Lincoln4
Member
Finger along the frame. And yes, I do that with drill motors too...
About the finger thing
- Thread starter Ryder
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Ryder
Member
Been thinking on this. I'm calling shenanigans. Nothing personal, I have heard it said in the past. In fact I agree it sounds logical, but it is not probable. Not only has it never happened to me I've never seen it happen to others or had others tell me it happened to them in my lifetime.
I've personally undergone situations of extreme panic with my finger on the trigger/safety off yet not had the gun go off unintentionally. Like when an an enormous oak tree split in half near me once. There was a deafening roar for several seconds before any visual cue as to what was happening. I thought the world was coming to an end and was seriously looking for something to kill. Had no clue what was going on but I did know my life was in imminent danger. Also had people shoot guns near me when I wasn't expecting it and was startled so bad my feet came off the ground yet there was no problem with loss of trigger control. Have also seen this happen to many others over the years.
People get shot with their finger on the trigger/ safety off and their gun doesn't even go off involuntarily. I've been shot and my finger didn't go to the trigger because I was too busy processing the situation in my head. That is highly surprising yet jerking the trigger was not an involuntary response in my experience. Although many a person in search of an explanation for why they shot someone (with perfect accuracy) has claimed "I got startled" not even Hollywood imagines this to be true since they often portray it as a false excuse.
It is in fact a person's natural instinct upon surprise to open their hands and drop things. Ever grab something hot? Highly surprising/startling to me yet instinct has always forced me to drop it, not clench it harder. How many stories have you heard of where someone who is shot dropped their gun? I read of this happening fairly often. Weren't they surprised? Why didn't their "natural reaction to squeeze" kick in?
NavyLCDR
member
Finger along the slide. Heck, my gun even has a depression for the straight out trigger finger to fit into. The simple answer is - there is no reason not to but at least a couple of benefits of doing so.
Shadow 7D
Member
Um, it depends, this has alot to do with Neuro-muscular control
I forget which is responsible for startle response, the sympathetic or para-sympathetic, however, to me it doesn't much matter.
I was taught to index the finger, and it is easy to see, if you're around me with a loaded gun and have your finger on the trigger, expect to get reamed for violating the golden 4.
I forget which is responsible for startle response, the sympathetic or para-sympathetic, however, to me it doesn't much matter.
I was taught to index the finger, and it is easy to see, if you're around me with a loaded gun and have your finger on the trigger, expect to get reamed for violating the golden 4.
"calling shenanigans"?
This is basic, generally-accepted training doctrine in the firearms training community. There is a great deal of research and experience underlying the rationale for these techniques. If you care to learn about it, some good material is available here:
https://fortress.wa.gov/cjtc/www/cl...ndgun/Level_I_Section_1_resources_section.pdf
Your personal expereinces seem to be outliers, but they certainly don't impugn the 'trigger finger index' technique as a general gunhandling 'best practice'.
Actually, it appears that the phenomenon of interlimb interaction (or sympathetic squeeze response) is nonetheless accepted. It was addressed in both the classes I've taken at Gunsite and see --Ryder said:
[1] http://www.danzanryu.com/interlimb.html
[2] http://www.co.clackamas.or.us/sheriff/firearms.htm
note at just above the middle of the page: "One issue of firearms safety that the FTU recognizes and works to prevent is interlimb interaction. This can cause deputies under stressful conditions to unintentionally discharge their weapons. Interlimb interaction (also called sympathetic squeeze) is the involuntary contraction of an individual’s hand and finger muscles. In law enforcement, we are very concerned with interlimb interaction as it relates to accidental discharges with firearms."
[3] http://www.springerlink.com/content/jll4mpwnl72lf44y/ (showing that interlimb interaction is recognized and studied scientifically)
Bix, great link and article. Thanks. I wasn't able to find anything that definitive. I'll be saving it as a reference. Much obliged.
dagger dog
Member
I really hate to put it this way but is has become very TACTICOOL, so much of it is seen in the movies and televison programs you would think every one with a firearm has their trigger finger broken and splinted. They even have firearm instructors to teach the actors. Please don't take my statement as anti safety because the practice is valid.
Hand guns give little where else to place the "splinted" finger, so it is kind of a natural instinct to place the finger along side the guard. The Garand has the saftey excatly in the position where you have to have your finger inside the trigger guard,????? go figure???. The new style military and para military rifles are ones that the practice enforces.
Where in hunting long guns most have pistol grip style stocks and placing the thumb over the wrist of the stock and the finger straight out along side the guard is an awkward position even though some have the safteys at the front of the trigger guard.
