About the different abbreviations for ammunition?

[17poundr]

Hello, could somebody help me in giving a link to a sight where they explain all of the letter combos for different ammo? Or if you know it yourself, please let us know, because I'm a little bewildered and I have a multitude of questions, but for starters can you give me a kind of 'quick guide for the dumb' on the letter combo's for different bullets???

I know the main ones, FMJ is Full Metal Jacket, and JHP is Jacketed Hollow Point...

but when we get into the weird ones like SPS or TMJ, then I'm completely lost!

Like I was reading about the very, very appeticing handgun from Para, called the Para limited edition nite-tac. It's in .45caliber, and holds 14rounds! And it's a metal gun, yep, no mega recoil like some say the otherwize appealing Springfield XD has!

Anyway, it costs only 1100usd, which I think is a good price for a good 1911 with a double stack, and praises from the writers in Combat Handguns magazine...

Anyway, they were shooting different loads of '45', and the apc seems just to mean '45automatic', but I could be wrong... Then there was a 165grain PB, but that one I figured out, it was a Pow'r'Ball!

Then there was one I couldnt figure out, the Speer Lawman 230grain TMJ...??? Never heard of a TMJ... Anyway, I went to an ammo sight, which turned out to be just a glorified web shop for the US market, and I saw all these weird letter combo's... Now I know there is the 'ball ammo, or JMJ, and HP or JHP for the hollow points, and names like PB, for fancy expanding bullets...

And this was just handgun ammunition... The there are the various rifle bullets, and shotgun ammo, which I must admit I know nothing of. Wouldnt mind learning the starters though...

So, any help is most welcome, if you have a link for a page with list of all the 'nicknames' of the various ammo styles, and explains the difference between them, I would love to know!

And, If I ever get to the UK long enough to get into a gun club, I'll see if I can get my hand's on a EAA, or is it EEA, 10mm semi auto! (When I browsed for 10mm ammo, I found some really deadly looking ammo called Frangibles, apparently they just burst into shards of schrapnel upon impact, is this legal)?

If I reach the US I think I would perhaps first get a Beretta storm, just because it is so cheap and a Beretta cannot be puny, also it seems to have a stricker on it, which I like, and I like it's looks... But ofcourse I would want to try it out first...

Any word on the best 9mm ammo? I would love to try the Cor-Bon PB, but then again, I would love to try everything I read in gun mags and on the net! Lot's of paper targets have been shot to ribbons in my dreams...


Then I would get that cheap 9mm or .40cal carbine from Kel-Tec, it was deemed as a very good home defence weapon... Or the Taurus 'Judge', but that ofcourse necessitates being very close to a snake, or human agressor, and that is something to avoid if being attacked! I think I would rather run from a rattler than stand and try to hit it if it was a normal gun!

But, worst scenario's are exactly that, one in a million... So, I would like a good practical gun, and I thinks that STI would be my choise... Or if I got very rich, an Infinity arms .40cal, with a ceramic barrel and all that... (By the way, do Ceramic barrels wear at all, and if so, how fast compared to a good steel barrel)?

But enough of my prattling... And if you can help on those ammo names, I would be most thankful!

Yours truly,

MR Poundr.

 

[esheato]

Top right on your screen...THR Library.

Also, TMJ is Total Metal Jacket.

 

[Ron James]

esheato, three tours at Humprey
Ron James

 

[Hunter0924]

.45 ACP is incorrect in defining the cartridge. ACP is Automatic Colt Pistol which defines the pistol, the correct term for the cartridge is .45 Automatic.

 

[esheato]

Ron,

I'll have an OB for you tonight.

I'm out of here in two weeks though. What's that song by Neil Diamond? Oh yeah, Coming to America.

Ed

Sorry for the thread drift. To make it up to you, here are some links:

Handloads.com
Wikipedia
Modern Firearms

 

[AndyC]

.45 ACP is incorrect in defining the cartridge. ACP is Automatic Colt Pistol which defines the pistol, the correct term for the cartridge is .45 Automatic.

.45 ACP is just fine.

