Acquisition of patrol rifles for LE agency.

[Johnny Guest]

P.R. Aspects - - -

Yeah, there's that.

BUT, one or two small town Officer Friendlys, in their everyday cop suits, pull up on an active shooter situation at a school. They head in immediately, to save lives. This presents a rather different image than five or a dozen black geared Super Ninja (Reg TM), spending 20 minutes "establishing a perimeter," no matter what kinda carbines they're packing.

Much as I like the .30-30 lever guns, I'd have to lean toward the short AR15, or possibly Mini 14, in the situation you describe. Glad your chief is more concerned about protecting the public, and officer safety, than being PC.

Best,
JPG

 

[bogie]

If you get the ARs, get a coupla cleaning cradles and the attendant action-holder-open dealie and bore guides from Sinclair's... It makes cleaning 'em a LOT simpler/faster/more likely to happen.

 

[olazul]

Matt,

You have mail.

Scott

 

[Cosmoline]

Nothing against AR's

..but they cost a lot of money, especially when you get the selective fire version. The budget for such high-end rifles is often limited. For those officers who aren't lucky enough to have an AR issued, it's FAR better to have a levergun than just a mere pistol.

 

[Matt G]

So far, it's looking highly likely that we'll get at least two M-16s, so the other two or so rifles that we have to make up will likely be AR's. Frankly, I'd as soon that all were AR's rather than selective fire, but you can't beat the cost of FREE. That will free up some money to get the other rifles. If the difference between getting det. magazine fed SA rifles and lever action rifles is only about $300 a unit or so, I can tell you right now that our P.D. will go with the function over the funding. Now, if we were issuing an individual rifle specifically to each officer, the situation may be a little different.

Absolutely, I'll push for cleaning stands and hold-opens! So happens that I purchased one of those nifty hold-open doo-hickeys from Sinclair for my father a coupla years ago. Neat idea. But then, pretty much everything from Sinclair is top notch.

-M.

 

[goon]

Well, an AR is basically a semi-auto M-16, so....
Why not just yank the FA parts out of the M-16's that you guys are getting?

 

[Rick R]

One option I researched a while back was that the Department could buy lower receivers and interested officers could buy the upper with their choice of sighting arrangement. Should the officer leave employment he can dispose of an upper much easier than a LE Only rifle.

One of the guys in the SRT came up with the idea of replacing the bolt carrier from the M16 with one from an AR15. It shoots OK unless you get the selector all the way over to F/A then it'll fire one shot , you work the bolt, one shot, work the bolt...
Not something you'd want in a firefight and I can see someone getting excited enough to move the switch that far. An entire fire control group from DPMS is about $40.00 and would probably be a good investment if you don't want F/A fire.

Also note that the M16's you'll be getting will be A1's complete with small peep sights, triangular handguards and 20" 1 in 14" ( i believe) twist barrels.

IMHO, the A1 stock is exactly the right length for patrol use, you can put an A2 sight in the A1 upper and not have the "Dial A Miss" A2 sight assembly and also have some one put a 16" barrel on the A1 upper. About the only thing you'd be missing out on then would be the brass deflector on the A2 which prevents Lefty "Bang! Ouch!" syndrom.

Rick

 

[Destructo6]

If you replace the bolt carrier on a M16 with a semi bolt carrier, you'll get no shots, since the semi carrier won't trip the auto/safety sear.

It would probably be better to leave it alone or , if you must, replace the trigger, semi sear, and selector switch.

(edited to appear literate)

 

[Alerion]

Matt,

Just a couple of thoughts from a former LEO (and current US Government engineer.)

You'll probably want to go with a semi-auto rifle. Along with being able to get off multiple shots quickly, you also don't have to disturb your point of aim between shots.

I like lever actions, own two, but see them as being the worst choice (excluding single shots) for LEO use. The lever requires a major disturbance of sight picture especially if being supported from below the rifle (sandbags, wall, car hood, etc.) plus most have tube magazines which aren't suitable for rapid reloads.

Fully automatic weapons are probably too much of a security risk to carry in a rack in a patrol car. They're just too much of a target for the bad guys and stuff can/does get stolen even out of locked racks in patrol cars. This is probably why most departments that use full-autos carry them in locked cases secured in the locked trunks of their patrol cars.

I think you want something in a rifle caliber. I think you're on the right track with a .223. The only real advantage to a rifle in a pistol caliber is if you want to interchange ammo with your handgun. You can get .357 rifles but it's a fairly poor round compared to almost any rifle ammo. Plus the .223 should eliminate any recoil concerns.

Is N. Texas ready for LEOs with formerly Soviet rifles? In spite of being fairly liberal in my old age I'm still a Viet Nam vet and anybody with an AK-47 is initially going to be identified as a bad guy. For the most part, I've learned to resist the urge to pump off a couple of quick rounds into anybody carrying one but the thought is probably going to be ingrained into me for the rest of my life. Plus most Soviet guns are pretty aggressive looking. AK's may not yet be PC for a TX PD.

The federal organization that disposes of surplus equipment is the Defense Reutilization and Management Office (DRMO) but they don't dispose of any firearms in useable condition. There are federal programs that will provide servicable, if not new, weapons to PDs. When the new Office of Homeland Security gets into full swing such programs will probably increase. If nothing else, you might contact your US senator(s) and US representitive(s) offices to see if they can connect you with a program. Even if you could qualify for the program by yourselves it doesn't hurt to have a Senator backing you up!

