Action Jam Uberti 1851 Colt

[Dukeq27]

Bought an Uberti 1851 “London” Model at a Taylor and Company open house. It was a good price as it was a ding and dent with some small cosmetic flaws. However in my excitement of getting a good deal I didn’t notice it grinding at full cock.I took it home and the grinding was bothersome. I called Taylor’s and they said it just needed breaking in. I took it apart and saw the hand was binding very badly on the arbor and the frame. Most of the binding was on the side opposite the arbor. I filed the hand until it was binding no more and the cocking was smooth. However sometimes if I cock the hammer “too far” the trigger locks. Also when I place the cylinder in the safety notches the action locks up and the wedge has to be removed to free the cylinder. Any insight or help would be appreciated.

 

[sltm1]

Lockup, sounds like the hand is binding on the cylinder ratchet star, I can't tell you exactly how to fix it without examining it, but I'd guess the hand is a little too long.

 

[Dukeq27]

Thanks Sltm1-That’s what I was thinking. Also thinking this one was missed by quality control and ding and dent on the outside could mean inside issues as well. I may try to file the tip of the hand a little at a time. If it doesn’t work I’ll buy a new hand. I really had to file some material off to get the action smooth. The timing seems to be okay. Thanks again.

 

[denster]

Please explain what you mean by "placing the cylinder in the safety notches" ?? Also the roughness you felt was it only just prior to full cock or during the full cycle?

 

[expat_alaska]

Please explain what you mean by "placing the cylinder in the safety notches" ?

The safety notches are the pins between the nipples wherein the hammer can rest when the cylinder has all 6 chambers loaded, but are somewhat fragile and can break easily. Rigdon and Ansley corrected this by milling an additional 6 stop slots on the cylinder and eliminating the pins.

R&A used the system pioneered by Manhattan in 1855 but did not care about infringing upon a USA patent in the CSA.

My Pietta R&A .36, smooth cylinder and part octagon/part round barrel:



Jim

 

[44 Dave]

I bought a London a couple years a go. It did not have the relieved spot on the arbor for hand clearance .
( picture of flat on different gun--DO NOT REMOVE THE ARBOR)

 

[PainlessWolf]

Good afternoon,
Not horning in, just thought I would mention an issue with my Pietta Marshall .44 and see if it was similar. When you cock the revolver, the hammer will travel back a tiny bit past cylinder lockup. If you put a tiny bit of pressure on the trigger while the hammer is cocked, it will click forward a hair but not enough to fire the revolver. Strong trigger pressure is still required to do that. Similar issue?
regards all,

 

[Dukeq27]

Please explain what you mean by "placing the cylinder in the safety notches" ?? Also the roughness you felt was it only just prior to full cock or during the full cycle?

Placing hammer on the pins between chambers/cones.

After filing the hand and the action felt smooth I cocked the hammer fully and sometimes the trigger would not release.

I bought a London a couple years a go. It did not have the relieved spot on the arbor for hand clearance .
( picture of flat on different gun--DO NOT REMOVE THE ARBOR)View attachment 799994

Thanks. I didn’t see a relieved area on the arbor. But I’ll look again. Should the relieved area be on all Colt arbors? And thanks.

 

[Dukeq27]

Good afternoon,
Not horning in, just thought I would mention an issue with my Pietta Marshall .44 and see if it was similar. When you cock the revolver, the hammer will travel back a tiny bit past cylinder lockup. If you put a tiny bit of pressure on the trigger while the hammer is cocked, it will click forward a hair but not enough to fire the revolver. Strong trigger pressure is still required to do that. Similar issue?
regards all,

Similar but the trigger wouldn’t release at all. I had to manipulate the hammer to release back to un-cock and then re-cock. Thanks

 

[denster]

Placing hammer on the pins between chambers/cones.

After filing the hand and the action felt smooth I cocked the hammer fully and sometimes the trigger would not release.

Thanks. I didn’t see a relieved area on the arbor. But I’ll look again. Should the relieved area be on all Colt arbors? And thanks.

I thought that was what you meant but wanted to be sure. Yes the arbor relief flat should be on all colt arbors.

 

[J-Bar]

Locking up on the safety pins: the hammer must fall forward far enough to allow the leg of the bolt to reset on the hammer cam. If the safety pins hold the hammer back (rearward) too far then the bolt is not engaged and remains locked in the cylinder. If you find that this is the issue, you might have to dress the hammer face back a bit; I think that would be easier than messing with the bolt leg and cam which could cause timing problems. Of course, removing metal from the hammer has risks too, so make sure you have correctly identified the problem before doing anything.