 

[alucard0822]

Bullet acronyms
ACC — Accelerator
AP — Armor Piercing (has a steel or other hard metal core)
BBWC — Bevel Base Wadcutter
BEB — Brass Enclosed Base
BT — Boat-Tail
BTHP — Boat Tail Hollow Point
CB — Cast Bullet
CL — Core-Lokt
DEWC — Double Ended Wadcutter
FMJ — Full Metal Jacket
FN — Flat Nose
FP — Flat Point
FST — Fail Safe Talon
GD — Gold Dot
GDHP — Gold Dot Hollow Point
GS — Golden Saber
HBWC — Hollow Base Wadcutter
HC — Hard Cast
HP — Hollow Point
HPJ — High Performance Jacketed
HS — Hydra Shok
HST — Hi-Shok Two
J — Jacketed
JFP — Jacketed Flat Point
JHC — Jacketed Hollow Cavity
JHP — Jacketed Hollow Point
JSP — Jacketed Soft Point
L — Lead
L-C — Lead Combat
L-T — Lead Target
LFN — Long Flat Nose
LFP — Lead Flat Point
LHP — Lead Hollow Point
LRN — Lead Round Nose
LSWC — Lead Semi-Wadcutter
LSWC-GC — Lead Semi-Wadcutter Gas Checked
LWC — Lead WadCutter
LTC — Lead Truncated Cone
MC — Metal Cased
MRWC — Mid-Range Wadcutter
+P — Plus P (10-15% overpressure)
+P+ — Plus P Plus (20-25% overpressure)
PB — Lead Bullet
PB — Parabellum
PL — Power-Lokt
PSP — Plated Soft Point
PSP — Pointed Soft Point
RN — Round Nose
RNFP — Round Nose Flat Point
RNL — Round Nosed Lead
SJ — Semi Jacketed
SJHP — Semi Jacketed Hollow Point
SJSP — Semi-Jacketed Soft Point
SP — Soft Point
SP — Spire Point
SPTZ — Spitzer
ST — Silver Tip
STHP — Silver Tip Hollow Point
SWC — Semi Wadcutter
SX — Super Explosive
SXT — Supreme Expansion Talon
TC — Truncated Cone
TMJ — Total Metal Jacket
VLD — Very Low Drag
WC — Wadcutter
WLN — Wide Long Nose
WSM — Winchester Short Magnum
WSSM — Winchester Super Short Magnum
XTP — Extreme Terminal Performance


many like SXT(winchester) and XTP(hornady) are proprietary abbreviations with some buzzword flair, but this is most of them pasted from wikipedia.

 

[matt87]

And, If I ever get to the UK long enough to get into a gun club, I'll see if I can get my hand's on a EAA, or is it EEA, 10mm semi auto! (When I browsed for 10mm ammo, I found some really deadly looking ammo called Frangibles, apparently they just burst into shards of schrapnel upon impact, is this legal)?

Not bloody likely I'm afraid; it's a section 5 prohibited weapon and so you're not likely to ever see one or hear of one being in the country, let alone own one.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

.45 ACP is incorrect in defining the cartridge. ACP is Automatic Colt Pistol which defines the pistol, the correct term for the cartridge is .45 Automatic.

I respectfully disagree. .45 ACP (for "Automatic Colt Pistol") is the correct nomenclature for the cartridge.

What it is NOT is a description of the bullet. .45 ACP cartidges may come loaded with FMJ (full metal jacket), JHP (jacketed hollow point), SWC (semi-wadcutter), or a number of other types of bullets. Especially when you get into hollow-points, many of the ammo manufacturers use their own nomenclature for what is, essectially, a jacketed hollow point.

An excellent place to begin researching this is a copy of the printed shooters' catalog from The Sportsmans Guide Company. Under their ammunition listings, they print a legend that gives the English translation of the 3- to 5-letter bullet type abbreviations. Alucard0822's post above is also pretty complete, although it's too bad it doesn't distinguish between those acronyms that are generic and those that are proprietary.

 

[Bobo]

This is a list of acronyms and abbreviations for ammunition that I have been compiling. It keeps getting longer because of new designs and manufacturer's marketing ideas, such as Hornady's new "TAP FPD" ammo. Hornady seems to be the leader in inventing and trade marking acronyms.

Any additions and/or corrections to this list will be appreciated.

