A Rifle For Large North American Animals

[Ranger99]

444
It works

 

[Gun-Reck]

Think that the .30-06, with the Barnes 168 gr. Copper TSX bullet, would take all comers.

Especially with a semi-automatic rifle.

Would consider the 9.3x62mm, with it's 286 gr. bonded load, to be a fine choice if the ranges were going to be closer.

 

[KansasTrapper77]

.30-06, because its very common, very versatile, and very capable. And I understand you have Polar Bear on the list and while .30-06 might not be my first choice it definitely wouldn’t be my last because you have to be able to hit what you’re aiming at. Some of those “big boomers” as others have put it are just difficult to shoot well. I’d hazard a guess your average person can be taught to master a .30-06. I know my wife slings ‘em with scary precision, even when I have a perfectly good .243 Win for her . And back on the polar bears, if Wikipedia is to be believed The Danish Sirius Sled Dog Patrol still carries P-17s in .30-06 loaded alternating with AP and expanding bullets. And I’d hazard a guess they’ve shot more Polar Bear than I have.

 

[CraigC]

.30-06, because its very common, very versatile, and very capable. And I understand you have Polar Bear on the list and while .30-06 might not be my first choice it definitely wouldn’t be my last because you have to be able to hit what you’re aiming at. Some of those “big boomers” as others have put it are just difficult to shoot well. I’d hazard a guess you’re average person can be taught to master a .30-06. I know my wife slings ‘em with scary precision, even when I have a perfectly good .243 Win for her . And back on the polar bears, if Wikipedia is to be believed The Danish Sirius Sled Dog Patrol still carries P-17s in .30-06 loaded alternating with AP and expanding bullets. And I’d hazard a guess they’ve shot more Polar Bear than I have.

That's a cop-out. It keeps getting repeated that "shot placement is everything" and that's BS. Shot placement is great but it doesn't amount to a hill of beans if you're not using enough gun. Or the right bullet. It doesn't excuse a poor choice in weaponry.

That same dog patrol uses 10mm handguns for bear protection. So do a lot of other people who never shot anything bigger than deer with a handgun, if that. Doesn't make it a good idea. A polar bear can reach 1800lbs of fur, claws, meat and teeth. The 10mm is a joke for such purposes. At best, it's an adequate deer cartridge. This water buffalo was estimated at 1800-2000lbs. Even with a 300gr bronze solid at 1450fps, which is a better penetrator than a much heavier hardcast bullet, with another 12rds put into the carcass for post-mortem testing, most of them did not exit. What is a 180gr 10mm going to do on something just as big with an additional several inches of thick fur? Over the span of several years, probably a dozen of us killed dozens of similar critters with handguns, strictly to test bullets and loads. No one used anything smaller than a .41Mag and it was only used once, because it was found lacking in horsepower.

 

[d2wing]

I voted 30-06 for any large game but I don't plan on being anywhere near Brown bears I actually shoot a Tikka in 7-08. It will take anything I care to shoot
Ir is plenty for Moose, Elk, and Blackbears that we have here.

 

[anothernewb]

Not having any personal experience shooting anything larger than a deer - I went with 7mm mag. I think I grew up in a rather rare hunting-oriented household in america - that did not have a 30-06 (or a 308 for that matter) that I am aware of. I remember we had an entire cabinet full of shotguns for every occasion, a 22, a 30-30, grandpas old 30-40 krag, and an acient 45-70 he probably got from moses. then right to the browning in 7mm.

My dad however, loved hunting and stalking. He went everywhere and pretty much shot everything a place had to offer. Don't know if he ever dropped a polar bear. but he Loved going for elk and moose and bagged a grizzly at least once.
is it enough caliber? well - his pics and the meat in the freezer clearly say yes. But my dad also considered walking across my uncles farm fields and shooting deer on the run at ranges over 250 yards to be "much more sporting and fair" so take that FWIW. Of the times I was along to observe - I never saw him, or the BAR fail to do the job.

