A question about swaging

[Obturation]

Hey all,
Hope everyone's doing well.
This is kind of a strange question and I'm not sure this question is easily answered , possibly will raise more questions than it answers. This has been bouncing around my head for a while and I figured I'd just ask the experts and stop wondering.

I've seen videos of guys annealing brass, dropping a lead core in the empty case , seating /expanding the core core to fit tight, sizing it all together and loading it as a jacketed projectile. I think we're all familiar with that to one degree or another.

Here's my question:
Is it possible/reasonable to anneal an appropriate case, fill with molten lead and then size it? Basically using the case as a mould. I know there are some variables but is this possible and if so would it produce reasonable projectiles?

I'm not talking about using traditional swaging tools, more like push through sizers.

Let me know what you think or know, please.

Thanks!

 

[edwardware]

You've essentially described Speer's Hot-Cor process, but I suspect they don't size after pouring, since the two materials have different springback strains (the copper jacket will spring back more than the lead core).

I've been shooting 2nds Hot-Cor bullets for years, and based on the blems, I think they completely form the jackets (including ogive) prior to pouring.

 

[forrest r]

You really don't need a lot of expensive swaging dies to make jacketed bullets. Pistol bullets are the easiest to make out of shell cases. When using range brass it's easier to make the larger caliber bullets like the 40cal's/44cal's/45cal's/50cal's simply because it's easier to bump brass up IE.

9mm brass ='s 40s&w/10mm/41mag
40s&w ='s 44cal's
40s&w ='s 45cal's
45acp ='s 50cal's

You can use 380acp & 9mm brass to make 35cal bullets .But it takes more effort using draw dies to reduce the diameter of the cases to use them for 35cal's (38spl/357's/9mm's.

When drawing cases down like the 9mm's to make .355" or .357" bullets it's better to anneal the 9mm cases. When bumping cases up it really isn't needed. The 9mm is .390"+ at the web it takes a couple draws to get them down to .357". I don't like to go more than 20/1000th's per draw & 15/1000th's for the 1st & 2nd draws are better and then a small/fine tune draw for the 3rd/final draw to .357". I use 9mm cases for heavy 357mag bullets (+/- 175gr) and 380acp cases for light 38spl/357bullets (+/- 150gr).

44cal bullets are a lot easier, expand a 40s&w case using a 41mag expander and toss a cast bullet or core in the expanded case. A 357 bullet will work but a 41cal bullet is perfect.
45cal bullets use the same 40s&w case simply expand them with a 44cal expander and then toss a lite 44cal cast bullet or 357 bullet in the expanded case.

Weigh the case being used and then use a cast bullet/core to get the weight of the final bullet where you want it.

If you look at fl rifle dies you will see that several of them will either match or be a little larger in diameter (preferred) then the bullet your trying to swage. Use those to form your bullets and a lee push thru sizer to final size the swaged bullet. Use the stem of the lee push thru sizer when swaging your bullets in the fl rifle sizing dies.

You really don't need to melt/bond the cores to the cases. But you do need to use a soft alloy for the core. I use 8/9bhn alloy all the time.








All those bullets pictured above were made with shell cases, cast bullets for cores, rifle dies used as bullet forming dies & lee push thru sizers for the final sizing.

Draw dies can be made to draw 9mm/380acp cases down by simply drilling holes in 3/4" stock and the using a #7 taper pin reamer & then polishing the holes smooth. Lube the 9mm/380acp case and set it the tapered hole, use a rounded 5/16th's" bolt and a hammer and drive the case thru the hole drawing it down. Set it in the next draw (+/- 15/1000ths" smaller) and wash rinse repeat until you have them drawn down to +/- .355".

Anyway, it's doable just depends on how much effort you're willing to spend.

 

[garandsrus]

Each step in the swaging process increases the case diameter a little. The jacket slides easily into the core seating die and the core fits loosely into the jacket. When seating the core, the lead core is compressed, which expands the lead to the jacket walls and expands the jacket to fit the swage die. If the jacket is rounded at the bottom it will be flattened in this step also. The point forming die will also expand the jacket slightly.

The biggest issue in filling cores with molten lead is that it would be hard to get a consistent weight. The seated core is normally below the jacket mouth so that the lead fills the tip of the jacket as it is formed. If the jacket is full of lead, there will be quite a bit that extends out of the case, like a really big soft point.

 

[Obturation]

You really don't need a lot of expensive swaging dies to make jacketed bullets. Pistol bullets are the easiest to make out of shell cases. When using range brass it's easier to make the larger caliber bullets like the 40cal's/44cal's/45cal's/50cal's simply because it's easier to bump brass up IE.