+P = Contains a higher powder charge than normal (10-15% overpressure).
+P+ = Contains a much higher powder charge than normal (20-25% overpressure).
A = A-Frame (Swift)
ACC = Accelerator
ACEL = Accelerator Discharging (or Discarding) Sabots
ACP = Auto Colt Pistol
A-MAX = Polymer tipped long range target bullet (Hornady)
AP = Armor Piercing (has a steel or other hard metal core) (Military)
API = Armor Piercing Incendiary (Military)
APT = Armor Piercing Tracer (Military)
APTI = Armor Piercing Tracer Incendiary (Military)
AT-BT = AccuTip Boat Tail (Remington)
BBWC = Bevel Base Wad Cutter
BD or Ball, Duplex = M198 - Contains two bullets (Military)
BE = Berdan Primed (no central flash hole, not easily reloadable)
BEB = Brass Enclosed Base
BEE = FP varmint bullet for .218 Bee (Hornady)
BJHP = Brass Jacketed Hollow Point
BO - Boxer primed (central flash hole, easily reloadable)
BP = Bronze Point
BT = Boat Tail, also Black Talon (Winchester)
BTBT = Ballistic Tip BoatTail (Nosler)
BTHP = Boat Tail Hollow Point
BTM = Boat Tail Match
BTSP = Boat Tail Soft Point
C/T = Combat Target (Hornady)
CB = Cast Bullet
CL = Core-Lokt (Remington)
CL-SIL = Cannelure - Silhouette (Hornady)
CLU = Core-Lokt Ultra (Remington)
CMJ = Complete Metal Jacket
CNL = Conical Nose Lead
CO[R] - Corrosive (primer leaves a salt residue that corrodes the barrel)
CP = Cone Point
DEWC = Double Ended Wad Cutter - can load either way (Cast Bullet)
DPX = Deep Penetrating X (Cor-Bon cartridge with a Barnes X all copper hollow-point bullet)
EFMJ = Expanding Full Metal Jacket (Federal)
EP = Expanding Point
FEB = Fully Encased Bullet
FMC = Full Metal Case
FMJ = Full Metal Jacket
FMJBT = Full Metal Jacket Boat Tail
FMJ-ENC = Full Metal Jacket - Encapsulated (Hornady)
FMJFN = Full Metal Jacket Flat Nose
FMJFP = Full Metal Jacket Flat Point
FMJRN = Full Metal Jacket Round Nose
FMJRP = Full Metal Jacket Round Point
FMJSWC = Full Metal Jacket Semi-Wad Cutter
FMJTC = Full Metal Jacket Truncated Cone
FN = Flat Nose
FNEB = Flat Nose Enclosed Base
FNSP = Flat Nose Soft Point
FP = Flat Point
FS or Fail-Safe = Partition bullet with steel bands around lead cores. (Winchester)
FST = Fail Safe Talon
GAP = Glock Auto Pistol
GC = Gas Check (Cast Bullet)
GD = Gold Dot (Speer)
GDHP = Gold Dot Hollow Point
GS = Golden Saber (Remington)
GS = Grand Slam (CCI)
HAP = Hornady Action Pistol (Hornady)
HBWC = Hollow Base Wad Cutter
HC = Hard Cast
HE = High Energy
HM = Heavy Magnum
HMR = Hornady Magnum Rimfire
HORNET = Extra thin jacket for .22 Hornet (Hornady)
HP = Hollow Point
HPBT = Hollow Point Boat Tail
HPJ = High Performance Jacketed
HPWC = Hollow Point Wad Cutter
HS = Hydra Shok (Federal)
HS & HS2 = Hi Shok & Hi Shok 2 (Federal)
HSP = Hornady Soft Point, also Hollow Soft Point
HST = (no actual meaning) a type of hollow-point (Federal)
I = Interlock (Hornady)
IB = Interbond (Hornady)
IRT = Indoor Range Training (Federal)
J = Jacketed
JET = FP for 22 Rem Jet revolver (Hornady)
JFP = Jacketed Flat Point
JHC = Jacketed Hollow Cavity, (Sierra jacketed hollow point)
JHP = Jacketed Hollow Point
JHPBT = Jacketed Hollow Point Boat Tail
JSP = Jacketed Soft Point
JSPF = Jacketed Soft Point Flat
JSZ = Jacketed Stranded Zinc (Federal)
L = Lead
LBT = Lead Bullet Technology
LF = Lead Free (Nontoxic)
LFN = Long Flat Nose (LBT design), also Lead Flat Nose
