Acceptable sizing variations in 223?

[gregj]

Given same headstamp brass, what is acceptable variations in sizing?

Here's my setup- Hornady LNL Classic SS, Hornady sizing die, LC brass (Black Hills ammo, once fired in my AR). Die adjusted to bump the shoulder back .003 to 1.4555" Brass lubed with Imperial wax, even put mouth of every 4th or 5th case in wax slightly to keep shoulder from getting pulled.

After sizing, the majority comes out at 1.4555, or very close, a few around 1.4570 to 1.4515. Is this variation normal? or acceptable? I'm only shooting out to 100 yds, is this enough to affect accuracy? I understand different hardnesses of the brass can effect how it responds to being sized.

I had been resizing and loading the 223 on my LNL AP, but I'm trying to improve the accuracy of my loads, so I thought I would get a SS press for the loads I want to be more accurate. TIA

 

[NeuseRvrRat]

that variation doesn't sound excessive. brass does all sorts of funny things when you start dealing with its "springiness". you could be pulling the shoulder back out when you drag it across the expander ball on the ram's downstroke. maybe try lightly lubing the inside of every neck the same. a nylon bore brush or one of the brushes sold just for lubing necks may be more consistent.

how are you measuring? "bump" style gauge or what? do you have the die adjusted so that you make a full stroke with the ram to achieve the ~.003" bump?

also, what are you shooting these in?

 

[gregj]

I've not tried a nylon bore brush to lube the neck, though I may next time. I was trying to get some of the Imperial wax around the case mouth to accomplish the same thing, and I could tell by the pressure in the handle when it was time to dip another case mouth in the wax to lube the expander ball. I did make sure to wipe off any excess from the case mouth.

I'm measuring with a digital caliper and Hornady case comparator.

do you have the die adjusted so that you make a full stroke with the ram to achieve the ~.003" bump?

Hmm, I'm pretty sure each stroke was full and consistent, but I will pay closer attention next time. The die doesnt hit the case holder and force a cam-over like it did on the LNL AP. To get the desired bump on the LNL AP I had to screw it about 3/4 turn (IIRC) past where it meets the shellplate, got a pretty significant "cam-over". I dont feel anything like that now.

Loads are shot in an AR, RRA with Predator Pursuit 20" upper.

 

[MtnCreek]

LC brass (Black Hills ammo, once fired in my AR).

I would expect some variation with this brass. LC is not the best brass from day one. I assume these are 'blue box' BH cartridges if the brass is LC. If so, they have been reloaded at least once when you bought the ammo. Some commercial reloaders purchase LC brass from other sources than just mil firing ranges and if this is the case, there could be brass that was commercially reloaded prior to Black Hills getting it.

Lubing every (or every other) piece will help if the expander ball is causing most of the variation. If it's just the brass springing back, not much you can do there other than anneal, or so I've heard (I've never annealed brass).

When lubing by hand, I scrape a fine coat of lube on two sides of the inside of the neck. The brush does a better job, but requires wiping the outside of the neck prior to reloading.

Does Hornady offer a carbide expander ball for their die?

 

[gregj]

Yep, Black Hills Blue Box. I thought this brass would be "better" than the PMC brass I've been using (also once fired in my AR).

After sizing, I trim, uniform primer pocket, etc, etc, then tumble again to get all the lube and brass shavings out.

Hornady makes a carbide expander, but it seems to be only for RCBS dies. Not quite sure I understand that logic.

 

[MtnCreek]

May want to add de-burring the flash holes. LC brass has huge burrs; so bad that I have to de-burr some of them just to get them to fit in my swager. I've found better accuracy going through the brass prep w/ LC brass, but it could be plasebo (spelling) affect.

I would call Hornady and ask them about the carbide expander, if for no other reason than to give them a hard time for making it for RCBS dies and not their own.

 

[NeuseRvrRat]

i'd try a little imperial wax on a nylon case neck lube brush on every single case. do that for a batch of 20 or so and then see what kind of variation you have. if nothing else, you eliminate that theory.

 

[Walkalong]

The Redding carbide button will fit older RCBS dies, and can be made to work on the newer ones fairly easily.

 

[243winxb]

Hornady LNL Classic SS Frame Material: Cast Alloy. Wonder if there is spring in the press like Lees?

