Absolutely GREAT pump action shotguns.

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Also you do not have to prove a need to get a shotgun certificate, the police can only refuse you if you have a criminal record or if they think you do not have a need.

Is it just me or is that statement sort of self-contradictory?

You don't need to prove a need but the police can deny if they don't think you have a need? What kind of government double-speak is that? Bill Clinton must have taught the Brits how to double-speak with the best of them.
 
Uncle Pete hits it pretty much on the head, which is as it should be seeing a assume he's a shooter living in Britain :)

I often find Americans think we are restricted to double barrelled shotguns, I expect its just one of those things people assume.

As UnclePete says we can own as many as we like so long as each one is registered on our certificate (licence) as being owned by us. We don't even need a gun safe in the strictest terms of the law, though most police forces make such a fuss it's not worth arguing.

Notorius - with a shotgun, the police have to prove you shouldnt have it, maybe if you have a history of mental illness, or a string of convictions for violence perhaps.

With rifles, it's the other way around, i.e you have to prove a good reason for owning one, for example 6 months membership of a registered gun club, or even just owning some land to shoot on.

The big difference with our countrys is that here there is no "common land" for people to shoot on, you can only shoot on land if you have permission of the landowner, or are the landowner. Hence owning a rifle if you dont have access to large amounts of land tends to be shooting .22 rimfires indoors, which does nothing for me at all. I like my shotguns :)
 
Notorius - with a shotgun, the police have to prove you shouldnt have it, maybe if you have a history of mental illness, or a string of convictions for violence perhaps.

With rifles, it's the other way around, i.e you have to prove a good reason for owning one, for example 6 months membership of a registered gun club, or even just owning some land to shoot on.

So with a shotgun, the burden of proof shifts back to the government to prove that you don't need it?

How common is land ownership in the UK that is of sufficient size to shoot a rifle?

What's the level of proof that the government needs to reject your shotgun application? What is the real percentage of applications approved for shotguns? How many were denied? What reasons were given for the denial? Is denial more than a river in Egypt?

Also for the rifle issue, do you give back the rifle if you don't have a membership at a rifle range anymore? How many people really have enough land to qualify for a high-powered rifle? If it's a small percentage, then it is a ban by default if nobody can really qualify for it anyway due to the onerous and impossible qualifications.
 
The Ithaca model 37 is very similar in function to the BPS. Both are bottom eject. The Ithaca is lighter than the BPS.

The Ithaca 37 does indeed have a similar function to the Browing BPS in that they both are bottom ejectors but they have little else in common. The Ithaca 37's ancestry is closer to the Remington models 17 and 29.

As far as the question of "classic" pump shotguns go, I'd have to nominate the Remington Model 31 as being a strong contender if workmanship, finish reliability and smoothness of operation are primary factors in deciding which is "best".
 
So with a shotgun, the burden of proof shifts back to the government to prove that you don't need it? Yes thats right.

How common is land ownership in the UK that is of sufficient size to shoot a rifle? Not very common, particularly where I live in the south, where it's very very congested. Mostly people belong to syndicates, i.e where groups of people rent shooting land off estates, or they have permission from a farmer to control vermin, e.g rabbits grey squirrells wood pigeon magpies crows etc. I do this with a shotgun. In other parts of the country land is fairly common, it's just where you live.

What's the level of proof that the government needs to reject your shotgun application? What is the real percentage of applications approved for shotguns? How many were denied? What reasons were given for the denial? Is denial more than a river in Egypt? I dont know anyone who had a shotgun certificate denied, except one bloke who'd wouldnt fit a gun safe then got aggressive with the police when they came round for the pre-licence application. If I'm honest, I have 3 crminal convictions (sorry mum!) from 20 years ago, and it didnt stop me getting my shotgun licence. If you had a history of mental illness I imagine it would be a different story!