LFP = Lead Flat Point
LGC = Lead Gas Check (Cast Bullet)
LHP = Lead Hollow Point
LM = Light Magnum
L-N-L = Lock-N-Load (Hornady)
LRN = Lead Round Nose
LSWC = Lead Semi-Wad Cutter
LSWC-GC = Lead Semi-Wad Cutter, Gas Checked
L-C = Lead Combat
L-T = Lead Target
LTC = Lead Truncated Cone
LWC = Lead Wad Cutter
MB = Multi Ball (Shot)
MC = Metal Cased (basically FMJ)
MJ = Metal Jacket
MK-BTHP = MatchKing Boat Tail Hollow Point (Remington)
MON = Monolithic Solid
MRWC = Mid-Range Wadcutter
MR-X = Improved TS with poly tip & tungsten rear core (Barnes)
NBT = Nosler Ballistic Tip
NC - Non-corrosive (primer does not leave a corrosive salt residue)
NM - Non-Mercuric (mercuric primers have not been made for decades, but some ammunition sellers use "NM" hoping the customer will think it means "NC" when the primers really are corrosive. Can also mean National Match in some ammunition.
NOS = Nosler
NOSBT = Nosler Ballistic Tip
NP = Nosler Partition
P = Plated
PB = Parabellum
PG = Partition Gold (Winchester)
PL = Power-Lokt
PP = Power Point
Pro-Tex Bore = Lead bullet with a zinc washer cast in base (Cast Bullet)
PSP = Pointed Soft Point
PSPCL = Pointed Soft Point Core-Lokt (Remington)
R.E.A.L. = Rifling-Engraved-At-Loading (Lee muzzle loader bullet)
RN = Round Nose
RNFP = Round Nose Flat Point
RNL = Round Nosed Lead
RNSP = Round Nose Soft Point
RHT = Reduced Hazard Training (Federal and CCI/Speer low toxicity bullet)
S&W = Smith and Wesson
SBBT = Soft Point Boat Tail
SC - Steel core (might be AP)
SC or ST - Steel case
SCHP = Solid Copper Hollow Point
SFHP = Starfire Hollow Point (PMC)
SHP = Speer Hollow Point
SJ = Semi Jacketed, also Short Jacket (Hornady)
SJ - Steel jacket
SJHP = Semi Jacketed Hollow Point, also Soft Jacket Hollow Point
SJSP = Soft Jacket Soft Point
SLAP = Saboted Light Armor Penetrating
SOL = Solid
SP = Soft Point, also Spire Point, also Spotter-Tracer (Military)
SPSX = Spire Point Super Explosive (Hornady)
SPTZ = Spitzer
SSB = Swift Scirocco Bonded (Remington)
SSP = Single-Shot Pistol (Hornady)
SST = Super Shock Tip (Hornady)
ST = Silver Tip HP (Winchester)
ST or SC - Steel case
STHP = SilverTip Hollow Point (Winchester)
Sub = Subsonic
SWC = Semi Wad Cutter
SX = Super Explosive
SXT = Supreme Expansion Technology (Winchester)
TAP FPD = Tactical Ammunition Police - For Personal Defense (Hornady)
TB = Trophy Bonded
TBS = Trophy Bonded Solid
TC = Truncated Cone
TCMJ = Truncated Cone Metal Jacket
TCSP = Truncated Cone Soft Point
THP = Tubular Hollow Point
TL = Tumble Lube (Lee)
TMJ = Total Metal Jacket -- like FMJ, but the copper jacket even wraps the rear of the bullet and totally encapsulates the lead. Also CMJ, FEB
TNT = TNT hollow point (Speer)
TRI = Triad Group (A Square)
TRU = Tactical Rifle Urban (Federal)
TS or Triple-Shock = Improved X-bullet (Barnes)
UHC = Ultra High Coefficient (Hornady)
VLD = Very Low Drag
V-MAX = V-Max Polymer Tip Varmint Hunting Bullet (Hornady)
V-MAXBT = V-Max Boat Tail (Hornady)
W/C = With Cannelure (Hornady)
WC = Wad Cutter
WLN = Wide Long Nose (LBT design)
WLY = Woodleigh
WMR = Winchester Magnum Rimfire
WSM = Winchester Short Magnum
WSSM = Winchester Super Short Magnum
X or X-bullet = Solid copper hollow-point bullet (Barnes)
XP3 = FS without the steel bands (Winchester)
XTP = Extreme Terminal Performance (Hornady jacketed hollow point)