 

[Navy Six 2]

In the last few years I've acquired 10 new Uberti 51/61 Navies and a couple new Uberti 60 Armies. None of them has the relief flat cut on the arbor which is irritating when working on the gun with the cylinder removed because the hand doesn't want to clear the arbor while cocking.

 

[denster]

Locking up on the safety pins: the hammer must fall forward far enough to allow the leg of the bolt to reset on the hammer cam. If the safety pins hold the hammer back (rearward) too far then the bolt is not engaged and remains locked in the cylinder. If you find that this is the issue, you might have to dress the hammer face back a bit; I think that would be easier than messing with the bolt leg and cam which could cause timing problems. Of course, removing metal from the hammer has risks too, so make sure you have correctly identified the problem before doing anything.

Nope not the way it works. The pins are between the cones and can only be accessed with the bolt retracted when the hammer is lowered on the pins the bolt rises and contacts the cylinder but doesn't lock it because the notch is not there. When the hammer is on the pins you should, if everything is working right, be able to draw the hammer to full cock and hand will finish the rotation cycle and the bolt will drop into place. I have a gut feeling that the problems have to do with the hand somehow but without having the gun in hand to diagnose it makes it difficult.

 

[denster]

In the last few years I've acquired 10 new Uberti 51/61 Navies and a couple new Uberti 60 Armies. None of them has the relief flat cut on the arbor which is irritating when working on the gun with the cylinder removed because the hand doesn't want to clear the arbor while cocking.

Yes my statement was that is should be there not that it was.

 

[Tommygunn]

In the last few years I've acquired 10 new Uberti 51/61 Navies and a couple new Uberti 60 Armies. None of them has the relief flat cut on the arbor which is irritating when working on the gun with the cylinder removed because the hand doesn't want to clear the arbor while cocking.

In response to Navy Six 2's post, I went and checked the last two Uberti Colt repros I bought, both were civilian versions of the 1860 Army and 1861 Navy. Both of these lacked the relief flat cut on the arbor as Navy Six 2 stated, and 44 Dave's photo stated.
The 1861 works perfectly. The 1860 works when assembled, but when the cylinder removed, the action is very sticky and hangs up, a phenomenon I have not previously noticed.
I also checked some Uberti Colt's I bought a few years ago, still very new in condition. Both those did have the relief flats as pictured in 44 Dave's photo.
The Uberti short arbor "feature" is well documented. We may here have a new feature, the "absent relief cut" feature. I don't know if this is deliberate or not on Uberti's part. Both my revolvers work fine without it, so I'm not going to do anything about it. The fact the 1860 action hangs when disassembled is an annoyance I guess I can live with.
I hope this isn't a permanent feature....it apparently does effect a few revolvers, just not mine. I guess I should be thankful.
I wonder if someone here with the right instruments, if they have an older correct Uberti and a newer one lacking the flat might check to see if other dimensions might have been altered in an attempt to simplify production steps and cut costs?

Now Uberti may have not only the short arbor syndrome, but the relieve cut cancellation problem .....

 

[denster]

In response to Navy Six 2's post, I went and checked the last two Uberti Colt repros I bought, both were civilian versions of the 1860 Army and 1861 Navy. Both of these lacked the relief flat cut on the arbor as Navy Six 2 stated, and 44 Dave's photo stated.
The 1861 works perfectly. The 1860 works when assembled, but when the cylinder removed, the action is very sticky and hangs up, a phenomenon I have not previously noticed.
I also checked some Uberti Colt's I bought a few years ago, still very new in condition. Both those did have the relief flats as pictured in 44 Dave's photo.
The Uberti short arbor "feature" is well documented. We may here have a new feature, the "absent relief cut" feature. I don't know if this is deliberate or not on Uberti's part. Both my revolvers work fine without it, so I'm not going to do anything about it. The fact the 1860 action hangs when disassembled is an annoyance I guess I can live with.
I hope this isn't a permanent feature....it apparently does effect a few revolvers, just not mine. I guess I should be thankful.
I wonder if someone here with the right instruments, if they have an older correct Uberti and a newer one lacking the flat might check to see if other dimensions might have been altered in an attempt to simplify production steps and cut costs?

Now Uberti may have not only the short arbor syndrome, but the relieve cut cancellation problem .....

Would you mind , with your newer Ubertis without the flat, try lowering the hammer on the safety pins and then try to bring it to full cock and see if you notice any resistance.