Also for the rifle issue, do you give back the rifle if you don't have a membership at a rifle range anymore? How many people really have enough land to qualify for a high-powered rifle? If it's a small percentage, then it is a ban by default if nobody can really qualify for it anyway due to the onerous and impossible qualifications. If you didnt have the Firearms licence, you wouldnt have the rifle in the first place. Your attitude in this question seems somewhat aggresive, not sure why :confused:

Dont forget the bad things by the way, there is NO full-auto guns allowed, there is NO semi auto rifles bigger than .22 calibre, and in mainland Britain handguns are illegal, after some psyco went into a school and murdered 16 primary school children and thier teacher in Scotland. Gun crime has actually risen since this incident, though thats not specifially relevant to handgun ban, more a case of less law and order, and more politically correct bs. Thats not what we're discussing here though :)
 
No no no... I meant no aggression by my last question. I was merely asking if it is the same story of a ban by another pretext where they make the requirements so onerous that nobody can really qualify for it. Unless you made the regs, I don't know why you would see it as me being aggressive toward you.

I was wondering because you mentioned a 6 month membership to a rifle range as a qualifier for the rifle permit. So if you're currently a member, I can see that helping but what if your membership expires and you don't renew? Does that mean the cops revoke your rifle license?
 
Oh I see, well I guess technically yeah if your membership to the gun club ran out and you didnt have anywhere to shoot they wouldnt renew the licence (both shotgun and firearms licences are renewed every 5 years). I don't think they would remove your licence before the renewal, after all I dont think they'd know.

But then I dont shoot rifles anyway, I only own an air rifle, so I dont know 100%. To me shooting pop gun .22s in a 25 metre range is pretty boring, I've done it , its not my thing. Like I often say, shooting clay pigeons is much more fun, when you hit the target, it explodes :D
 
In my own humble opinion, any pump gun collection MUST begin with a model 12 Winchester. It's the pump gun against which ALL pump guns were measured for almost 100 years, and in my opinion, the best. I know it's the only one I'll bother owning.
 
Ithaca 37 in 20ga was the first shotgun I ever fired. I don't own one but wish I did.
 
Actually , besides a model 12, I think a Remigton Model 31 (predates the 870 and was too expensive to manufacture) with a 22" barrel and a Polychoke for around 25" OAL of barrel would be just the ticket! The Model 31 comes down even easier than the easy Model 12 take down does and can be stowed in a small 'boot' or large suitcase. They were the smoothest action pumps-ever , and earned the name of "ball bearing corn shucker". I have a 20 ga. Aluminum recievered post war "lightweight" modified 28" barrel. A 16 gauge Imp Cylinder 26" barrel one (my favorite all around upland bird gun) and a 22" 12gauge with poly choke as a loaner gun.
 
Oh I see, well I guess technically yeah if your membership to the gun club ran out and you didnt have anywhere to shoot they wouldnt renew the licence (both shotgun and firearms licences are renewed every 5 years). I don't think they would remove your licence before the renewal, after all I dont think they'd know.

But then I dont shoot rifles anyway, I only own an air rifle, so I dont know 100%. To me shooting pop gun .22s in a 25 metre range is pretty boring, I've done it , its not my thing. Like I often say, shooting clay pigeons is much more fun, when you hit the target, it explodes

I hear ya. We used to go shooting a lot with pistols and rifles but once I found out there was a trap/skeet range 4 miles from where I live, I've been going there every Sunday for my de-stressing.

It's getting quite costly though, blowing off all those boxes of shells.
 
Worth doing though :) I guess I shoot 100 to 150 shells a week, though over the christmas period it's been more like 200 to 250 :D
 
Yeah, at minimum, we shoot 2 boxes(50 shells) for warmup and go up to 4 boxes for a short day to sometimes a whole case (250 shells) if we are on a streak. Per day.

Sometimes we go twice a week and my buddy even sneaks in a few during lunch if he has time. That's hard core.
 
Notorious, I would not defend our gun laws! Was only trying to explain them. Politicians and the general public (everywhere?) have no interest in or knowledge of guns, so basically we're on a losing wicket.

I have three shotguns; pump, s/s, o/u, plus a .22 air rifle. Many politicians would like to ban them all, and I suspect an overwhelming majority of the public would agree. The next step I forsee is an Australian-style ban on pumps and semis, it's no good telling an anti-gun nut that the power is in the cartridge, they're convinced a sexy-looking pump is more lethal than an old s/s.