 

[Jim K]

Other abbreviations often seen in connection with ammunition:

AP - Armor piercing (there are restrictions on the sale of some AP ammunition)
API - Armor piercing incendiary
APT - Armor piercing tracer
BE - Berdan primed (no central flash hole, not easily reloadable)
BO - Boxer primed (central flash hole, easily reloadable)
NC - Non-corrosive (primer does not leave a corrosive salt residue)
CO[R] - Corrosive (primer leaves a salt residue that corrodes the barrel)
NM - Non-Mercuric (mercuric primers have not been made for decades, but some ammunition sellers use "NM" hoping the customer will think it means "NC" when the primers really are corrosive. Can also mean National Match in some ammunition.
ST or SC - Steel case
SC - Steel core (might be AP)
SJ - Steel jacket

Jim

 

[Bobo]

Thanks Jim,

I added those to my list.

Bobo

 

[esmith]

.45 ACP is incorrect in defining the cartridge. ACP is Automatic Colt Pistol which defines the pistol, the correct term for the cartridge is .45 Automatic.

No it's not. When i hear people say .45 ACP, i know they mean .45 Automatic Colt Pistol. When i hear people say .45 LC, i know they mean .45 Long Colt. There are such things as synonyms.

 

[Neo-Luddite]

Even if the box and kid behind the counter say 'auto' what I ASKED FOR were .45 & .32 ACP.

Just like it's .45 GAP (uh-huh, no further comment from me)
or .40 S&W Auto (SWA? anyone call it that?)

and it's 7.62 x 39 Soviet (or Russian--maybe), but properly 7.62 x 54 Russian

But I digress...this isn't what 17 Poundr is getting at.

Lets talk about the definition of 'Ball' ammo, shall we--just kidding.

 

[trickyasafox]

PB could be power ball - but Pb is usually used for lead. (periodic table symbol for it) PB could also be plain base

J almost always stands for jacketed, H is almost always hollow
F refers to Full
BT is boat tail

and its not 7.62x54 Russian- its Rimmed- common misconception.

PS welcome to the board!

 

[17poundr]

Thanks For The Great Info Guys!!!

YAY! So much helpful info, I must remember to say to Europeans who go into an automatic 'anti US comment', that politics aside, your average American is very helpful and friendly, I know as I travelled there for seven weeks back in 88. And this feedback to my question only goes to show that it's still true...

This was again seen in the great ammount of info that Bobo and Jim Keenan, who put on the abbreviations of bullet's that I didnt even know existed, and all the ones I had wondered about...

And thanks to matt87 for the advice on the 10mm handgun being illegal (well, practically, I belive you have to be somekind of super collector, or army staff who expertises in trying out ballistics ect, to have a level 5 permit)?

I would love to know the qualifications of the British system, but I suppose I can dig it out from the Brit NRA's site myself... Or that failing just google it.

And about the '45 controvercy', , I remember an article in one of the US gun mags from about two years ago, and I believe it was an old cop, who was writing about something that had the 45apc in it, and he said, that although people normally spell the 45 Auto, as '45apc', he used the 'old' system, which was simply adding dot's or such, like this: 45A.P.C. -or- 45.a.p.c.

Personally, I have seen it usually as 45apc, or sometimes as 45AUTO. I suppose both are considered 'Cosher', in the shooting circles...?

Anyway, thanks for the list of abbreviations! I'll paste it and have it as a file so that I can look up any weird letter combo, when I do my 'window shopping' on the net from Europe, where one just cannot go and get a gun that would give me immence amounts of a good hobby, especially trying medium to long range shooting on a long gun, and my main dream ofcourse to start Practical shooting...

I wonder what ammo is allowed in British practical shooting if they already consider the 10mm as a 'no, no'??? I suppose 1911's, firing 38super are also out of the 'winda'...

Anyway, thanks again!

Mr Poundr.

PS.
Here are pic's of some of 'my dream guns', I wonder, which would be 'ok', in Britain?? (if any)?

I put in a dpms panther in 308cal, with an 18inch barrel, and a nice looking sight, then there is an Infinity HI-cap, I gather that these can also be 'hand picked', in that you can request enhanced bit's, so that you get a tailor made gun, in a Finnish gun magazine, one gun club, ordered an Infinity arms gun in .40s&w, with a ceramic barrel among other things, and it got all the praise a handgun can!!!

