Activists' home invaded by police. How would you act?

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So basically if the officers at the scene had not beaten him, just arrested him even in light of an exchange of gunfire between them there would have been no case.
There would have been a case, sure- his manslaughter or homicide case.
Even in the face of the officer drawing a gun and kicking a door down to pursue the guy into his own home where the guy shot and killed the officer and was convicted of that offense.
Newsflash- if the police tried to arrest him outside and he ran into the house, the police can and will follow him inside. Perfectly legit. And no, he cannot use force to resist his arrest, whether he is inside or outside of his house.

This assumes that there was an arrestable offense to begin with, of course. This is not mentioned clearly in either of the two cases being discussed. If there wasn't, police intruding into the house was, in both instances, probably a 4th amendment violation. But, that remains to be seen.

Mike
 
havent read the whole thread but this stuck out

"As to what you do, if the police are forcing their way into your house, the best option is to obey their orders and sort it out in court later. One of two things will happen:

1. You'll find out your understanding of the law/situation was wrong, the police had the legal authority to do what they did, and you just avoided making the situation a lot worse by resisting arrest, obstructing justice, or interfering with the arrest of another.

or

2. The cops were wrong, and you and your lawyer are about to get a nice chunk of change from the city."
 
"BTW I expect the flag desecration to be revisited by the SCOTUS and probably overturned, hopefully."

why?? Whilst those that would do such a thing to our flag, what it stands for and where it came from, are sure not the type of people I want to invite over for a burger fries and a cold beer, I honor their freedom of expression and speech.

Agin I say let it get sorted out in court for good or bad. Dont make it worse on yourself by doing something you might live to regret, or NOT live to regret for that matter.

I dont EVEN want to think how something along the lines of me on top of the officer telling him " I am going to use you radio and call for "help" {lol, yeah I could just imagine that call to dispatch "ummmm yeah i have ummm, well ummm i have disarmed and restrained one of your officers out of fear of my saftey and im about to let him up and to grab his weapon, please tell him not to shoot me"} im then going to let you up and let you retrieve your weapon, im going then to prone out, PLEASE dont shoot me when I do.

I dont think this would workout to well with the DMPD, it would most likley just find me an unmarked grave AKA a deep hole somewhere. :eek:

I must yet once AGIN suggest letting it for better or worse get sorted out in a court of law.
 
I just talked with an old friend who remembers "The Fred Sanders" case. He remembered some of the facts I had forgotten. The police were attempting to issue Fred Sanders a ticket for the dog complaint. The problem was the dog did not belong to Fred Sanders. The owner's name was on the collar. The officer refused to listen to Sanders, and in frustration Sanders just walked away and entered his house.

Sanders was an elementary school teacher with no previous problems with law enforcement. He stated that he was in fear of his life when the police officer broke into his house.
 
So, Mr. Sanders was being issued a ticket, decided that he could not talk the officer out of it (correctly or incorrectly- this is why we go to court), so he fled into his house? Sorry. I'd run after him, too.

This still sounds like Mr. Sanders escalated the situation into a flight to avoid prosecution, the officer pursued under the doctrine of fresh pursuit, and Mr. Sanders used lethal force to avoid going to jail.

Naturally, there's a whole passel of details not available, but so far I still read nothing that would lead me to believe that anyone would be shot, beaten or sued if Mr. Sanders had accepted his citation and proclaimed his innocence in court.

Mike
 
As to what you do, if the police are forcing their way into your house, the best option is to obey their orders and sort it out in court later. One of two things will happen:

1. You'll find out your understanding of the law/situation was wrong, the police had the legal authority to do what they did, and you just avoided making the situation a lot worse by resisting arrest, obstructing justice, or interfering with the arrest of another.

or

2. The cops were wrong, and you and your lawyer are about to get a nice chunk of change from the city.

We're a civilized nation. When anyone violates the law- police or citizen- the place to sort it all out is in court, not on the street.

