A question of Morality

[CoRoMo]

I know there's even been bouts of smuggling with our currently deployed guys. It's really just a risk that I couldn't possibly take, but I think a lot of them don't really know how big a risk it is that they are taking.

 

[MisterMike]

The only legally "safe" way to handle this is to have an attorney, with whom you have confidentiality, arrange for it to be turned over (assuming it's determined to be verboten). Sad, but true.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Hi Dean,

A cursory examination and function check should tell you something's up... not to mention the fact that it says "M2" and not "M1".

How many people without more than passing experience with things military would know the difference? With so many carbine clones made, the reasonable person would likely assume it to be a Universal not a Betty Crocker.

 

[TomCat5]

I dislike hypothetical...

 

[TomCat5]

 

[270savage]

In reality, it would be a moot point because it would be fairly simple to check for full auto functionality (check chamber, pull bolt out of battery, hold trigger back, drop bolt, if the hammer drops, steer clear) before purchasing.

It may be necessary to develop a different check.
Given the sequence of actions described in this quote, my Remington model 141 and my Ithaca model 37 are both full auto.

 

[swoter]

Until reading this thread, I had no idea what a M2 was. If I either bought or was given one, I would have been very surprised when I pulled the trigger the first time! I would have assumed it was just a different version of the carbine I've seen at gunshows but never owned.

 

[A and O]

At today's prices I think I'll stick with semi-auto or even Bolt actions. MG's are fun however.

As to what would I do if I inadvertently came across one. Hope to find out someday, for certain I would do the right thing. I'll leave you wondering what "Shall Not Be Infringed Means"

 

[General Geoff]

It may be necessary to develop a different check.

Only if you have no concept of what an autoloader is.

 

[Trebor]

A cursory examination and function check should tell you something's up... not to mention the fact that it says "M2" and not "M1".

A cursory look at a M2 Carbine might not help much.

Many M2 Carbines were later converted back to M1 status. The full-auto parts are all just drop in, after all.

That means there are plenty of "M2" marked carbines that will only fire semi-auto, and are essentially no different from any other M-1 Carbine.

The problem is, the ATF considers any carbine marked M2 to be a machine gun, whether or not any of the specific M2 parts are present or not.

So, unless someone knows that, a simple function check that confirms semi-auto only capability does not still keep them out of legal harm.

A M-2 Carbine is always a MG, whether or not it can fire full-auto, and there are plenty of them floating around out there.

 

[orionengnr]

Not exactly the same thing, but...

The first AR-15 I bought (used, almost 30 years ago) fired two rounds "on occasion".

Got me kicked off the range first (and only) time it happened. I was in CA at the time.

I replaced all the fire control parts (trigger, hammer, sear, selector). Worked as advertised after that, but I still worried about it and sold the rifle.

I'd probably do the same thing today.

I'm too old and skinny to spend the last 25 years of what I call a life in the...uh, pokey.

 

[deadin]

A M-2 Carbine is always a MG, whether or not it can fire full-auto, and there are plenty of them floating around out there.

And I believe that the CMP/DCM even sold some of them a number of years ago.

 

[danez71]

IMO, the only morality question here is if the garage seller gives your money back.

It can be argured for pages and pages here as to whether its buyer beware or not but IMO, seller should give money back. As a side note: I believe in another thread you stated buyer beware in reference to a rifle purchase with no mags .

Id quickly disassemble and break pieces to be non-op..... contact seller and ask for money back AND any paperwork you signed transferring ownership.... and use the NFA threat if needed to pursuade seller.

Depending how that went.... either contact lawyer...completely destroy...or possibly a no questions ask buy back is immediatly avail.

Keeping it is not even a thought in my mind.

 

[RDak]

Simply adjusting it so it doesn't go "rock-n-roll" doesn't change the ATF's definition of that weapon as an unregistered machine gun.
__________________

Interesting, I would have assumed that would take it out of the prohibited class. Learn something everyday.

The reason I'm surprised stems from all the M2 Carbines out there, but switched to semi-auto status.

 

[Sam1911]

The reason I'm surprised stems from all the M2 Carbines out there, but switched to semi-auto status.

Switched to semi-auto, perhaps, but the registered (or illegally unregistered!) status doesn't change.

The risk is in assuming that, because something is out there and occasionally to be found for sale, that it is kosher:

A M-2 Carbine is always a MG, whether or not it can fire full-auto, and there are plenty of them floating around out there.

Scary thought, eh?