Then I put in a Gary Reeder Cowboy gun, I'm no expert, but I gather these are good guns,and If I had the chance, I would collect a Cowboy gun for shure!

Also, one of the gun firms that have taken my eye while reading US gun magazines, and prowling on the net, is of course the STI gun series, they shure seem to be good guns, if not the lighter ones on the planet, but apparently this is more than made up when shooting, apparently one of the 5inch barrelled two stack models in .40s&w had a recoil similar to most .22lr pistols!!! And, they are very well made too I gather...

And, my personal 'drooling when ever I think of getting one' gun, is the Armalite AR-30 in 338lapua, and the win300MAG... I wonder if this can hit true over one km, as the best '338' and WinMag300's, can??? I remember one gun mag testing a new long range gun, that was kind of a special order, with components from many manufacturers, and this gun shot accurately and consistently to 1400meters! Now, that's getting close to one mile!

I had to miss out many others, like many of the AR-15 variants that are out there, and ofcourse in the handguns, part of the 'polymer revolution', I would love to have a Springfield XD in 9mm, and a Beretta Storm (which I gather has also polymer for it's outer frame...

Also the AR-24 seems like a good old all steel gun, and talking of which, I would go for a Browning Hi Cap in either 9mm or .40 depending on the recoil, and a .22 Buckmark for plinking, and varmints when camping (If I was to go camping really deep, where larger predatory animals are sometimes to be found, I suppose a cowboy gun firing the classic .45 is a good choise, I read an article of a fisherman stopping a bear with one! Or, a Colt Python, I fired one in the Helsinki Shooting Club, and it was just great! Much better than the one (from a company that I think everybody can guess when talking about revolvers of the Colt Python quality, but my knowledge is so limited that I do not wish to malign their name, as I havent really shot but only one of their guns), that was similar, only having a longer barrel...

And, the Sig 226 and H&K USP (along with many of their other models, and probably the Steyr and Walther handguns are good too), have many an appealing hand gun in their ranks. Infact, I wouldnt mind having any of the above mentioned

Then the Springfield M-1 in 30-06, is a must I belive, and for shotguns, I suppose I would support Finlands northenly neighbour Sweden in the Mossberg shotguns, which must be as good as any else, or they wouldnt be so popular...

Last but not least there is the Springfield and Ruger models of the M-14, which now have various names, but the basic model is known to everybody, I shure would love one of those! Oh, And while on the classic guns somekind of 1911 in 45apc would be good, I like the two stack one's simply as seven rounds seem's mean, to somebody who was trained on a ten round FN, a good all round semi auto that the Finnish military had back in 1990-91... Now they have a Walther-99 in 9mmParabellum I belive. I would love to get one of the new FN's, that have a larger capacity than 10 rounds, and an option for .40S&W now.

But for the 1911 I belive the Auto-Ordnance 14x45apc in the full five inch barrel configuration is pretty good (price wize too)... And there are many others, some with slightly less, but still more than the seven or eight that come in otherwize perfect guns, only too little ammo for my taste (I guess an 8 round 1911 with one in the barrel gives one 9 shots, and that's plenty for self defence or any range where five shots is the norm)... Then again, if I was to be given a really good classic style 1911 as a gift, I would be jumping with joy! So, many guns to marvel at, but not enough space to put their pic's up... Anyway, I think you guys know what most of the guns I described look like!

PPSS..
While I'm at it, as I'm half Finnish, and half British, and have done my national service in the Army of Finland, I naturally learned all the names for things on guns in Finnish, therefore, I do not get some of the terms that must be automatically clear to people in the US or Britain...

I would like to know what do such things as a 'dovetailed front sight', or a 'bevelled' gun mean...

Also, I'm not quite shure on a DA/SA guns workings, does it mean, that the first shot can be fired although the stricker is down, and like in most modern revolvers, you can use a pull that requires more power to pull up the stricker and then fire down, but unlicke on the revover where you have to do this every time (or go and cock the stricker your self), this gun is like any SA semi-auto after the first shot, the stricker stays up, and the trigger action get's a whole deal easier on the finger muscles...