Mike

This statement implies that you can trust the legal system to do its job honestly and impartially. Unfortunately that is not something that can be taken for granted. Judges have agendas. They frequently quash statements and evidence that does not meet their liking. In many areas the "good ole boy" network is alive and well, no matter how strong your case is it has no chance if your are not part of the "club".

Some of the recent incidents coming to light out of Chicago, Atlanta, etc. also show that LEO has no problem lying and obstructing justice when they get called into the spotlight for unsavory actions they are accustomed to getting away with.

If I knew I'd get an honest shake in court when dealing with police abuse of my rights I might be inclined to agree with the premise stated. Unfortunately
the legal system in America has been so seriously coopted in the name of money and power that it is more of a lapdog for those with connections than an arbiter of justice.

As for the Hiibel case regarding the requirments of identifying yourself to LEO... the rulings in that case were handed down by the 6th Judicial Court of Nevada regarding a Nevada law that requires you to identify yourself(Nevadas "stop and identify yourself" statute). The ruling was upheld on appeal by SCOTUS. It only basically applies to Nevada. Other states may or may not have similar laws....YMMV ( or better put..your time behind bars for violating this may vary).
 
Well if that had been me I would have kept driving. "Activists" are always trying to provoke people. Especially those in positions of authority. So don't sweat it.It isn't a physical danger to the community. Why escalate the whole stupid thing?

If a neighbor calls dispatch then deal with it. Get everybody's info and submit to the prosecutor to review for charges. Nobody will be happy, but at least you're not in the newspaper and a topic on THR. Let the PA deal with it. See that's real policework. CYA guys. LMAO.
 
Checkman:

You and I said about the same thing.

By the way, isn't it odd how easy it is to pick a fight?! One silly picture and the world is falling apart.

The whole thing seems pretty silly. ROTFLMBO,

Doc2005
 
It is not that we are anti leo, we just have issues with law enforcement types acting outside of the scope of their lawful enforcement duties.

http://www.esquilax.com/flag/history.html

The following link gives a list of were flag desecration has been upheld by the USSC as a first amendment issue. If the LEO wishes to follow an unconstitutional law, that is between him and his superiors.

The ability to desecrate the flag is not up to the debate of the local court, state court or even the circuit court. It has already been decided.

BTW as I understand it, the city police had already been there to investigate the week before. As it was not an enforcable, they pretty much said "have a nice day" and left. It was a rookie sheriffs deputy that caused this commotion with his uber patriotism and lack of understanding of constitutional decisions from the USSC.

The homeowners did not have a requirement to provide ID because a crime had not been committed. The basis on which the deputy made the assault was not valid. The state may wish to revise its laws after this to be in accordance with supreme court judgments that have been in effect since at least the early 1970's.

As this is a civil rights violation that involved the violation of a home. I hope the individual deputy, his department, and the county pay a large chunk of change to the homeowners.
 
Absolutely Doc2005. I'm always very careful when helping rookies. They have the uncanny ability to stoke a situation by either not reacting strongly enough or over-reacting. Now having once been a rookie I understand that is how you learn, but boy they're scary.

Of course I don't know if that officer was a newbie. Perhaps he was having a bad day. When I have one of those (like yesterday) I lay low and just take calls. Emotions can be dangerous in this job.
 
Well there you go. He was a rookie. Oh why didn't he call his sergeant????? Thirteen years until I retire. Not that I'm counting or anything. Thanks Brerrabbit.Truth be told I just scanned the article.
 
If a neighbor calls dispatch then deal with it. Get everybody's info and submit to the prosecutor to review for charges. Nobody will be happy, but at least you're not in the newspaper and a topic on THR. Let the PA deal with it. See that's real policework. CYA guys. LMAO.
Oddly enough, that's what it seems he was trying to do. The first step in sending a case to the DA is to determine who you're dealing with. From the reports (and yes, the usual caveats apply) he was trying to get the alleged offender's ID. I would presume this was for either obtaining an indictment or writing a citation...both of which are basically different ways to put a case before the DA.

