Accuracy expectations for a 2" revolver

[J-Bar]

Through a series of trades, I now have a S&W Model 60 stainless with the 2" barrel, .38 Special. It is the only snubbie I have ever owned or shot.

What kind of groups should I expect to get with this gun and mild .38 loads? I was disappointed with my accomplishments when I tested it at the range, figure its mostly me and old eyes...but even with 158 grain target loads (3.5 grains Titegroup) it shot pretty low and gave saucer-like groups.

I understand these were intended for handshake range, but just curious what kind of performance you can get out of them if you eliminate the human variables. Got any pictures of your best groups, and the loads you shot them with?

Thanks.

 

[MedWheeler]

With slow, deliberate, two-handed, non-rested fire, I find <3-inch groups at POA pretty normal at 7 yards. My only snubs are Charter Arms Undercover revolvers (one from 1967, the other 20 years newer.) That's with standard factory ammo at that weight range.
Low-shooting can sometimes be attributed to anticipated recoil that doesn't materialize. Is this your first snub, and are you used to shooting something with a little more kick?

 

[Waywatcher]

I would expect, at the minimum, of a snubby, being able to put all 5 rounds into an 8" circle at 25 yards. That's just me.

 

[beatledog7]

I shoot a 1-7/8" S&W in.38SPL, and it's my EDC gun.

It took some practice, but I can put a fast-fired group five of any round I've tried, including my own home rolled rounds, into a the unfluted part of a 9" paper plate at 7-10 yards. That works out to about a 5-6" group. If I slow down a little and really try to tighten the group, that drops to a 2" group. That's about as accurate as such a gun is designed to be, or at least as accurate as I need it to be.

I don't practice with this gun at 25 yards, but I have shot 17 yard groups (the limit of my indoor range) inside the same paper plates. I guess that's ok, but it's not critical to me to be good with a snubbie outside 10 yards.

 

[flightsimmer]

I have found through experience that barrel length (alone) has little to do with accuracy.
I had, of all things, a 2", 5 shot Charter Arms 38 "Undercover" that I could and did shoot the ten ring out of a regulation 50 ft. target at 50 ft.(one ragged hole) in front of witnesses at a local indoor range back when I was still shooting bullseye leagues but I couldn't do it nowdays because of older eyes.
Anyway, the gun has to be capable of good groups before the shooter can be. Then the rest is the shooters problem.

10mm, when you care enough to send the very best.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Given that it is steel framed I would expect it to group < 2" at 5-7 yards when taking your time shooting DAO, standing, two-handed.

Shooting at speed (as soon as your sights return to target) , I would expect it to be well under 6"...A colt D-frame will usually better that by 2" (3"x5" card)

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

I heard one guy at the gunshop talking to what appeared to be his grandson and told him that you might hit someone about 10 feet away but it's unlikely. I wanted to say something but didn't feel as though I should have contradicted him in front of his grandson. Didn't want him to start doubting his grandfather.

I would say about 4" - 8" at 25 yards.

 

[Deaf Smith]

It all depends on skill J-Bar.

Get a .22 J revolver, it can be S&W or Taurus. And then practice!

50 yard shots in the 'A' zone of a IPSC target is not at all impossible with practice.

Deaf

 

[MuleRyder]

QUOTE:I have found through experience that barrel length (alone) has little to do with accuracy.

I think that it is not necessarily the barrel length, but the short sight radius that makes accuracy difficult.

 

[J-Bar]

I'm glad I consulted you folks. Maybe I didn't do too badly after all.

I set up a standard 25 yard slowfire target at 25 yards (!) and got about a 6 inch group at 7 o'clock. So, based on your feedback, that's at least in the ballpark.

Thanks for the reality check.

 

[rcmodel]

In my younger days, like 35 years ago when I was on the 5th. Inf AMU pistol team?

I won a lot of beer money shooting a S&W Model 36 S&W snubby at a 5 gal bucket or 50 cal ammo can at 100+ yards.

If I couldn't hit it 3 or 4 out of 5 times, it was a really bad day for me.

The 36/60 2" S&W has way more accuracy potential then most of us can take advantage of.

But especially when wearing bifocals.

rc

 

[F-111 John]

Shot this last month. S&W Model 60 .38 spl, 1 7/8" barrel, CCI Blazer 158 LRN, 7 yards, DA, standing.

 

[StrawHat]

Check out what the PPC competitiors do with 2" revovlers at 50 yards. Lots of practice ubt it can be done. When I competed, I would practice at 50 yards and beyond. At the closer ranges, the shots just grouped in the 10 ring.

 

[Remllez]

With snubbies patience, practice, and technique pay off big time! If you learn to make good hits with these little guys it shows up in all areas of your handgun shooting. Go buy a case of wadcutters to start with then experiment until you find the load combo you and the gun like shooting.

Shooting wadcutters at 700 fps is almost like cheating...lol....and that will build your confidence and lessen the learning curve for most shooters. If you try to stay as close to the 158 grain loadings these guns are regulated for you will hit closer to POA and be happy with your groups.

Shooting snubs well requires you to concentrate on the fundamentals of basic marksmanship. Many people think of snubs as short range guns and it's just not true. Like an earlier poster said you can shoot these guns at 50~100 yards with the right loads and some practice.

 

[Drail]

It's kind of amusing at how many of these "how accurate is a ?" threads come up on the gun forums. The answer to all of these is - almost every gun out there is more accurate than most people's shooting skills are. Accuracy is not something that can be bought. It has to be learned and can always be improved. This opinion is based upon years of using a Ransom mechanical rest to test handguns. Unless the gun has some mechanical defect in the barrel's rifling or crown it's going to be more "accurate" than most humans.