Going back to Throdgrain's OP, the great pump I have discovered is a .410 Mossberg with a sound moderator. I bought it as a close-range weapon against the jackdaws that plague me. As I live on a large plot in rural Scotland, I now enjoy the noble sport of shotgun plinking in my grounds, simple shooting fun - you can't beat it.

But THEY can ban it.
 
As with all gun-control laws, only the law-abiding are affected, that is the stupidity of it.

+1 on that.

I wish we in the USA could easily buy mufflers for our guns.. England is more sensible in that regard.


In mainland Britain handguns are illegal, after some psyco went into a school and murdered 16 primary school children and thier teacher in Scotland.

Are/were schools "gun free zones" like they are in the US, and/or was all legal carry forbidden at the time this happened?
 
Browning BPS would get my vote, light and almost waspish compared to a Remington. Definitely a classic.
 
I own a Winchester 1300 Defender and I love it. As previously posted it´s extremely fast to reload, strong and reliable. I have a friend who has shot a bizarre number of rounds through his 1300 without any problems.

Another friend of mine has a Remington 870, but I can´t stand it. Heavier and slower to reload. When we go to the range together I never want to borrow it... My friend is now looking for a 1300 to replace his 870.
 
I can only address guns from the perspective of "field" guns for wingshooting. When you get into the defense guns I have zero experience, and I think this category has grown into an entirely different area of expertise as to what is needed and what works best. Wingshooting is waaaaay different. I'll just have to plan to blast them with a plain old 870.
Well, you already got the top of the heap with the Remington 870, if you got a Wingmaster, and the Mossberg, if you got one from early on. Both brands have gone to the mat trying to produce the least expensive reliable gun possible lately, but the first Mossberg 500s were polished blue and walnut, and showed they knew who the competition was. How much money are you planning to spend, and do you just want examples of popular pump guns, or the best pump guns? I would go with the best, and to me that means guns that work extremely well, regardless of cost or how much hand work was involved, and designs that have been around long enough to be proven. I say was because those types of guns are all gone, and that is why. I will give you a short list of the guns I think are the best.
High Standard Flite-King - as if to make up for making one of the worst semi-autos, High Standard, not a name greatly associated with shotguns, produced an outstanding pump. As smooth as any pump gun ever made.
Ithaca 37 - get a lightweight version, that's what made them famous - good handling.
Browning BPS - well made shotguns since day one. Get a ten gauge. Truly one of a kind. One drawback to the BPS and the Ithaca to a lot of us is the bottom loading and having to load thru the magazine.
Winchester Model 12. Long lamented departed icon. Honestly, I owned two and never got the devotion. Not saying it was/is not a good gun, but it never cleaned a duck for me. I think it has to do with feel. To some people this gun just felt right. High production cost killed it. A lot of the Model 12 crowd could never warm up to the Model 1200/1300s since.
The 870, the Mossberg, the Ithaca, the Browning; they are all "old" designs now. Rather than taking the view that their makers are void of innovation, I tend to think there is really nothing there in those cases that needs improving upon, relative to their suitability for wingshooting. If any of them change their design to make them feel more like any of the others, they are going to lose some of the fans they already have.
 
My only shotgun is a Winchester 1300 pump. I won it in a raffle about six or seven years ago. It was made here in the USA. A friend recently told me that they are now made in Turkey, but I am not sure about that. Its a great shooter, fast and points very well for me.
 
Virginian, thats a good post, many thanks :)

Ohm, it's so different over here to your country, to be honest I tire of trying to explain, no disrespect to your good self :(
 
The M37 is not a copy of a early remington, it is a browning design that came out in 1937, check out the ithaca gun co. website. By the way I own a ithaca they are great guns.
 
throdgrain I have a question for you. What bring you here to the High Road, it's obviously focused on American laws and such. Are there really no forums in the UK? I'm just curious.
 
coldshot,

No detraction toward Ithaca, but the Model 37 is in fact a copy of the Remington Model 17, a JM Browning design. To wit:

"The Remington 870 was the fourth major design change in the company's production of pump shotguns. John Pederson designed the fragile Model 10 and working with John Browning helped design the Model 17, which was later produced by Ithaca as the Ithaca 37 and eventually served as the blueprint for the Remington Model 31." - http://www.buckmasters.com/bm/Resou...icleView/articleId/1151/Americas-Shotgun.aspx
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"Designed by the famous firearms designers John Browning and John Pedersen, the gun was initially marketed as the Remington Model 17. The Model 17 was a 20-gauge of trim proportions, later redesigned and refined into the popular Remington Model 31. That gun would eventually be replaced in production by the Remington 870 which is still produced to this day.
Following the First World War, the Ithaca Gun Company was searching for a pump-action shotgun to produce, primarily to compete with the Winchester Model 12. They settled on waiting for Remington Model 17 patents to expire. After gearing for production of the Ithaca model 33, they discovered more Pedersen patents that would not expire until 1937; along with the introduction date, they changed the model designation from 33 to 37." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ithaca_37
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http://www.cruffler.com/historic-april00.html

CRUFFLER.COM
presents
HISTORIC FIREARM OF THE MONTH,
April 2000: Ithaca Model 37
Type: Pump Action Shotgun
System of Operation: Manual slide reciprocation
Caliber: 12 gauge (16 and 20 gauges available as well)
Capacity: Underbred tube magazine, 5 or 8 rounds
Sights: Bead front, Deerslayer Model: Elevation adjustable notch rear, blade front
Length: 45" - 53" (varying barrel lengths)
Weight (unloaded): 6 - 7 lbs (varying barrel lengths)
Barrel: 20" - 28" (varying barrel lengths)

The Ithaca Gun Company produced its first shotgun in 1883. By 1937, the company had over fifty years of experience in manufacturing sporting shotguns. It was in that year that the company unveiled its newest offering, the Model 37 Repeater. The Model 37 was destined to be a huge success, assuring Ithaca Gun Company a place in firearms history. However, the path that ultimately led to the Model 37 was not a little tortuous. This article deviates from the general technical bent of the Historic Firearm of the Month series in that it focuses chiefly on legal and intellectual property issues that impacted the design and eventual marketing of this historic gun.

As early as 1914, the Ithaca Gun Company's management realized that public's growing appetite for repeating and self-loading shotguns posed a threat to their traditional double gun business. Consequently, Claude Smith, one of Ithaca's owners, traveled to Toledo, Ohio to purchase the rights to patent number 1,084,775. This was a patent for a "repeating firearm known as a pump gun," and was to be purchased from the Union Arms Company, which was going out of business. The purchase agreement also included tools, fixtures, and both completed and uncompleted guns for the Union Arms Company Model 60 repeating shotgun. Ithaca never produced a firearm based on this patent.

Ithaca Gun began to actively seek involvement in the pump gun market in 1930. On May 27th of that year, Ithaca Gun requested its patent attorney, Theodore K. Bryant, to conduct a patent infringement investigation into both the Winchester Model 12 shotgun and the Remington Model 17 shotgun. In the event, the 20 gauge Remington Model 17 shotgun was chosen to be of interest to Ithaca Gun because John Moses Browning's patents used on the gun were set to expire on June 15th, 1932, thus allowing Ithaca to manufacture and sell the gun after that date, and Remington was going to discontinue the gun in 1932. Once the decision was taken to use the Remington Model 17 as the basis for the new Ithaca repeater, design work began almost immediately. Cost estimates for the necessary jigs, fixtures, tools, lathes, profilers, etc., came to approximately $55,575.00.

On October 31, 1930, a 12 gauge version of the new gun was shipped to the patent attorney's office with the instructions "to look it over and advise us just as soon as possible whether or not is is your opinion that we can manufacture and sell said gun after the expiration of J.M. Browning's patent #1,143,170 of June 15th, 1915." The new Ithaca pump shotgun contained the shell extractor and the inline firing pin described in the patent "Firing Mechanism for a Pump Gun" issued to a Mr. Harry Howland on March 15, 1932. Additionally, the Ithaca shotgun eliminated the milled steps at the forward sides of the receiver that was characteristic of the Remington Model 17. With the exception of these changes, the Ithaca gun was little more than a 12 gauge version of the Remington Model 17.