9mm brass ='s 40s&w/10mm/41mag
40s&w ='s 44cal's
40s&w ='s 45cal's
45acp ='s 50cal's

You can use 380acp & 9mm brass to make 35cal bullets .But it takes more effort using draw dies to reduce the diameter of the cases to use them for 35cal's (38spl/357's/9mm's.

When drawing cases down like the 9mm's to make .355" or .357" bullets it's better to anneal the 9mm cases. When bumping cases up it really isn't needed. The 9mm is .390"+ at the web it takes a couple draws to get them down to .357". I don't like to go more than 20/1000th's per draw & 15/1000th's for the 1st & 2nd draws are better and then a small/fine tune draw for the 3rd/final draw to .357". I use 9mm cases for heavy 357mag bullets (+/- 175gr) and 380acp cases for light 38spl/357bullets (+/- 150gr).

44cal bullets are a lot easier, expand a 40s&w case using a 41mag expander and toss a cast bullet or core in the expanded case. A 357 bullet will work but a 41cal bullet is perfect.
45cal bullets use the same 40s&w case simply expand them with a 44cal expander and then toss a lite 44cal cast bullet or 357 bullet in the expanded case.

Weigh the case being used and then use a cast bullet/core to get the weight of the final bullet where you want it.

If you look at fl rifle dies you will see that several of them will either match or be a little larger in diameter (preferred) then the bullet your trying to swage. Use those to form your bullets and a lee push thru sizer to final size the swaged bullet. Use the stem of the lee push thru sizer when swaging your bullets in the fl rifle sizing dies.

You really don't need to melt/bond the cores to the cases. But you do need to use a soft alloy for the core. I use 8/9bhn alloy all the time.
View attachment 965621

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All those bullets pictured above were made with shell cases, cast bullets for cores, rifle dies used as bullet forming dies & lee push thru sizers for the final sizing.

Draw dies can be made to draw 9mm/380acp cases down by simply drilling holes in 3/4" stock and the using a #7 taper pin reamer & then polishing the holes smooth. Lube the 9mm/380acp case and set it the tapered hole, use a rounded 5/16th's" bolt and a hammer and drive the case thru the hole drawing it down. Set it in the next draw (+/- 15/1000ths" smaller) and wash rinse repeat until you have them drawn down to +/- .355".

Anyway, it's doable just depends on how much effort you're willing to spend.

Wow, thanks for the detailed reply!
If possible , I have a few questions -

brass up IE

Unfamiliar with the abbreviation .

I don't like to go more than 20/1000th's per draw & 15/1000th's for the 1st & 2nd draws are better and then a small/fine tune draw for the 3rd/final draw to .357". I use 9mm cases for heavy 357mag bullets (+/- 175gr) and 380acp cases for light 38spl/357bullets (+/- 150gr).

Is it possible to use either sizing dies of diminishing internal diameters (if available) or the sets of bushings I've seen commercially available (can't remember brand)? I don't have the tooling to drill and ream with any amount of precision .

If you look at fl rifle dies you will see that several of them will either match or be a little larger in diameter (preferred) then the bullet your trying to swage.

I assume we're talking about the neck dimension, so maybe a 450 bushmaster die to make .451 ?
Otherwise possibly the lower dimension and the taper that's used to form the shoulder is what creates the ogive?

A 357 bullet will work but a 41cal bullet is perfect.

In this example, would the core be loose if using a 357 bullet instead of a 41 bullet? If not, what happens to the empty space left by using the smaller core?


I see

When seating the core, the lead core is compressed, which expands the lead to the jacket walls and expands the jacket to fit the swage die

What tool would I use to do this (besides specific swaging tools/cost effective tools)

The biggest issue in filling cores with molten lead is that it would be hard to get a consistent weight.

I thought that would be ideal for consistent weight, if all the cases had the same internal volume and all were filled to the same level, I guess I thought excess would be squished out leaving a full jacket and the extra could be trimmed off.



I know this is not a traditional/proper swaging technique , just want something to tinker with in my down time without investing too much money . let's say for getting started the minimum tooling to do some .451 bullets. I have scrap brass and a couple push through sizers for lead bullets, a couple rifle dies 30-30 & 338 lapua , a strong press, some cast bullets of various sized and a can of spinach (like popeye!, might need it).
Thanks for all the info, I'm honestly just wrapping my head around it at this point.