 

[sugarmaker]

A couple of ideas:

An aluminum frame press has quite a bit of spring, also linkage will stretch, pins will seat, frame will deflect, and the result is your neck will get pushed back by a varying amount as a function of sizing force. This can be affected by amount and brand of lube, the prior state of the brass (different loads in one gun or same load in multiple guns), etc. What you may find helps is to get a redding competition shellholder and bump it against your sizing die. this will create a dead length sizing chamber. Run the shellholder up against the die and give an extra 1/16th turn or enough that the shellholder still bumps the die with your highest force case. Some will compalin that this is not a good idea, and in a super rigid press it is not and cam damage a die. Yours is not a super rigid press. Don't adjust it so you are standing on the handle, just do it enough so that the parts barely contact when the handle cams over with your highest force case. I would suggest getting a lee collett neck sizing die and a redding body die combo. No inside neck lube needed and no expander plug to stretch your brass. neck size first, then adjust the body die per above and your variation will be sub .001" provided you don't lube too heavily. You can use the same procedure to get good OAL consistency provided your seat die does not crimp also.

 

[gregj]

Great input, thanks !!! I have the Redding comp shellholder set on my wishlist, will be ordering soon, and will pick up a case lube brush this weekend.

 

[kingmt]

Try a bushing between the shell holder & die so you take press flex on of the equation. I have a hard time seeing how it could help a AR but then again I'm new to loading for a AR. I know my M16A2 had about 2" groups at 50 meters with mil stuff. Guess that is why 28 out of 40 is good enough to keep a job. Wish that was good enough to keep my job with a hand gun. I wouldn't stress so much on range day.

 

[gamestalker]

I make sure the inside of my necks have a light, but even lube film. I use a spray on (Dillon) lube, which makes is a bit easier to avoid over lubing. Once in a blue moon I'll forget to lube the inside of one, and when I do, it stands out like a sore thumb, other wise the expander slides out like silk.

 

[fguffey]

Reddeing Competing type shell holder, just one? They come in a set of 5 in .002 thousands increments as in dividing 5 into .010, the answer should be .002 difference as in .002, .004, .006, .008 and .010, do not count on ‘it’. Then get a Lee collet die, and get a Redding body die ‘combo’.

Before you order a pile of tools you do not need help me with your measurements.

“After sizing, the majority comes out at 1.4555, or very close, a few around 1.4570 to 1.4515. Is this variation normal? or acceptable? I'm only shooting out to 100 yds, is this enough to affect accuracy? I understand different harnesses of the brass can effect how it responds to being sized”

From short to long you have .0065 difference, and that number is greater than the difference between a go-gage and a no go-gage, or the difference between the length of a go-gage chamber and a new minimum length case when measured from the head of the case to the shoulder. I would suggest you determine the length of the chamber from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber, the minimum/maximum numbers for your chamber is 1.463 and 1.473, the case length when using a .330 datum 1.4666 (-.007), I do not expect anyone to be able to keep up with the numbers, but with your longest case and sammies shortest chamber is .0125 longer than your longest case. And that is the reason I say when someone says “sammie says” I find the information less than nice to know.

I determine the length of the chamber first from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber, and the datum for the .223 Remington is .330, and that is nice to know but not necessary, unless I want to compare “what sammie says” with a gage I build, but I do not shoot gages, I shoot ammo, so I form/size cases to fit my chamber.

I do not bump, sounds like an accident and, what appears to be unfair, when the shoulder of my die contacts the shoulder of the case, the die is making 100% contact with the case as in neck, shoulder and case body so when sizing a case for length I adjust the die off the shell holder, to avoid doing it over and over until I get it correct, I use the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage, the feeler gage is much cheaper than Redding Completion shell holders, and one multiply leaf gage fits all, and I can size cases for short chambers with my versatile full length sizer die.

If you have fired cases you could reverse Engineer? That would be to fire form (measure the length of the case from the head of the case to the shoulder first), then chamber, fire, then measure again, forget what sammie says, compare the difference in length between the case before it was fired and again after firing.

Then the neck pulling, there is a way to determine if the neck is being pulled and ‘by how much’ but first a reloader has to be convinced the neck gets shorter when necked up and longer when necked down.

