Point Shooting: Under-appreciated & practiced!

[Crusader103]

I think the misses are due to them starting to fire as soon as the gun clears the holster. They start firing too soon and they try to empty their gun without ever getting the gun up where it should be. With point shooting the gun would be in the general area when they start shooting.

Agreed. So why not just use the sights then?

This is my major issue with the point shooting advocates. In order to be effective with point shooting, the firearm must either be at or just below eye level. That being the case, I would assert that it takes no more time to line up the sights to ensure a hit.

Here is a picture of Rex Applegate demonstrating his point shooting method. Keep in mind that this is a picture of the very person the point shooting advocates on here are pointing to as an example. Is there any reason why he shouldn't be using the sights if his weapon is already there within his field of view?

Looking at this picture, is there anybody that can really argue it would have taken more time for Mr. Applegate to get a sight picture?

To be clear, I am speaking of point shooting, which is depicted in the picture. Shooting from the waist or a position that would be required in close contact such as grappling with your adversary or other very short distances is NOT point shooting. That would be retention position or contact range shooting; distinctly different from point shooting even though often confused.

 

[oldbanjo]

That's the way I was taught and in a short time you will be very accurate. Surprisingly so.

 

[bigfatdave]

Here is a picture of Rex Applegate demonstrating his point shooting method. Keep in mind that this is a picture of the very person the point shooting advocates on here are pointing to as an example. Is there any reason why he shouldn't be using the sights if his weapon is already there within his field of view?

Assuming a real situation and not shooting on the range in good lighting on a nice day when you're not tired/hurt/hungry/scared?
Because he is fighting for his life, in a panic. Real people defending themselves from a real threat will focus on the threat, getting them a set of muscle memories to blast what's in front of them and in that "panic focus" regardless of the ability to see the sights isn't a bad thing.
Of course you use the sights if possible, but the photo you posted is in good light and staged, not a "surprise!" encounter.

 

[oldbanjo]

For HD distances Point shooting would be faster than looking for sights. An with a little practice as accurate as you'll need to be. The most important part is bending your knees so the gun will hit center mass.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Good points.
Not to mention that at close range--and with little practice--one can be just as accurate without the sights as with the sights.
And a whole lot faster.
Perhaps a better question is why not learn/practice both methods--as well as hip/retention shooting--and letting the situation dictate the response?

 

[oldbanjo]

I never used sights while Duck hunting I focused on the duck while swinging when the barrel passed the Duck I pulled the trigger and kept on swinging. Then I'd see another Duck and do the same thing again.

 

[Zak Smith]

Assuming a real situation and not shooting on the range in good lighting on a nice day when you're not tired/hurt/hungry/scared?
Because he is fighting for his life, in a panic. Real people defending themselves from a real threat will focus on the threat, getting them a set of muscle memories to blast what's in front of them and in that "panic focus" regardless of the ability to see the sights isn't a bad thing.

If you can only "remember" to do a limited set of things while "in a panic", a complex set of physical relationships (ie "muscle memory" for point shooting) may well be more difficult to "remember" correctly compared to the two simple words "FRONT SIGHT." If you can remember to put the front sight on what you want to hit, nothing else matters as long as the pistol fires while the sight is on target. Body position does not matter. Perfect grip does not matter. Arm position does not matter. Foot position does not matter. It doesn't matter if you're on the ground or have some of your limb incapacitated. Pull the trigger with the front sight on the target and you will make a hit.

Owen wrote an excellent, excellent post (#30) that everyone should re-read. Point or index shooting should be considered an advanced technique that naturally evolves after the shooter has mastered sighted aiming. The fall-back is always using the sights. Using sights guarantees a hit. Point or index shooting may increase speed, but it's also more likely to incur misses and be dramatically less reliable when the specific "muscle memory" body positions (ie the "index") are invalidated. When you discover you aren't making hits for whatever combination of reasons, the fail-safe method is "FRONT SIGHT PRESS."

-z

 

[Old Fuff]

I wonder if either jscott or bigfatdave ever tried to pick up a flash sight picture while using either a 1911 (not A1) or 1903/08 Colt Pocket Pistol equiped with the original sights common to most pistols made in the 1920's and 30's?

The illustration shown is Capt. Rex Applegate, taken from a training manual made during World War Two. If while in low light you tried to pick up any kind of sight picture with the kind of sights that were mounted on his pistol you'd still be looking, and looking, and looking....

If you have been trained in bullseye marksmanship you know that you are supposed to focus on the front sight and get a clear picture of the sights while the target is fuzzy. In a fight, most people will focus with tunnel vision on the threat. They will point the gun, and shoot - even though later they don't remember how many times.

Of course if you point you'll miss, or so we are told. I fail to understand why it is that at distances out to say 5 to 7 yards I can shoot from waist level and hit what I'm shooting at, but can't do the same if I'm shooting from shoulder level.

There is another thread running right now, where the DOJ claims that some 80% of assaults (not gunfights) occur in public parking lots. (I don't have a link but I'll try to find one later). If, at night, I get jumped by a car-jacker or mugger in a parking lot the last thing I'm going to look for is the sights on my pocket revolver...