 

[Legionnaire]

@CraigC, great pic! ^^

 

[KansasTrapper77]

@CraigC. Any time someone biases caliber/cartridge size/power over shot placement I love to bring up Bella Twin a Cree woman who in 1953 shot at that time, the world record grizzly bear with a .22 Long, she did alright. OP kind of made it seem like he was asking what cartridge you had to pick if you could only pick one. And my answer is the one I thought most logical, most useful for a variety of situations. I would guess the Danish sled dog patrol had similar thoughts with a .30-06 rifle and a 10mm handgun. They might need it for polar bears or people. While a 10mm might be undergunned for a polar bear, a .475 Linebaugh would be undergunned in a firefight. I doubt a long range patrol chooses their weaponry lightly.

So for me personally the .30-06 would be the best all rounder with .300 Win mag as a close second If I was feeling undergunned.

But remember Townsend Whelen once wrote " the .30-06 is never a mistake."

 

[herrwalther]

I read one of the arctic organizations in one of the Scandinavian countries uses the M1917 to defend against big predators and I am just a huge believer in what the 30-06 can do

Specifically the Greenland sled patrols operated by the Dutch government use the 30-06 M917 rifle during artic patrols against polar bears. I have a white paper about it on my home PC. Something I stumbled upon after I won a sporterizeed M1917 in a lark auction. It made me feel much better about getting the rifle when I didn't know much about it at auction.

 

[Chuck R.]

444
It works

Ahhh, but under what conditions?

That's what's usually lacking in these threads.

Open country elk, there's no way I'd handicap myself with a 444. It's just not a cross canyon rig and that's what avoiding tag soup might take.

Put me back at the foot of St. Helens amongst the deadfalls where 100yds is a long shot, and it'd be awesome. At those distances a carbine in .358Win would be a better match than a long barreled rifle in .358 Norma. Friend of mine did very well with a Marlin 336 in .35Rem wearing irons. He hunted the same dense area year after year and knew the elk would be in there a few hours after the rifle season opened.

I spent one fall lugging a 26" barreled 8x68S over deadfalls, and through heavy timber before I saw the light. Actually I "saw the light" about half way through th 1st morning, but there wasn't anything I could do about it.

Sometimes it's all about the conditions

 

[KansasTrapper77]

Ahhh, but under what conditions?

That's what's usually lacking in these threads.

Open country elk, there's no way I'd handicap myself with a 444. It's just not a cross canyon rig and that's what avoiding tag soup might take.

Put me back at the foot of St. Helens amongst the deadfalls where 100yds is a long shot, and it'd be awesome. At those distances a carbine in .358Win would be a better match than a long barreled rifle in .358 Norma. Friend of mine did very well with a Marlin 336 in .35Rem wearing irons. He hunted the same dense area year after year and knew the elk would be in there a few hours after the rifle season opened.

I spent one fall lugging a 26" barreled 8x68S over deadfalls, and through heavy timber before I saw the light. Actually I "saw the light" about half way through th 1st morning, but there wasn't anything I could do about it.

Sometimes it's all about the conditions

I had similar thoughts, or else I might have said 45-70.

 

[CraigC]

@CraigC. Any time someone biases caliber/cartridge size/power over shot placement I love to bring up Bella Twin a Cree woman who in 1953 shot at that time, the world record grizzly bear with a .22 Long, she did alright. OP kind of made it seem like he was asking what cartridge you had to pick if you could only pick one. And my answer is the one I thought most logical, most useful for a variety of situations. I would guess the Danish sled dog patrol had similar thoughts with a .30-06 rifle and a 10mm handgun. They might need it for polar bears or people. While a 10mm might be undergunned for a polar bear, a .475 Linebaugh would be undergunned in a firefight. I doubt a long range patrol chooses their weaponry lightly.

I'm not putting anything over anything else. Both are extremely important. What I reject is the notion that "shot placement is everything". It's BS. I don't care who killed what with a .22LR, or what happened one time at band camp. That's not the kind of crap that should go through a person's mind when they're choosing a rifle/pistol/cartridge/bullet for dangerous game.

I would guess the Danish sled dog patrol had similar thoughts with a .30-06 rifle and a 10mm handgun. They might need it for polar bears or people. While a 10mm might be undergunned for a polar bear, a .475 Linebaugh would be undergunned in a firefight. I doubt a long range patrol chooses their weaponry lightly.