And, I do find the L.E. Wilson case gage the most helpful, for some the Wilson case gage is an incidental/drop-in tool, When measuring the length of a case from the head of the case to it’s shoulder I can measure the length in thousands when using the Wilson case gage, and I am the fan of transfers and standards.

F. Guffey

 

[243winxb]

once fired in my AR. After sizing, a few around 1.4570 to 1.4515.

This may take 3 sizings at the same die setting to get all brass to the same head to datum line measurements. Brass can get shorter on firing.

 

[fguffey]

“Brass can get shorter on firing”

I have heard that, I have read that, I have never read or heard any one explain how that happens, unless they are misquoting me.

“This may take 3 sizings at the same die setting to get all brass to the same head to datum line measurements”

I can not top that one, if you were not talking to me, forgive.


F. Guffey

 

[Walkalong]

Good stuff.

View attachment 599300

 

[243winxb]

Never mind, Walkalong is watching.

 

[30Cal]

+/- 0.002 is pretty good and it sounds like you're lubing adequately.

I don't know about the AR, but the M1A can really work the case rim pretty good and I think that can drive some variability; hard to do much about it.

For 100yds, I doubt that tightening up the variability is going to do much; the load recipe (case, bullet, powder, charge and jump setting) is going to determine how well the load shoots; variability is going to be down in the noise and you're not going to get much traction by fussing.

 

[gregj]

For 100yds, I doubt that tightening up the variability is going to do much; the load recipe (case, bullet, powder, charge and jump setting) is going to determine how well the load shoots; variability is going to be down in the noise and you're not going to get much traction by fussing.

That's exactly what I was thinking. Thanks all for the input.

 

[P-32]

It looks to me like you have about everything covered. The only thing left is weighing cases. Just kidding. This won't show up at a 100 yards but it will at 600 yards. Lake City is fine brass to use in a AR. I have found it to be relable in the AR and have gotten as many as 12 reloads before giving up and not using it for match loads. You didn'y say or I missed what bullet and powder you are using.

For 100 yards, I know a 55 gr Hornaday A Max with Varget and started with a Remington 7 1/2 primer works pretty well.

 

[amlevin]

I'm thinking that these variations are all within the varying elastic characteristics of the brass. I'd try annealing the brass and then doing the same comparison. That should make the "spring-back" more equal among the cases.

 

[Walkalong]

Your doing fine.

No use in worrying about shoulder position, which may make a few thousandths difference at 100 yards, when the bullet can make a difference measured with a ruler, and the nut behind the trigger can do more than that.

Practice, practice, practice, and when you can tell the difference between a load that shoots 1/2" and a load that shoots 1/4", start worrying about the little stuff more.

Seriously.

 

[fguffey]

gregj, you ask a question, my opinion, you deserve better answers, in the beginning it was recommended/suggested you purchase more tools you do not need. I said I do not expect anyone to be able to understand the measurements you furnished, for the measurements to have value there must be another measurement to compare your findings with, you should not be able to size a case a below minimum length, all of the case lengths you have posted are shorter than minimum length (=to full length sized).

The best results a reloader can expect is ‘full length size’ to minimum length, is is impossible to compress the die and or shell holder so the distance from the deck of the shell holder to the shoulder of the die can not be reduced***, the case can be tough and whip the press by presenting more resistance to being sized than the press is capable of overcoming.

There could be an error in the way you are setting up the gage, there could be an error in the tool you are using, that is the reason gages are zeroed before using.

After we have gotten past the need for more tools we need to get past that part where a spread of .006 thousands difference in case length from the head of the case to it’s shoulder is not within tolerance, again your numbers are short. Again, .006 is excessive when it comes to case stretch and multiple firings, on every answer regarding head space case head separation is guaranteed with .006 head space and repeated firings. Not alarming but I want to bring your attention to the fact your numbers are short, shorter than minimum length, meaning you could have .012 thousands head space when firing your cases in a minimum length/go gage length chamber.

I am the fan of transfers and standards, and verifying, I am a fan of verifying, I suggest you acquire some, a box, a few new unfired cases and measure the length of the cases from the head of the case to the shoulder of the case on as many as 20 to get an average, I have found the difference in length for 20 cases to be as small as .001thousands. Make sure the tool you are using has a diameter of .330 without a bevel, if it has a bevel, do like me, make up your own numbers, but to do that you must understand you have to have a standard.

***for another day.

F. Guffey