Image Credit: Snyder, Walter Claude, Ithaca Featherlight Repeaters, (Cook and Uline Publishing, Southern Pines, North Carolina,: 1998) Page 23

The Remington Model 17 (right) and the new Ithaca Repeater (left) were very similar. Action schematics of the Model 17 from a 1923 Remington catalogue and the Ithaca Repeater submitted with the Howland patent application illustrate how similar the two guns were.

Ithaca Gun's patent attorney reported back indicating that after the June 15th, 1932 expiration of the Browning patent, no further patent related obstacles would prevent the manufacture of the new gun.

Image Credit: Snyder, Walter Claude, Ithaca Featherlight Repeaters, (Cook and Uline Publishing, Southern Pines, North Carolina,: 1998) Page 24

Based on this information, Ithaca management went ahead with plans to unveil the "Ithaca Model 33 Repeater." However, all was not in order. . .A Mr. A.A. Dicke was a personal friend of Paul Livermore, one of the officers of the Ithaca Gun Company. Mr. Dicke was also a patent attorney for the Remington Arms Company. Mr. Dicke became aware of Ithaca Gun's interest in producing a pump shotgun when the Howland
patent was issued in 1932. He sent a series of letters to both Ithaca Gun and its patent attorney, Theodore K. Bryant, indicating that Remington had been paying royalties to Mr. J.D. Pedersen for the use of his patent during the manufacture of the Model 17. Remington had begun manufacture of the Model 17 in 1917, assuming that only the Browning patent applied to the design. Later, in the 1925 - 26 time frame, Mr. Pedersen submitted evidence to the effect that his patent, number 1,317,988 "read" on the Browning design. In resolution of the matter Remington paid Pedersen a sum of money which included a royalty for each gun produced. Apparently, this Pedersen patent was as much of a surprise to Remington as it later turned out to be for Ithaca. There is speculation that the Pedersen patent had been lost or misplaced at the Patent Office for a number of years, thus explaining why patent attorneys from both Ithaca and Remington were unable to find it. Based on the validity of the Pedersen patent, all work on the "Model 33" was immediately halted.

After patiently biding its time waiting for the Pedersen patent to expire, Ithaca Gun again contacted Mr. Bryant the patent attorney on September 2, 1936, stating:

We understand that said Pedersen patent expires on October 7, 1936 and becomes public property on that date. It is our conclusion, therefore, that the Howland patent will be free from infringement on both the Pedersen and the Browning patents, they having expired and therefore became public property. We have under consideration and have practically decided to offer the Repeating gun described in the Howland patent for sale on or about January 1, 1937.
After another patent infringement investigation, Mr. Bryant found no reason to prevent the manufacture and marketing of the Ithaca Repeater based on the Howland patent. The Ithaca Model 37 was finally ready for prime time! Deliveries of the Model 37 Repeater began in April 1937. Since that time the Model 37 has been made in 12, 16, and 20 gauge, and in just about every configuration imaginable, from Standard, Skeet, or Trap grade guns with 26" or 28" barrels, ventilated ribs, and highly polished receivers to the rifle-sighted Deerslayer versions, and the specialized military and police Models. The Ithaca Model 37 compares favorably with even the most modern pump action shotguns available, and is distinguished by its light weight, solid construction, and short, smooth operating mechanism stroke.

BIBLIOGRAPHY

Snyder, Walter Claude, Ithaca Featherlight Repeaters, (Cook and Uline Publishing, Southern Pines, North Carolina,: 1998)
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etc. Hope this helps,

lpl
 
throdgrain I have a question for you. What bring you here to the High Road, it's obviously focused on American laws and such. Are there really no forums in the UK? I'm just curious.

What are they going to talk about? Gun laws in England... No guns, except for the limited circumstances.

No handguns to talk about. No semi-auto rifles other than 22s. No pumps more than 2/5 shots.

That elmininates AR forums, AK forums, EBR discussions, Glock, HK, etc.

I guess you can discuss the various wood grain finishes on the fine upland field guns.
 
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