The longuns with the tang style,three position wing , or side safteys are extremely hard to operate with the broken splinted index finger glued to the trigger guard. Try to thumb back the hammer on a Marlin or Winchester lever gun with that splinted finger along side the trigger guard,or flip that three positon saftey into fire position on "the" Riflemans rifle the pre '64 Model 70 Winchester, as a matter of fact try it with a thumbuster, single action Colt or Ruger six gun.
This is why the TACTICOOL monicker applys!
Hand guns give little where else to place the "splinted" finger, so it is kind of a natural instinct to place the finger along side the guard. The Garand has the saftey excatly in the position where you have to have your finger inside the trigger guard,????? go figure???. The new style military and para military rifles are ones that the practice enforces.
Where in hunting long guns most have pistol grip style stocks and placing the thumb over the wrist of the stock and the finger straight out along side the guard is an awkward position even though some have the safteys at the front of the trigger guard.
The longuns with the tang style,three position wing , or side safteys are extremely hard to operate with the broken splinted index finger glued to the trigger guard. Try to thumb back the hammer on a Marlin or Winchester lever gun with that splinted finger along side the trigger guard,or flip that three positon saftey into fire position on "the" Riflemans rifle the pre '64 Model 70 Winchester, as a matter of fact try it with a thumbuster, single action Colt or Ruger six gun.
This is why the TACTICOOL monicker applys!
The Lone Haranguer
Member
If you put your finger in the same place every time when not in use, you always know where it is.
NavyLCDR
member
What's wrong with this picture:
Hello! He has his finger on the trigger!
And you will notice, it's those damn open carry people again!
Hello! He has his finger on the trigger!
And you will notice, it's those damn open carry people again!
I think it's a positive thing. It's easier to tell when someone else has their finger on or off the trigger if their finger is extended. Nothing wrong with it at all.
Also, walk around for a while with a pistol in your hand and your trigger finger not touching the pistol. Now tell me without looking...how far away is that finger from the trigger? 1"? 2"? 1/16th? There's no tactile reference. It might be even harder in a stressful situation or a situation where you are stepping over things and walking through brush in the woods. If you have your finger touching the same part of your gun, you always know where your finger is....and that's a known safe place to put your finger. I'm fine with that.
Also, walk around for a while with a pistol in your hand and your trigger finger not touching the pistol. Now tell me without looking...how far away is that finger from the trigger? 1"? 2"? 1/16th? There's no tactile reference. It might be even harder in a stressful situation or a situation where you are stepping over things and walking through brush in the woods. If you have your finger touching the same part of your gun, you always know where your finger is....and that's a known safe place to put your finger. I'm fine with that.
Yes it is, and that's what's important.dagger dog said:
It really doesn't have to be "splinted." Sort of straight is usually good enough. And the important thing is that it isn't along side the trigger guard. It's on the frame above the trigger guard. Along side the trigger guard isn't a good idea because of interlimb interaction (see discussion, above).dagger dog said:
I never really had a problem managing the safety on my SxS hunting gun or my Steyr Scout with my trigger finger more or less straight and indexed on the frame above the trigger guard. Never really had a problem managing my Colt SAA (shooting one handed) in my Cowboy Action Shooting days, either. It's all pretty much a matter of practice.dagger dog said:
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Couple of things. It is easily transferable from firearm to firearm. It is inherently more safe. If you feel the need to protect your trigger from "inanimate objects", you might want to make sure your safety is working. The biggest reason for it is if you get into a struggle for your weapon in a self defense situation, your first instinct is to tighten your grip and you do not want your trigger finger in a position where when you do squeeze, it can get onto the trigger. That's why it goes along the stock, slide, etc. rather than the front of the triggerguard.
huntsman
Member
+1
It’s difficult to get people who are used to flat terrain and hard surfaces to understand swamp stopping and brush busting.
I do protect the trigger without actually putting my finger inside the guard at least in heavy cover.
Shadow 7D
Member
Um, many MILLIONS of army people, and Marine people and Airforce (ok not that many) and even some Navy people have walked this ruff and difficult terrain and didn't have to put a finger in the trigger gaurd to keep the brush out.
The way I was taugh was to:
carry in a comfortable manner until
you needed to shoot, then approach at the low ready with finger indexed
then you bring the gun up aim and shoot
So why are we arguing, this, I would think is a non starter
don't put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to shoot
indexing your finger on the slide or above the trigger guard is a transferable skill
The way I was taugh was to:
carry in a comfortable manner until
you needed to shoot, then approach at the low ready with finger indexed
then you bring the gun up aim and shoot
So why are we arguing, this, I would think is a non starter
don't put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to shoot
indexing your finger on the slide or above the trigger guard is a transferable skill
Personally, I've found it's a good way to teach trigger finger safety to the few people I've taken to the range. It's not the most natural way for somebody who has not handled a firearm before, causing them to actively think about where they have their trigger finger. It's one of the most basic rules of safe gun handling that if you aren't pointed at a target, don't have your finger on the trigger.