 

[J-Bar]

Nope not the way it works. The pins are between the cones and can only be accessed with the bolt retracted when the hammer is lowered on the pins the bolt rises and contacts the cylinder but doesn't lock it because the notch is not there. When the hammer is on the pins you should, if everything is working right, be able to draw the hammer to full cock and hand will finish the rotation cycle and the bolt will drop into place. I have a gut feeling that the problems have to do with the hand somehow but without having the gun in hand to diagnose it makes it difficult.

Yes, you are correct. I have had the problem of having the cylinder lock up when the hammer did not fall forward enough on the nipple. I incorrectly extrapolated that to the safety pins. Thanks for the correction.

 

[Tommygunn]

Would you mind , with your newer Ubertis without the flat, try lowering the hammer on the safety pins and then try to bring it to full cock and see if you notice any resistance.

Both work well that way. Safety pins work fine. As I said, only the 1860 action binds, and even then, only when disassembled.

 

[LonesomePigeon]

I bought a Uberti 1851 Navy about 2 years ago and a Uberti 1860 Army a few months ago. Neither of them had the relief cut at the base of the arbor. They cycled fine as long as the cylinder was in but if you took the cylinder off neither one of them could be cycled.

 

[Dukeq27]

I wasn’t sure when I called Taylor and Co. but now I believe the tech was referencing cylinder in and cylinder out operation.

 

[denster]

Yes, you are correct. I have had the problem of having the cylinder lock up when the hammer did not fall forward enough on the nipple. I incorrectly extrapolated that to the safety pins. Thanks for the correction.

You are welcome. I kind of guessed that was what you were thinking of.

 

[denster]

I wasn’t sure when I called Taylor and Co. but now I believe the tech was referencing cylinder in and cylinder out operation.

When you lower the hammer on the pins and then try to cock it does it move back at all even a little also does the cylinder appear to be trying to rotate?

 

[denster]

It didn't hit me last night when reading about fully cocking the gun and the trigger wouldn't release the hammer that you were speaking about cocking the hammer fully with the cylinder out of the gun. Should have been obvious because with the cylinder in you can only cock it till the bolt locks the cylinder. Anyway what is happening is that you are hyper extending the hand when you do that and that locks the hammer. The trigger is no longer in contact with the full cock notch and can't release the hammer which is being held by the hyper extended hand.
One other thing that I recalled was that some early I believe ASMs didn't have the hand clearance on the arbor and their fix was on the top edge of the hand that runs parallel to the arbor they filed a small 45 degree angle and that allowed the hand to slide by the arbor. You might want to check your hand for that angle and if it is not there put one there and I think that will solve your problem with not cocking when down on the pins the reason being when the cylinder is in that position the ratchet tooth you need to contact is already partly raised and the hand is hitting the arbor before it hits the tooth to finish the cycle and binding there filing that angle I spoke of will let it pass and pick up the tooth. That would also be the reason the hand was binding on the off side at full cock as the inner side was being pushed out by the arbor.

 

[Dukeq27]

When you lower the hammer on the pins and then try to cock it does it move back at all even a little also does the cylinder appear to be trying to rotate?

I’ll check it out. I think the hand is poking out too far. With the barrel off the cylinder is a little springy pushing off slightly from the recoil shields when pushed back and released. Thanks.

 

[Dukeq27]

It didn't hit me last night when reading about fully cocking the gun and the trigger wouldn't release the hammer that you were speaking about cocking the hammer fully with the cylinder out of the gun. Should have been obvious because with the cylinder in you can only cock it till the bolt locks the cylinder. Anyway what is happening is that you are hyper extending the hand when you do that and that locks the hammer. The trigger is no longer in contact with the full cock notch and can't release the hammer which is being held by the hyper extended hand.
One other thing that I recalled was that some early I believe ASMs didn't have the hand clearance on the arbor and their fix was on the top edge of the hand that runs parallel to the arbor they filed a small 45 degree angle and that allowed the hand to slide by the arbor. You might want to check your hand for that angle and if it is not there put one there and I think that will solve your problem with not cocking when down on the pins the reason being when the cylinder is in that position the ratchet tooth you need to contact is already partly raised and the hand is hitting the arbor before it hits the tooth to finish the cycle and binding there filing that angle I spoke of will let it pass and pick up the tooth. That would also be the reason the hand was binding on the off side at full cock as the inner side was being pushed out by the arbor.

Thanks. I believe the hand was causing the issue from the beginning. The milling of the hand hole and maybe the initial hand recess in that area seems to be the problem as it is probably a standard hand. I had to file a lot off to make the action smooth and not bind on both sides although most of the rubbing was on the side opposite the arbor. But it is filing by hand after all and I’m not the best and the geometry may have been changed slightly. I don’t take the actions apart everyday and usually brush up with various YouTube videos each time