Standardization is the only way to go! That way there's only one rifle for all of your officers to become familiar with and qualify on.

Since I work at the Government facility that produces most of the small arms ammunition for the military (all branches except Air Force) and tests/evaluates small arms, I'll snoop around a little bit to see if I can find any suitable programs. I know we have a civilian/military alliance program here that provides training to civilian police departments so we may have a hand in some of the distribution programs as well. I'll let you know what I find out. It may take me a little while since I work in combat systems and have fairly little contact with the small arms people.

Tom

 

[duckfoot]

http://www.thegunsource.com/rifles/armalite.htm
ARML M15A4 223 16" BLK/BLK $779.52

 

[Damon]

The AR-15 is your best choice. I would recommend contacting http://www.sawlesales.com/.

They specialize in law enforcement sales and have what your are looking for. I am sure they can help you. Good luck.

Cheers,
Damon

 

[Jeff White]

Matt,
There is a purchase program besides 1033 for local agencies. I'll send you a link to the site tomorrow when I get to work. There is about a year wait for M4s and M16A4s last time I cehcked, but M16A1s and A2s can be had in about 30-90 days for very reasonable prices, direct from the military.

Jeff

 

[TJC]

Jeff,

I would be interested in the link also. I was under the impression that the 16's from the govt program had about dried up for now. There are 14's available. An agency next door to us just got some in. The ran about $79 after shipping etc.

Matt,

We just purchased Bushmasters from our LE dealer here in NJ. They were right around $700 for standard 16" guns in semi auto. They come with either a 20 or 30 rd. mag, your choice. We are mounting them vertical between the seats along with the 870's. Setina cage company has a retrofit kit that mounts to the cage. It runs around $360 if you order just the kit to fit to your existing cage.

 

[Jeff White]

TJC,
I think that this is a different program then the one you are referring to. This program is to have DOD purchase the weapons for your agency.

http://tri.army.mil/LC/CS/1122/Section 1122 Program.htm

This page should give you all the info you need.

Jeff

 

[TacticalSquirrel]

My department is also going through the miltary for rifles. From the sounds of it there is no guarantee you will get the rifles in a timely fashion. meaning it could be a year or so. I would still go for them, as your department will grow and they will help in supplying that growth. CAR-15's from DPMS ran under $700 when I got a quote from them. My team leader is sold on the AR, so that's what we're going to be getting, although a couple of guys are really pushing the g-36's. Myself, I tend to really like that SIG 551, but that's even more out of our price range. We also chose not to do full auto. I am issued a FA MP 5, so those situations where it is needed it is available. BUt for the work you will be doing I would say a semi is just fine. One thing I will reccomend is that you possibly look into what will the most common scenario you will use them be in? If you're looking at always using them indoors, hallways, and things like that, the blast from a short 223 hurts. A 20 inch rifle is too unwieldy to be inside. 16 inchers with collapsible stocks can make it, but still can be awkward in really tight areas like trailer houses. I myself would want the 14.5 inch, or if I knew the rifle would only be used in very close range situations then the 11.5 inch barrel. There are many many factors for you guys to consider here when you get these.
Something I think should be looked into and advocated more often is the use of the AK series rifles. Not all cops are gunsaavy, or even care about them. AR's need to have a maintenance schedule and policy adhered to very strictly if they are to be kept in squads. The AK's on the other hand are cop-proof. Rack em, simple to operate, much like a shotgun, and user friendly. They will withstand the abuse that a cop will end up sometimes negligently dishing out to their weapon.
EAA imports the Saiga AK-100 series available to law enforcement. In the .223/5.56 caliber, it wouldn't look so much like an AK if you pick the short model. This model would be easy to get out of squad interiors (please tell me you will keep in it a lock inside the squad and not in the trunk!), easy to maneuver, easy on recoil, and accurate for the job it will be used for. I think the AK-102 is the one I am thinking of. Just food for thought from our experience in this already. We plan on finally putting the money down on our choice in this years budget. Email me if you have any questions. If I don't know the answer I can point you in the directions of those that we have gotten our answeres from that probably would know.

 

[sixgun_symphony]

The CMP might be a resource for your police department.

 

[seeker_two]

www.remington.com/firearms/centerfire/7600syn.htm

As for using high-cap magazines, just how many times are y'all planning to miss?...

 

[Onslaught]

If your dept. does decide to go with the AR-15 (which of course gets my vote...) I just wanted to throw this out there for carrying your spares...

These are made by CQB Solutions. They are rigs designed by LEO's for LEO's. The concept being that LEO's, especially those who carry an AR in the trunk, need something to carry their spares in, but not something to carry a full battle load of 8 to 12 mags.

This thing can ride in the trunk, loaded out, and ready to throw on quickly in case you ever need your rifle. And bonus... it's inexpensive compared to Blackhawk-type gear.

 

[TacticalSquirrel]

When it comes to carrying spares, there will be a ton of options Specops makes a real nice pouch that d-ring clips to your duty belt and around your thigh. I myself, depending on the situation, use a thigh rig or a tac vest setup. If it's an active shooter, then I grab the tac vest and throw on rather than dig out the SWAT belt.