 

[BeerSleeper]

If you try to return it to the seller, you are technically selling a firearm you know to be illegal. I'd hate to see what a politically motivated, ambitious prosecutor could do with that.

I'd consult a lawyer, and destroy whatever parts necessary to avoid running afoul of the law (maybe just the receiver, or the whole gun if necessary).

Whatever parts needs destroyed, I'd sooner do it myself than be identified, on record, as turning in an illegal arm to some amnesty program. Maybe it's the tinfoil hat, but that seems to me like getting on the radar. If I know which parts need destroyed, the cutting torch should make quick work of something no bigger than that.

 

[Sam1911]

Whatever parts needs destroyed, I'd sooner do it myself than be identified, on record, as turning in an illegal arm to some amnesty program. Maybe it's the tinfoil hat, but that seems to me like getting on the radar. If I know which parts need destroyed, the cutting torch should make quick work of something no bigger than that.

Um, but in cutting up the receiver wouldn't you be destroying evidence of a crime?

 

[bigfatdave]

wouldn't you be destroying evidence of a crime?

Notice the thread title is "A question of Morality", not "A question of unconstitutional laws that create victimless crimes"

 

[bigfatdave]

Scary thought, eh?

Scary how, exactly?
I highly doubt someone is just biding their time until they get an unregistered machine-gun to shoot up a school.

Are we a nation of citizens or a nation of pre-criminals? These infringements have got to go.

 

[Sam1911]

Scary how, exactly?

Scary in that there are things out there for sale that look and act just like legal "Title I" firearms but which can land you in federal prison for 10 years if you don't have the higher level of knowledge needed to avoid them. That's scary enough for me.

I highly doubt someone is just biding their time until they get an unregistered machine-gun to shoot up a school.

Uh...yeah. I doubt that, either. Since when does the legal status (or even mechanical operating characteristics) of a weapon have ANYTHING to do with whether someone would commit mass murder?

Are we a nation of citizens or a nation of pre-criminals?

Kind of depends on who you ask. Or at least on your point of view. Statisticians and some lawyers like to point out that there are so many tens of thousands (millions?) of laws on the books that it is statistically impossible for anyone to steer clear of violating some of them at some point. The truth or hyperbole of that statement is also probably difficult to prove!

These infringements have got to go.

A novel idea. Any thoughts on how to get rid of them?

 

[RDak]

Yeah, it's a "scary thought" because if I bought a carbine, I'm not expert enough to know if it was a M2 type originally.

 

[Corey]

I'm not expert enough to know if it was a M2 type originally.

Where it says "M2" on the receiver is the first clue

If it says M2 on it then ATF says it is a machine gun no matter what parts are in it, even if it is just the stripped receiver it is still a machine gun. If it does not say M2 on it, then it is only a machine gun if it will fire more than one shot with a single function of the trigger.

As to the original topic:
ATF in my experience is not interested in prosecuting people because their grandfather brought home something from the war that he shouldn't of. On the other hand, they are not going to let you keep it, either. I did have one experience with ATF that I discussed in another thread involving finding an unregistered machine gun (a MG-08 Maxim). They researched it to see if it had ever been registered and when no records could be found they made arrangements to take just the right sideplate (the registered part on that particular gun) leaving the rest to be reassembled as a dummy gun. The gun belonged to a VFW post and was part of a war memorial, nobody knew the gun was a live gun untill we were cleaning up the memorial.

 

[sonier]

OH man what a piece of history, so since the barrel is marked M-2 even if you swap with a semi auto only receiver its still a MG?

 

[Jim Watson]

I have a different angle on the problem, legality and morality aside. The OP says:

"Suppose you bought a 'war relic' rifle at a garage sale and on bringing it home discover it is full automatic."

Why are you buying something you can't identify? Are we now so affluent you can just buy stuff on looks with no knowledge? That is a rhetorical question, it happens every day on the gunboards: "I just bought this gun (picture or vague description), WHAT DID I GET?" But it is a foreign concept to me. The only way I would buy a gun at a garage sale would be with the thought "Wow, I have always wanted one of those." Just possibly "That looks interesting, if they still have it by the time I have looked it up, I MIGHT buy it."

 

[Corey]

OH man what a piece of history, so since the barrel is marked M-2 even if you swap with a semi auto only receiver its still a MG?

That marking in the photo is on the receiver, It doesn't matter for ATF purposes what is marked on the barrel.

BTW that is not my gun (but I wish it was).