And, Xrayboy- if you mistrust the courts so badly that resiting arrest becomes a viable alternative, it follows logically that your only hope of salvation, should this scenario occur, is to win the fight at your house and then go on the run for the rest of your days. I mean, it's not like the courts are going to be more inclined to give you a fair shake just because you prove efficient at resisting arrest.

Mike ;)
 
Actually Coranach

This case is akin to be told to get to the back of the bus by an LEO because you are black. At what point should you resist a blatantly unconstitutional action by LEO?

The fact that the LEO does not know any better is an issue between the deputy and his department, not the homeowners. The fact that the LEO made it the homeowners issue is the reason for the resistance, and hopefully for the payolla after everyone concerned is sued for civil rights violations.
 
Well there you go. He was a rookie. Oh why didn't he call his sergeant????? Thirteen years until I retire. Not that I'm counting or anything. Thanks Brerrabbit.Truth be told I just scanned the article.
If he had initiated an arrest, he would lose fresh pursuit if he called for a supervisor. However, if he had not initiated an arrest, he was probably committing a 4th amendment violation...merely summoning a supervisor won't help you there. ;)

There are two issues here: was it legal to do what he did, and was it a good diea to do what he did? Not knowing the facts, I really cannot decide on either one. I've been in lots of situations where cooler heads (on boh sides) would make it all better, but I've also been in ones where there's just no reasoning with people. Which was this? No idea.

Mike
 
This case is akin to be told to get to the back of the bus by an LEO because you are black. At what point should you resist a blatantly unconstitutional action by LEO?
So, let's consider...

A cop shows up at my door and is mad that I have a Penn State flag and I'm on Ohio State country. He's going to write me a ticket for Illegal Flying of the Nittany Lion. I feel this law is totally bogus and unconstitutional. Do I:

A. Refuse to give him my information, prompting him to place me under arrest, and then resist said arrest by running into my house, prompting him to kick down my door and, probably, use force on me inside. I then take my case for Illegal Flying of the Nittany Lion to court, along with my resisting arrest charge, and my obstructing official business charge, after I spend the night in jail. At court, I end up with everything dismissed, and ponder my options for malicious prosecution and possible color of law violations.

B. Tell the officer I think it is bogus, but sign for receipt of the citation. I then go to court and get everything dismissed, and ponder my options for malicious prosecution and possible color of law violations.

I dunno, dude. One of those seems a lot easier than the other one, and they both end up the same way.

You decide.

Mike
 
Coranach

The problem is that you do not feel that the law is bogus, you know that the law is bogus and can back it up with caselaw from the supreme court.

If the original premise of arrest is wrong, how can you be charged for resisting it? How can it color your case afterwards other than providing a few more civil rights violation to lay upon the deputy and his department when you get it to court?

A night in jail is a small price to pay for standing up for my rights. Far better men have paid a higher price.
 
This is rediculous from the leo point of view. Sorry Coronach, and others defending the point, but the leo's actions are bad in any case. From what we are told in the story, the leo did not attempt to arrest this man. In fact, the leo never says he attempted to arrest the man.

Hot headed "patriotism" (and by that I mean blind nationalism) seems to be the leo's problem.

Could these folks have handled this situation better? No doubt. But, this is the USA. They didn't have to. It is up to the leo to show more restraint in this situation. Unless these folks were hurting someone else (which they were not), the cop didn't have to take this to the next level. Police are never supposed to escalate things, and this one did.

End of case. And by the way, I hope the local government and the police officer get sued. As for the cop, I hope he loses his life savings, or atleast has to make restitution payments for a while (if only).

As for myself, I would have allowed arrest, if that was what the deputy wanted to get done. I'd likely be taking money from the county. As for the deputy, if he wants to mess up his life and send a check to me for the rest of his life, I'm all for it. I'd fight it. 1st Amendment violation all the way. If the deputy doesn't want to arrest me, but just gives me a hard time, I'd let him, and put the flag back out later.