 

[garandsrus]

With swaging dies, the core squirt die will squish the core to the die size and bleed the excess lead through holes in the side of the die. This gives cores that generally weigh within .1 gr of each other that are the correct diameter to fit into the jacket. That is the only time the weight is adjusted since the core normally fits completely inside the jacket, as I mentioned earlier.

I have seen posts where people used a combination of reloading dies and made workable jacketed bullets. I wasn’t too interested so don’t remember the specifics. With the calibers they were making bullets for, I normally just shoot cast bullets. I have swaging dies for .22, 7mm, and 30 caliber and only make jacketed rifle bullets for the most part.

There is a swaging section on castboolits.gunloads.com that has quite a bit of information.

Good luck and have fun!

 

[forrest r]

You don't need a squirt die or .1gr precision for pistol/revolver bullets.

To form those bullets pictured above I use:
A hornady blank die to "notch" the xtp pleats in the hp's
222rem fl die to form the noses of the 35cl bullets
6mm remington fl die to form the noses of the 44cal bullets
243 winchester fl die to form the noses of the 45cal bullets

If I wanted a wider fn bullet for the 45cal's I'd use a 308w fl die.

It takes a lot of force to draw a 9mm case down 15/1000th's in 1 pull. I use a 1 ton arbor press and home made dies to draw the 9mm & 380acp cases down.

Bumping the cases up is a lot easier and common expander dies and standard single stage reloading presses are all that's needed.

Using a soft cast bullet for the core is more than precise enough for pistol/revolver bullets. You can use the expander die you used to bump the case up to seat/flatted the cast bullet core before using a nose forming die (fl rifle dies) if needed.

I don't make a lot of these types of jackets bullets. Mainly did them to do head to head testing with my swaged lead bullets and cast bullets. I will say the bullets made from scrap range brass perform at an extremely high level.

 

[garandsrus]

Here are a couple examples of what you are trying to do:
swaging with reloading dies - http://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...hing-40-s-into-44-s-using-stuff-I-had-on-hand
lead directly into the jacket - http://castboolits.gunloads.com/archive/index.php/t-226018.html
another lead into the jacket - http://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...pure-lead-directly-into-22lr-for-224-jacketed

 

[WestKentucky]

The thing I want to understand better is what happens if you do something like an 80% case fill on an annealed 9mm case, and leave the “mouth” of the 9mm case as a skirt. Will it blow out and seal, leaving the front of the case to work like a fmj/wadcutter hybrid? Would it rip the skirt off?

 

[Obturation]

The thing I want to understand better is what happens if you do something like an 80% case fill on an annealed 9mm case, and leave the “mouth” of the 9mm case as a skirt. Will it blow out and seal, leaving the front of the case to work like a fmj/wadcutter hybrid? Would it rip the skirt off?

Sounds like it could work but I'm still doing my best to understand swaging in general so my assumption isn't worth much.

 

[WestKentucky]

Sounds like it could work but I'm still doing my best to understand swaging in general so my assumption isn't worth much.

Me too. I haven’t even gathered up all the stuff I need for casting so reading and considering a jump into swaging as well is kinda crazy. I could cast cores though and swage those.

 

[Obturation]

My goal is just to be able to make a small quantity of decent quality jacketed bullets if need be. I'm not interested in making 500 for plinking , more like 50 for testing and then just a handful here and there. I like being able to do things for myself but I'm not the guy who wastes time if easier options are available , I just like the option.

 

[WestKentucky]

I thought that would be ideal for consistent weight, if all the cases had the same internal volume and all were filled to the same level, I guess I thought excess would be squished out leaving a full jacket and the extra could be trimmed off.

Since nobody else has addressed this point, I will give it a shot. (Obturation, you probably could do this better than me honestly if you thought it through... you are more linguistically gifted than I am.)

Yes that seems like a very logical way to have consistency but the process of home/amateur casting is highly inconsistent. The lead pours are done either by hand with a dipper (think ping pong ball with a hole and a spout mounted to a stick) or a bottom pour pot (think Gatorade cooler at the football game) you can’t very accurately meter out the volume of lead you are dropping, so you intentionally drop a bit too much, and trim that off to toss back into the pot to melt and use it again. If the cast volume was metered out more accurately then the idea would be very nice, and likely very close to what the HotCor bullets are. To further aggravate matters, brass is inconsistent as well, even within the same headstamp but from lot to lot.

 

[Obturation]

Since nobody else has addressed this point, I will give it a shot. (Obturation, you probably could do this better than me honestly if you thought it through... you are more linguistically gifted than I am.)

