting to cover these defensive senerios. That way this skill is allready burned in to your memory and you won't need to put much thought into it.

That way you can concentrate on tactics, and escape. Because the weapon side of your training is second nature and instinctive.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Sights taped over. I can hit COM every time without going slow

Taping over your sights, but still bringing the gun up into your line of sight really isn't Point Shooting...if we define it as un-sighted fire.

I once found out that my eyeglass prescription was out of date...as I drew my duty weapon from it's holster for quarterly firearms qualification ...I couldn't focus on the front sight at all, much less the target (I'm myopic). I shot the whole course, including shots from the 25 yard line, and still scored 87%...the shots that were out were obvious flinches of the trigger

I’m just asking at what distance and circumstance is unsighted fire employed other than physical contact.

Depends on your ability to index your gun with your body and your trigger control