 

[littlebluevette]

I have a S&W 637 38 that I shoot weekly and find the stubbies are more accurate than the shooters.

 

[DAdams]

At 7-8 yards you should be able to do something like this with the gutter sight. This was was with the laser off.

 

[DM~]

Short bbled revolvers are very accurate, isn't it Bob Munden that breaks small baloons at 200 yards with his? I know i've made some pretty good groups with my 2" revolver at 50 yards...

DM

 

[BSA1]

I agree with the comments about the excellent accuracy results that can be obtained with a S&W snubby.

In my younger days the Chief of Police of the Department I worked for always carried a nickel plated Model 36. He would reguarly qualify with it shooting out to 25 yards and would beat the entire department of 30 officers.

My point is how hard do you want to work at it to get the results you want?

 

[Old Fuff]

The revolver, mounted in a machine rest, will shoot one-hole groups at 25 yards, and into 3-inches at 50. Hand-held is another matter. You will usually find that you do better with a larger S&W Military & Police (Model 10), K38 Combat Masterpiece/2" (Model 15) or Colt Detective Special - mostly because of better sights and more handle to hold on to. The small J-frame Smith & Wesson's are in my view the hardest of all to shoot accurately.

With any snubby the sight picture is critical because of the margin of error caused by the very short sight radius. With failing eyesight consider glasses that allow you to focus on the front sight and let the target blur. Hold in the middle of the blur. Also consider getting larger stocks and a laser sight, which works well in low light at short distances - and you can focus on the target rather then the sights.

As a side note: Back when... Someone told me that my little Colt Detective Special was only good at distances where I could smell the goblin's bad breath; I would proceed to put all six shots into the K-zone of a B-27 silhouette target at a measured 100 yards - shooting one-handed because we didn't know any better.

 

[rcmodel]

isn't it Bob Munden that breaks small baloons at 200 yards with his?

I believe Bob tapes his balloon to a big steel plate.

Bullet splash breaks the balloon.

rc

 

[Fiv3r]

Both of my .38 snubs are way, way more accurate than I am. I actually shoot my .380 pocket pistol better than my .38's, but I rather like the revolvers better. The classic styling and heft of my father in law's old Model 36 and the fantastic trigger pull of my LCR just make them so much more fun to shoot than my LCP.

I don't have the funds to try and get laser accurate with the short sight radius of the guns to become proficient enough with them to shoot an apple off a head at 25 yards.

My snub nose revolvers are 7-10 yard guns, so that's what I practice at. I can keep my groupings about 2-3" center mass. That's good enough for me for what I need out of them

 

[BCRider]

It would seem that it really comes down to how well a shooter is able to do with any revolver with a suitable grip shape for them.

If they can already shoot a good fitting revolver well then the same grip and trigger control will serve to hold the snubbie in the right manner and the rounds will hit where aimed very nicely.

Now if the shooter doesn't do well with revolvers in general or the snubbie has a grip shape which doesn't suit them at all then I'd say the results would suffer.

Although with the short sight baseline even small errors in the sight picture will result in bigger groups at any given range. But for someone with decently keen eyesight and proper trigger control there's no reason why a snubbie can't be shot as well as, say, a 3 to 4 inch barrel gun.

 

[fastbolt]

The inherent accuracy is going to be better than most shooters can practically realize. It's the shooter that's realistically going to "limit" the potential for accuracy with the little 5-shot guns.

Even a number of skilled revolver shooters accustomed to shooting larger revolvers sometimes experience difficulty in shooting the diminutive snubs.

The very attributes which make the little guns so attractive for their intended purpose often are potential disadvantages for many shooters. Small grip, long & heavy DA trigger, different trigger reach (and therefore "leverage",) rudimentary sights (and harder to see with the older models having the thinner notches and front blades), lighter weight (so more felt recoil), etc.

They can still exhibit some great accuracy for a trained & skilled revolver shooter, though. They even have occasional snub matches where competitors make good shots from some impressive distances, like at 50-60 yards.

FWIW, I usually find I can generally use my assorted J-frames (and some others which are either well-used & abused training guns or which belong to other folks) to get consistent hits on clothespins at 5 yards. It's all about trigger technique & control, which means investing time in continued practice once good revolver trigger technique has been learned on the smaller wheel guns.

Maybe seek out a skilled and experienced revolver shooter or instructor at a local range. Too many folks try to "stage" a revolver trigger during the DA trigger stroke, instead of making it a smooth and quick press while focusing on the sight (and follow-through).

One of my former partners decided to dig out his old model 36 a while back. It had apparently been more than 20 years since he'd carried and used it. Naturally, he was having initial trouble getting consistently accurate hits from 3-10 yards.

Once we reacquainted him with his previous revolver skills (from his service revolver days), and he spent a couple of range sessions working on remembering his DA revolver trigger technique, which had long since fallen into disuse, he started getting solid, well placed hits.

For him, the last thing that seemed necessary to restore his accuracy was getting him to remember to stop trying to "stage" the DA trigger, and just make it a smooth, even & quick press. He was actually pretty surprised by quickly & easily his groups tightened up once he got his trigger control "groove" back.

Got anybody around locally who could lend you some assistance in the way of developing & refining revolver skills regarding the little M60?

 

[glockky]

I have a 12x12 steel plate 42yds from my porch, which me and my shooting buddy have no problem hitting almost every shot off hand with a smith airweight.