That said, years ago when I was shooting 3 position smallbore rifle, I did use about the same method as Ryder. Mostly because I was a lot smaller, so my fingers weren't long enough to wrap up around the relatively thick stock on some of the rifles we had. But the trigger guards were also not much larger than the trigger so your finger could wrap around the front part of the guard without much issue.
That said, years ago when I was shooting 3 position smallbore rifle, I did use about the same method as Ryder. Mostly because I was a lot smaller, so my fingers weren't long enough to wrap up around the relatively thick stock on some of the rifles we had. But the trigger guards were also not much larger than the trigger so your finger could wrap around the front part of the guard without much issue.
Ryder, when you said you keep your finger off the trigger RELAXED. If you are attacked, startled, or frightened you are NOT going to be relaxed. As you grip you weapon harder you WILL reflexively also curl your finger and and accidental discharge is likely. If you have been in any serious handgun or emergency response training you would also learn how important it is to have your finger away from the trigger. The "keeping twigs and such away from my trigger" argument is just silly. You don't have a safety on your rifles? If you are talking about a handgun what are you doing? Dragging it behind you? Your weapon should be in FRONT of you and in you sight. Its called muzzle awareness. You should be able to see things that may interfere with your weapon to keep it from touching the trigger. Do you also go through the brush with your eyes closed to keep twigs from getting in your eyes? your theory is pretty slim sir.
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NavyLCDR
member
OMG!
First it's the one-in-the-pipe or not argument.
Then it's the open v. concealed carry argument.
Now it's the straight v. bent finger argument.
This is why the anti-s hold on to so much ground!
Can't we all just hug and get along!
First it's the one-in-the-pipe or not argument.
Then it's the open v. concealed carry argument.
Now it's the straight v. bent finger argument.
This is why the anti-s hold on to so much ground!
Can't we all just hug and get along!
Beaux Nehr
Member
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2010
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- 460
OH LAWD!!!!
Is that some IDF?
Is that some IDF?
Quote:
IF your finger is on the trigger or in the well and you are in a tense situation, and you are startled, spooked, excited... the natural reaction is to SQUEEZE...
Been thinking on this. I'm calling shenanigans. Nothing personal, I have heard it said in the past. In fact I agree it sounds logical, but it is not probable. Not only has it never happened to me I've never seen it happen to others or had others tell me it happened to them in my lifetime.
I know someone who was shot because someone else had their finger near the trigger and tried to do something with their gun in their hand. It is possible so I quess that makes it probable to some degree. It's also not probable you are going to get in a gunfight with 4 crackheads tonight but it is possible.
IF your finger is on the trigger or in the well and you are in a tense situation, and you are startled, spooked, excited... the natural reaction is to SQUEEZE...
Been thinking on this. I'm calling shenanigans. Nothing personal, I have heard it said in the past. In fact I agree it sounds logical, but it is not probable. Not only has it never happened to me I've never seen it happen to others or had others tell me it happened to them in my lifetime.
I know someone who was shot because someone else had their finger near the trigger and tried to do something with their gun in their hand. It is possible so I quess that makes it probable to some degree. It's also not probable you are going to get in a gunfight with 4 crackheads tonight but it is possible.
Its my "anti DQ flag" in competition. And, if I ever do need to use a pistol to defend myself, I hope that this habit will carry over.
Nothing would ruin my day more than putting a bullet into someone without having made the decision to do so, except perhaps getting shot myself, of course.
Nothing would ruin my day more than putting a bullet into someone without having made the decision to do so, except perhaps getting shot myself, of course.
When I was a teenager I was walking down the road where I live (in the country) with my Dad's Mossberg 243. I had my finger "relaxed" in the trigger well. That is until the deafening BOOOOOMMMMM I heard scared the dickens out of me. I was walking calmly down the road, not banging around in the brush. If your practice is to keep your finger on the trigger, before you intend to fire, one day you will regret that choice. If you think hunting with your finger on the trigger makes more sense than using the safety and keeping your finger off the trigger I would almost bank on it.
I look at it as a protocol type safe practice that acts as a courtesy to those around you. Seeing people handle weapons makes you much more comfortable if you see an empty trigger guard the entire time. It's common practice for a reason, it works well.
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