That is exactly why it should never be brought in as an example for what works against bears. Governments choose weapons for their service members for all sorts of reasons. Effectiveness against bears is not usually one of them. So I think I'll choose based on what I know works and what I know doesn't. Not what some European government chose for its people, for unknown reasons. What fire fights are dog sled patrols getting into anyway???

So for me personally the .30-06 would be the best all rounder with .300 Win mag as a close second If I was feeling undergunned.

Like I said, I would never intentionally go after an animal that can weigh 1000-1800lbs and eat me with a .30-06. If the `06 won't do it, what's another 200fps going to accomplish???

 

[H&Hhunter]

Like I said, I would never intentionally go after an animal that can weigh 1000-1800lbs and eat me with a .30-06. If the `06 won't do it, what's another 200fps going to accomplish???

This ^^^^^^^ right here! The ONLY thing more velocity in the same diameter and bullet weight buys you is slightly more max point blank range. A .300WM simply does not give you any meaningful advantage on large, thick skinned, heavy boned game over a .30-06.

I disagree with Craig that an 06 with the right bullet can’t be used effectively on all North American game because it can. And it’s not my first choice for big stuff but I don’t feel under gunned carrying an 06 in big bear country with 180 gr Barnes TSX or 200 gr Nosler or Swift A-Frames. Given my druthers I do now and have in the past carried my Stainless .375 H&H with 270 Gr Barnes TSX. It’s never let me down and I have ultimate confidence in the rifle and the caliber.

 

[DM~]

Like I said, I would never intentionally go after an animal that can weigh 1000-1800lbs and eat me with a .30-06. If the `06 won't do it, what's another 200fps going to accomplish???

A 30-06 loaded with 200NP's is big bear medicine. I've seen them used and used them myself, and they work!

I'm NOT a fan of other bullet choices, but 200NP's have no problem doing the job.

I spent a lot of time hunting big bears and that's my opinion, and Phil Showmaker has always felt the same way, I couldn't find our direct conversations on this subject, but I did find this fairly fast. This was on the subject of big bears,

I really; like the 7mm mag. loaded with 175NP's too, when loaded that way, it's a very good big bear round.

DM

 

[Chief TC]

A 30-06 loaded with 200NP's is big bear medicine. I've seen them used and used them myself, and they work!

I'm NOT a fan of other bullet choices, but 200NP's have no problem doing the job.

I spent a lot of time hunting big bears and that's my opinion, and Phil Showmaker has always felt the same way, I couldn't find our direct conversations on this subject, but I did find this fairly fast. This was on the subject of big bears,

I really; like the 7mm mag. loaded with 175NP's too, when loaded that way, it's a very good big bear round.

DM

I'll listen to this guy that has real world experience. Again, the 30-06 with the right load is not a wrong choice. 30-06 can get it done.

 

[WisBorn]

I firmly believe that the 300 magnums additional velocity and energy from that velocity is more effective on big game over the 30-06. Not that the 30-06 cannot perform adequately. The 300 mags will deliver more energy on target with the same bullet at all distances.
So 200 fps extra velocity equals 450 #s of energy with a 180 grain bullet.

 

[CraigC]

A 30-06 loaded with 200NP's is big bear medicine. I've seen them used and used them myself, and they work!

I'm NOT a fan of other bullet choices, but 200NP's have no problem doing the job.

I spent a lot of time hunting big bears and that's my opinion, and Phil Showmaker has always felt the same way, I couldn't find our direct conversations on this subject, but I did find this fairly fast. This was on the subject of big bears,

I really; like the 7mm mag. loaded with 175NP's too, when loaded that way, it's a very good big bear round.

DM

Very familiar with Shoemaker and his preferences. He also carries a 9mm pistol and even stopped a charge with it. WDM Bell also killed a trainload of elephants with a 7x57. Doesn't mean I'm going to follow suit. Everyone is free to place their trust in whatever they like. I'm going to err on the heavy side, rather than depend on granddad's ole deer rifle for everything under the sun, because it's the popular choice.

I firmly believe that the 300 magnums additional velocity and energy from that velocity is more effective on big game over the 30-06. Not that the 30-06 cannot perform adequately. The 300 mags will deliver more energy on target with the same bullet at all distances.
So 200 fps extra velocity equals 450 #s of energy with a 180 grain bullet.