Yes that seems like a very logical way to have consistency but the process of home/amateur casting is highly inconsistent. The lead pours are done either by hand with a dipper (think ping pong ball with a hole and a spout mounted to a stick) or a bottom pour pot (think Gatorade cooler at the football game) you can’t very accurately meter out the volume of lead you are dropping, so you intentionally drop a bit too much, and trim that off to toss back into the pot to melt and use it again. If the cast volume was metered out more accurately then the idea would be very nice, and likely very close to what the HotCor bullets are. To further aggravate matters, brass is inconsistent as well, even within the same headstamp but from lot to lot.

Yep.
Possibly a solution would be to fill the cases to equal weight with solder or whatever , then melt & anneal in one step? I could see that holding the weights even and maybe allow skipping the step of seating the core. Only brainstorming / thinking out loud...errr in type .
Toughest part for me to grasp is more on the forming portion , getting correct dimensions from full length rifle dies. I guess you just flip through the loading manual and find a cartridge with similar dimensions and order a die.

I totally get the need for proper & specific tools for this, I'm interested in giving it a try with minimal investment . like everything else, if it suits me I could see buying proper equipment . I shoot lots of commercially cast bullets , way more than jacketed and I'm happy with that. I also shoot some heavy fast bullets that I would like an option for cheap jacketed rounds.
Is anything worth doing EVER easy? Nope, even dumb stuff that isn't worth doing is hard. Life is good though.

 

[forrest r]

The big picture:
Everyone seems to be stuck on weight or even weights of the swaged bullets. For revolvers A +/- 2gr weight in a 200+gr bullet isn't going to have a major impact on anything. It all boils down to how much work you want to put into these types of bullets. At the end of the day a pile of cases have a lot of differences in the weight of the single cases. You could weigh each 1, trim them, re-weigh them and then fine tune the weight to even them. Cast bullets are typically +/- 1gr in weight. You could use a blead die to even the weights. Again more work & it takes 100yd+ shots for the difference in weights to even begin to show up.

Keep it simple!!! You don't need special dies for pistol & revolver bullets.

My "special" dies to make 45cal jacketed bullets out of 40s&w cases
a 38spl shell holder which I already own don't want to buy or need to buy a 40s&w shell holder
a 44spl/mag expander die which I already own came with my sets of 44spl/mag reloading dies
a 243 winchester fl die $5 at a gunshow/guy had a box full of loose dies for $5 each
$.25 for a 6" grade 5 1/4" bolt.
a .452" lee push thru sizing die which I already own for cast bullets
It cost me $5.25 for the swaging dies to make 45acp jacketed bullets out of 40s&w cases
For someone 1st starting out +/- $40 if they look around at gunshows. The big $$$ item being a $20 lee push thru sizer.

I wanted the "xtp" notches in my hp noses and paid $25 for a used set of hornady blank dies at a gunshow. The blank dies can make notches in 22cal thru 50cal bullets.

There's nothing wrong with swaging these types of bullets with common dies, shell holders, sizers, expander dies. It keeps the cost down and allows reloaders to make custom bullets without breaking the bank. I started swaging bullets in 1990 using commercial dies. Sold the last of them off this spring. I still swage my own 224 bullets for the 223rem with commercial dies and keep a herters 9-ton press around. I use the herters to nose size cast bullets with custom nose forming dies and square/true the gas checks on 30cal's with custom dies.

 

[forrest r]

The thing I want to understand better is what happens if you do something like an 80% case fill on an annealed 9mm case, and leave the “mouth” of the 9mm case as a skirt. Will it blow out and seal, leaving the front of the case to work like a fmj/wadcutter hybrid? Would it rip the skirt off?

You got to get away from the "anneal" thing. What you're trying to do is actually caveman simple.

Playing around with the 44spl/snubnosed revolver with hp swc's, cast hbwc's turned backwards and home swaged hbwc's made out of 40s&w brass turned backwards.


Same thing with a snubnosed 38spl using cast hp's and home swaged hbwc's made out of 9mm cases turned backwards.


The recovered home swaged jacketed hbwc made out of 40s&w cases and 9mm cases. You can tell the difference between the 2 by looking at the bases. The 9mm's have land marks in them, These have bonded cores


The .358" 150gr home swaged jacketed hbwc's made out of 9mm cases with +/- 80% fill/bonded cores.


The 44cal hbwc's made from 40s&w cases have bonded cores and weigh 220gr.