Am I right in this? And that in many modern SA-DA models, if you shoot a 'dud' , or a bad primer, you can use the same system that you use when firing that first shot in DA mode, to go for a new shot just incase it would fire the rickety primer???

Maybe stupid questions to many who are into the gun culture, but please understand that sometimes not knowing all of the words connected to guns, in english, makes for this kind of questions...

Thanks for everything again.

 

[Mannix]

For the average Joe, it's nearly(perhaps totally) impossible to legally acquire ANY center fire handgun in the UK, as it falls under the definition of a section 5 weapon, as do all non .22 rimfire semiautomatic rifles. The one on the far right, which looks like a bolt action, would still require a firearms certificate, which, IIRC, is may issue(you have to show why they should let you have it).

Here's everything that falls under section 5:

Section 5 (1)

1. any firearm which is so designed or adapted that two or more missiles can be successively discharged without repeated pressure on the trigger.
1. (1.1) any self-loading or pump-action rifled gun other than one which is chambered for .22 rim-fire cartridges.
2. (1.2) any firearm which either has a barrel less than 30cm in length or is less than 60cm in length overall, other than an air weapon, a muzzle-loading gun or a firearm designed as signalling apparatus.
3. (1.3) any self-loading or pump-action smooth bore gun which is not an air weapon or chambered for .22 rim-fire cartridges and either has a barrel less than 24 inches in length or is less than 40 inches in length overall.
4. (1.4) any smooth bore revolver gun other than one which is chambered for 9mm rim-fire cartridges or a muzzle-loading gun.
5. (1.5) any rocket launcher, or any mortar, for projecting a stabilised missile, other than a launcher or mortar designed for line throwing or pyrotechnic purposes or as signalling apparatus.
6. (1.6) any air rifle, airgun or air pistol which uses, or is designed or adapted for use with, a self-contained gas cartridge system.
2. any weapon of whatever description designed or adapted for the discharge of any noxious liquid, gas or other thing.
3. any cartridge with a bullet so designed to explode on or immediately before impact, any ammunition containing or designed or adapted to contain any such noxious thing as is mentioned in paragraph (2) above and, if capable of being used with a firearm of any description, any grenade, bomb or other like missile, or rocket or shell designed to explode as aforesaid

Here in the US it's easy in most places to get any rifle or pistol(aside from fully automatics) so long as you're a legal resident and have no criminal record. Though certain areas make it a little harder by requiring permits or banning certain firearm features. Unfortunately silencers are a major pain to get, and illegal in many states.

 

[17poundr]

Mannix, as I have no criminal record. I would love to come over to your state, and start collecting and shooting... But as for now, my financial cituation beats me from moving to the USA... Maybe some day...

Do, you know of the sport where people just get any long rifle (but nothing in the massive calibers I belive, meaning that a Barret 50cal is out), but they say that getting an M1, in 30-06 is good enough, and I have seen guys with AR-15, or AR-10 based rigs, (with possibly slight alterations, like a new barrel-upper assembly from some firm that gives better quality barrels ect)...

Exactly what is this sport called? I seem to remember it had only iron sights, no optics allowed, which of course gives some of the old ww1-ww2 era guns (many of the classic bolt actions made even today, have similar 'innards', to ww2 era Springfield, Lee-Enflield, Mosin Nagant and ofcourse the Mauser 98), somekind of advantage I belive?

Although many an AR based free floater barrel firing in 308cal, are starting to get into the same kind of accuracy as the bolt actions... Is this true, or just arround the corner in regurlar off the shelf guns?

Anyway, do you know the name of this particular sport? You guys in the US have so many interesting rifle and handgun sports going on that I get confused...

 

[Mannix]

I'm not much into the specific sports, and to tell you the truth the differences between them confuse me too.

I think we need a list for those too .

 

[Dorryn]

Also, I'm not quite shure on a DA/SA guns workings, does it mean, that the first shot can be fired although the stricker is down, and like in most modern revolvers, you can use a pull that requires more power to pull up the stricker and then fire down, but unlicke on the revover where you have to do this every time (or go and cock the stricker your self), this gun is like any SA semi-auto after the first shot, the stricker stays up, and the trigger action get's a whole deal easier on the finger muscles...

I think you have the basic idea of a Single Action/Double Action gun, yes. I am assuming you mean the hammer by "stricker". With a double-action revolver, depending on whether you have cocked the hammer back, you will experience two different trigger pull weights. Most modern revolvers are Double Action.