Energy doesn't kill anything. On big critters, you don't need that, you need more penetration. Given the same bullet, all you're doing is flattening trajectory and increasing expansion, which decreases penetration.

 

[WisBorn]

Very familiar with Shoemaker and his preferences. He also carries a 9mm pistol and even stopped a charge with it. WDM Bell also killed a trainload of elephants with a 7x57. Doesn't mean I'm going to follow suit. Everyone is free to place their trust in whatever they like. I'm going to err on the heavy side, rather than depend on granddad's ole deer rifle for everything under the sun, because it's the popular choice.




Energy doesn't kill anything. On big critters, you don't need that, you need more penetration. Given the same bullet, all you're doing is flattening trajectory and increasing expansion, which decreases penetration.

Bullet design is Bullet design! Bonded bullets and partion designs have been killing big animals for decades!
That is a fact.
The additional energy of a magnum will deliver additional penetration with well designed bullets.
If energy doesn't matter than a 454 is the same as 45 colt on big game.

 

[DM~]

Here's a good example for you, an 8mm 200NP will penetrate much deeper when driven with an 8mm Rem. Mag., than it will out of an 8x57 loaded to 2,550fps. The 8x57 is a little too light for ME to use it on big bears, but I'd have NO problem with using the 8 mag..

Again, with both loaded with 200NP's, I've shot truckloads of big game with the 8x57 as loaded above; I know exactly what it will do.

I feel the same way about the 30cal. 200NP, 300mag. drives it a little faster and on average, it penetrates deeper.

Same with the 280 VS the 7 Rem. Mag., and the 175NP.

The 30-06 loaded with 200NP's will take out the spine of a charging bear, and that's the only way you can stop a charging bear. For side shots, I prefer the high shoulder shot, and then if needed, I walk up and put in a finisher. You have plenty of time, it's not going anywhere...

DM

 

[jstert]

i’m not a hunter and my own rifles are all rimfire so forgive my comment but…if i were to have one centerfire rifle to rule the northern forests it would be the sks 7.62x39. reliable, built like a brick outhouse, accurate enough in my dismal hands, (formerly?) cheap and common, semiautomatic to put lots of fast rounds on target, easy to fieldstrip, even a bayonet if it comes to that. is 7.62x39 sufficiently powerful? isn’t this surplus rifle and caliber already popular among northern woodsmen in the usa, canada, russia?

 

[StrawHat]

Caribou ,.Elk ,Moose, Musk Ox , Grizzlies, Polar Bears, etc.

What is the rifle you would first reach for in the hunt?

I have two that I have used, depending on close range or a bit farther out.

For the close stuff, a customized Springfield Model 1866 in 50/70.

For a bit more reach, a customized Winchester Model 1895 chambered for the 405 WCF.

Kevin

 

[MikeInOr]

If a 30-06 won't effectively harvest it, you probably shouldn't be shooting at it!

 

[CraigC]

Methinks some folks believe in magic.

If you drive the same expanding bullet faster, it's going to expand more and penetrate less. That's how it works.

Bullet design is Bullet design! Bonded bullets and partion designs have been killing big animals for decades!
That is a fact.
The additional energy of a magnum will deliver additional penetration with well designed bullets.
If energy doesn't matter than a 454 is the same as 45 colt on big game.

Energy is a meaningless number. Do you really think a 360gr WLN is going to be more suitable for larger game just because it's 200fps faster? Uh, no. Literally books have been written that debunk the energy myth and I wrote a section in one of them. Case in point, the water buffalo I pictured above was killed with a load that generates the same energy as the .22-250. It broke shoulders, perforated the heart/lungs and some even exited. What does energy tell us about that? It tells me we need a better measuring stick.

 

[Bronco72]

If I was really really skeerd I'd bring my 50-110! 530gr lfn gc hard cast @ 1900fps But I am a huge fan of the Nosler Partitions and usually have 180 grs in my 06. Probably go heavier if I was going for the big bruins on purpose.
JMHO.

 

[DM~]

Methinks some folks believe in magic.

If you drive the same expanding bullet faster, it's going to expand more and penetrate less. That's how it works.

True in most cases, but NOT when it comes to NP's, you obviously haven't used them or just don't know how they work!

DM