Now if you are going to throw in some light and lengthen the distance the Weaver Stance and sights will come into their own.

There is another thread running right now, where the DOJ claims that some 80% of assaults (not gunfights) occur in public parking lots. (I don't have a link but I'll try to find one later)

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=547218

 

[oldbanjo]

Of course practice both. If you point your finger at something it is accurately pointing at it. I use a S&W MD36 most of the time, put your finger side the barrel bend your knees and point, for practice.. After a while your first shot will amaze you.

 

[oldbanjo]

That site was about walmart parking lot and about keys.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I think the misses are due to them starting to fire as soon as the gun clears the holster. They start firing too soon and they try to empty their gun without ever getting the gun up where it should be.

Sounds like an old Dean Martin and Jerry Lewis routine.

"I'm the fastest gun in the West. I shoot as soon as my gun clears the holster. They call me Quick Draw Martin."

"I'm even faster. I shoot before my gun clears the holster. They call me No Toes Lewis."

 

[yeti]

I paid good money for those sights, I'm darn well going to use them whenever practical.

 

[Old Fuff]

I paid good money for those sights, I'm darn well going to use them whenever practical.

Very good!!!

But what's the game plan for when it isn't practical???

 

[Crusader103]

But what's the game plan for when it isn't practical???

I fail to see when point shooting would be practical but using your sights would not in that same circumstance. Again, I am not talking contact or retention range, but the distance at which point shooting would be employed (just below eye level).

I disagree that point shooting is faster. I disagree that it is just as accurate. I can attest from personal experience that you can, and should, focus on your sights during a gunfight. I can further attest from personal interviews that the overwhelming majority of those involved in gunfights who only practiced sighted fire recalled seeing their front sight. It is not only possible that you will see your sights in a gunfight. It is logical to believe that the way you train is the way you will fight.

This whole "threat focused shooting" is a sham. If you focus on the "threat" in practice. You will focus on the threat in a fight. If you focus on the sights in practice, you will likewise focus on them in a fight.

I would strongly assert that the time spent learning to point shoot would be put to much better use refining your ability to obtain a sight picture quickly.

I wonder if either jscott or bigfatdave ever tried to pick up a flash sight picture while using either a 1911 (not A1) or 1903/08 Colt Pocket Pistol equiped with the original sights common to most pistols made in the 1920's and 30's?

You can stop wondering. I have. But thankfully the weapons, and sights, most of us choose to rely on for our own self preservation have evolved beyond that seen in the 20's and 30's. I mistakenly thought we were talking about modern firearms and modern techniques.

 

[Hangingrock]

Frist of all I’m not an Operator, Contractor, Tactical, or mentored by one of the past Shooting Masters.

I did survive 1911-A1 Combat Pistol 101. Course requirements USMC membership, basic familiarization and firing at PI, and MOS that requires a pistol being issued. (May I add you are also issued along with it a holster, magazine pouch, three magazines, one (50) round box of ammunition, and a K-Bar fighting knife)

We have this situation where an antagonist interrupts a discussion and is summarily shot center mass with a 1911A1 which did not finish him off. Further hits are required with a M1-Carbine and M14 rifle. (I’m orienting the map as requested by the team leader. My pistol is secured in the holster with the chamber empty)

The day progresses (3) Marine Battalion’s are locked in battle with a VC main force regiment. The hamlets are fortified. Our team encounters antagonists that just pop up out of ground. Its close I fire I miss. The day started of bad and it’s not getting any better. (Brought the pistol up to shoulder level and fired with no effect.)

Later on in the day the field radio quits, the spare battery doesn’t solve the problem. The team leader asks me to get a replacement battery at the battalion CP. The situation is very fluid I’m confronted with an antagonist near one of the hamlets that we had swept thru earlier. I fire I miss then I hit and hit its over. I get to the battalion CP obtain a radio battery and at the aid station I obtain a rifle and magazine pouches & magazines. I go back to the team a different way. (I stopped missing when I clearly saw the front sight)

That night they disengaged it’s basically over. The next couple of days are nettlesome with sporadic fire incidents.

End of story.

I formed an opinion four plus decades ago that sighted fire with a pistol is more relevant than point or unsighted fire. You’ll have to pardon me if I’m skeptical of point shooting and or unsighted fire. I also realize that there are those among us that are more proficient in the previously mentioned technical aspects of certain shooting methods.

What’s problematic is the targets are dynamic as opposed to static. There is also the “Pucker Factor”. In the end it may not be your “Lucky Day”.

 

[bigfatdave]

Old Fuff, I have, there's a reason I wouldn't take less than a set of Novak-style large sights on my 1911 (or any carry gun, for that matter).

And I still make a point (NPI) of doing some close-range shooting with that gun, I've recently added in some shooting on the move to the routine, and if I can snap-shoot into COM on a small silhouette while retreating and then acquire a sight picture to continue to put rounds into that target as the gun comes into view, I think anyone could.

I'm no operator, my military experience was a bit overly underwater for regular gunfights ... but I do know that opportunistic predators don't stand off at exactly 10 yards and wait for you to get a good sight picture.