The shell case hbwc's can be used/shot like traditional hbwc's with the skirt in the case. I tested some this way @ 50yds and 1600fps+ & they were very accurate. When making these jacketed hbwc's my interests were in using them as a "cookie cutter/huge hp" sd bullet in snubnosed revolvers.

I already cast hbwc's for the 32cal/35cal/41cal/44cal & 45cal pistols & revolvers along with casting hb fn & swc bullets for the 35cal's/44cal's & 45cal's. So I didn't get into a lot of testing/using these jacketed hbwc's as actual hbwc's/target loads.

 

[dgod]

Wow, talk about confusing... I thought Swaging was the removal of the primer crimp ring on military brass. Then I start reading this...

 

[garandsrus]

Please delete

 

[garandsrus]

The thing I want to understand better is what happens if you do something like an 80% case fill on an annealed 9mm case, and leave the “mouth” of the 9mm case as a skirt. Will it blow out and seal, leaving the front of the case to work like a fmj/wadcutter hybrid? Would it rip the skirt off?

As the bullet exits the barrel, the skirt might get blown out and act like an air brake. It would be easy enough to shoot a couple through a target at close range and measure the hole diameter.

 

[Obturation]

Alright,
Thoughts please:
I did some minor tinkering with what I had on hand, I understand this isn't truly swaging but a feeble first attempt with what I've got.

Annealed 45 auto case- dropped in water. Pressed a .452 325 wfn coated bullet to the bottom - base up. Sized to .457. Pushed it up into a 338 lapua sizing die with the decapping pin removed in an attempt to form an ogive- barely worked, the bullet is 18 brinell (yes, too hard but what I had).Pressed a cannalure into it with a 45-70 lee fcd in the approximately correct area. Seated to 2.550" in a dummy case just to see how it would go. This is more of a proof of concept than something I'd do much of , just seeing if I could make jacket rifle bullets with pistol bullets from things on hand.

Would you fire it??
Feedback appreciated. Calling me an idiot is also acceptable in this case, but please explain why.

- dummy 45-70 case is an ancient balloon head case that I would never put a charge in.

 

[garandsrus]

Your bullet core was way too hard, as you already know. No, I don't think I would fire it. It should exit the barrel, but i don't think you would accomplish much else. 45-70 is a great caliber for shooting cast bullets. I would suggest getting a 400gr or so flat point mold.

 

[Obturation]

Your bullet core was way too hard, as you already know. No, I don't think I would fire it. It should exit the barrel, but i don't think you would accomplish much else. 45-70 is a great caliber for shooting cast bullets. I would suggest getting a 400gr or so flat point mold.

I have 405 & 500 grain molds, not casting at this point but I have most of what is need. I also have over 1000 405 grain coated mcb bullets and a few hundred laser cast ( rock hard) traditionally lubed bullets. I've had no problem driving the coated bullets as hard as I care to shoot. Just doing this as an experiment , to see what's possible.

You think the "jacket " may engage the rifling and the core slip? That's the worst thing I can foresee but I have zero experience with anything like this.

It's not a need to do thing but a what can I do thing. I'm shooting less but still want to spend time at the bench screwing around . the end result would be a soft core that could expand but being able to drive it at full velocity without smearing lead down the barrel.

As long as the consensus is that it's safe, I'll try a few over a mild charge and see what they'll do.

Thanks for the reply

 

[Obturation]

Hey all,
I know, I know- my last attempt made a goofy looking crooked discolored weird bullet. I can accept that, but I'm still at it (very possibly wasting my time). Like I mentioned before, I'm just kind of trying different things and seeing what happens. Here's today's attempt- I think the results are actually close to being decent , but I don't know much.

Digging through a box of very old components from the 50s or so I came up with some short, round 180ish grain bullets that were sized at .452" and very soft.


So I pushed them through a .452 sized to be sure- right through with very little effort.

I took an annealed 45 acp case and inserted a bullet nose down and used a smaller sizing stem to crush it into the base of the case- I used considerable force , then I inserted a bullet , base first and smashed that one down.


That looked pretty good (compared to what I've been making )
Pushed the whole thing through a .457 sizing die and the results weren't horrible.



452 grains.

Put it into dummy case and crimped it.



To me, that actually looks like a shootable bullet, and it was by far the simplest and quickest one yet. What do you all think?
I figure weight could be adjusted my removing lead from the first core before seating.
Would you shoot this type of bullet?



***I'm just screwing around at the bench, trying not to blow through the powder and primers I have right now. I'm only doing this to occupy time and see what's possible , if anyone would have any safety concerns with trying to fire bullets made this way please speak up.