If you were firing a dud round, I would not attempt to refire it. If you were firing a single-action blackpowder pistol and the primer failed to ignite, then yes, you could remove the faulty primer from the nipple and replace a fresh one. As I reread your post, I think you meant that even if one round fails to fire, you could continue to pull the trigger and continue firing. You are correct, this is one of the advantages a revolver has over a semi-automatic pistol in self-defense.

 

[17poundr]

thanks Dorryn! I meant exactly what you explained better, and with the correct terminology! I suppose that for somebody who was trained on an older FN-9mm that I belive was single action only, then the DA-SA models, would be the most natural for me...

I never liked the pull needed for revolvers that have the double action feature. Some of them seem to be so hard to pull on, that aiming becomes a joke... Maybe I'm just a weakling, but our FN semi auto's in the army had very easy pulls on their triggers...

By the way, when they say things about the trigger like 'creep' and 'overtravel', which one is the 'slack' that is in front of some triggers, before you really start to squeeze on the trigger itself?

I just remember that our FN-9mm's had none, and were light, so that double taps, came very easy, later on I tried it on a Makarov and Tokarev TT, albeit from five meters more (In the army we shot from 10meters, but on the Latvian range where I tried the Makarov and Tokarev, they shot from 15meters). And I must say, that the second shot was all over the place, even on the very steady Tokarev TT (It had a great large and rather heavy wooden handle, where ones right hand thumb just rested on this groove, one had an exellent steady tool for aiming, just for that exellent handle, it was massive, even though the gun itself was about a five inch barrel in 7.62x25mm.

Then again, the Finnish army's Assault rifle, the SAKO/LAPUA RK-62.
This gun is really good for both longer range work, or shorter distance reactive shots to pop up targets say, 15 - 30 meters away...
A revision of the basic model (A modification of the ak-47 and Galil, firing the 7.62x39mm round, from magazines that can go into a kalashnikov too, aknowledged as being more accurate than the AK-47), was used by the Finnish army when I was there in 90-91, most were modernized versions of the original, and a fiew originals were still there, later on we got the then new models with folding stocks, all of these had a bit of 'slack' before the actual trigger pull started, again these triggers were very light, but had more length to pull on, but if one kept a steady squeeze, accuracy with iron sights was very good from our usual 150 meter range, and ok from 300 meters, I mean, all ten rounds would have hit a man sized target, and I belive that is all one can ask for a 7.62'short' when shooting with normal iron sights.

I have never fired modern DAO triggers that some say are very good triggers, I assume that the pull isnt as murderous as in some of the older Revolvers!

But I assume if the army goes for light pull triggers, then it must be the best for self defence too??? Or is it? What is common in practical shooting?


I'll put pics of the Tokarev-TT, RK-62, and then guns I wonder about, a modern quality revolver from S&W, the AR-15 carbine (this one if from S&W too), and the H&K USP Expert, how do you rate the trigger action on these last three?

I suppose with the quality being up there high as it is from competition. If I was in the US and wanted one warming carbine, one revolver, and one quality semi auto, these would be a good choise? (I gather that the AR-15 and AR-10 models out there are mostly pretty good, with a fiew firms making 'rolls royce models', but the ones that are very familiar 'I probably need not go into the makers here', must be a pretty good bargain for what you get?

 

[yesit'sloaded]

If I was in the US and wanted one warming carbine, one revolver, and one quality semi auto, these would be a good choise? (I gather that the AR-15 and AR-10 models out there are mostly pretty good, with a fiew firms making 'rolls royce models', but the ones that are very familiar 'I probably need not go into the makers here', must be a pretty good bargain for what you get?

In all honesty over here it comes down to personal preference and budget. There are a few states that have laws limiting magazine capacity, but in most you can own just about anything you can afford. If you want an example of individuality I have a Smith and Wesson .38sp SA/DA revolver with a two inch barrel while my girlfriend has an Isreali Jericho 941 in .40, which is a full size pistol. Mine

Hers

Sig p226 is airsoft, my revolver has since been reblued and had Houge grips installed.

 

[yesit'sloaded]

I personally like Kimbers for the 1911 style. Revolver is a Ruger super single six in .22. Same revolver as in first picture after reblue and added grips is in the holster on my hip.