Granted, you do this, and you have to realize that you are asking for the heaping of monkey dung upon yourself, and you better have a good idea about how to handle it.
 
Brerrabbit;

This is where the whole thing gets really crazy: Although I believe the law in question is invalid, nonetheless if the officer REASONABLY BELIEVED that the violation was valid, than any civil suit would be summarily dismissed, since the action was within the scope of his duty. (More than likely, the county will settle for some $)

This is how officers that accidentally kill someone in a high speed pursuit walk. It's called qualified immunity.

You may feel that a night in jail is a small price to pay. Generally, if you fight, it's not just a night in jail, you'll be the recipient of the "minimum amount of force necessary to arrest" you. The badder you are, the worse it gets. Sanders, having done 3 years hard time, and now stripped of those rights, may feel that the $78k wasn't worth it.

When it comes down to it, you either get the fact that discretion is the better part of valor, or you don't. The funny part is that the hardest, baddest parolee MFers are the ones that get this, no problem. They may kill you, but they sure as hell aren't going to do something stupid. It's the decent folks who get a little drunk and now you have a 120 lb woman fighting you like crazy because she won't go. The worst part is when people get squirrelly in front of their kids, and you have to use force.

If an LEO is telling you to get to the back of the bus, you either 1) do it, and sue; 2) don't do it, and peacefully get arrested (civil disobiedience) and sue; 3) don't do it and fight, get your butt whupped, and then face additional charges which would probably stick even if the original charge is bogus (see Sanders), and get a nominal settlement from the city to shut you up about it. Like I said, you either get it, or don't.

-John
 
Mordechai; Another thing to clear up. An LEO doesn't have to say "you're under arrest" or read you your rights in order to arrest you. Restraining you in any way constitutes an arrest, and is valid. The first thing you might know that you're getting arrested is when an officer grabs you.

I know of an old dope cop who, in the old days, would walk up to the local crack dealers and start talking to them. Crack dealers keep their crack in their mouths. They faced a tricky proposition. They can swallow their crack and then have no dope on them, but this messes them up, since they're out of business for 12 or so hours, and then the have to pick their rocks out of their crap before putting it back in their mouths and going back to work. (Reason 1,000,001 never to smoke crack) So they're reluctant to swallow their dope until the last possible moment, even when an officer was talking to them. Anyways, once this officer determined they were holding crack, he would grap their necks, wrestle them to the ground, and make them spit out their dope before they could swallow it. He made dozens of cases this way. The arrest began when he put his hands around the suspects neck and prevented them from swallowing.

The moral of the story: If you're dirty, the cops can do amazing things to catch you. If not, they can't. If they're mistaken, they pay.

-John
 
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thexrayboy;

I think you have it backwards. In fact, the exact opposite is true. When the Supreme Court decides, it makes it the law of the land EVERYWHERE in the US. Even in places with no laws on the books, the Supreme Court decision applies. For example, my state has no "stop and ID" law. Now, during a detention, officers can make people ID themselves, based on this caselaw. Since there's no law on the books, officers in my area would just take them down to the police station for fingerprints, etc. If they wanted to book them for a violation, the would do so under the blanket section of "delaying or resisting a peace officer". Since officers can compel you to ID yourself to the officer's reasonable satisfaction, failing to do is unlawfully delaying them.

I hope this helps.

-John
 
Sorry John C

An LEO does not get immunity nor does his department if he thought an unconstitutional act was within his authority. Again in comes down to the Jim Crow type laws that are still on the books in many states. Do you think a deputy is going to get a pass on trying to enforce one of them ? It comes down to training or the lack of.

Neither the state nor the federal government have the power to legislate that their agents get a free pass on unconstitutional acts. Any charges laid upon afterward such as resisting arrest for an unconstitutional law just provide more fodder for the lawsuit. Is an arrest valid in court ifs it is unconstitutional, are the later piled on charges based on an unconstitutional arrest going to stand up in court?

The issue in my arguements is knowing your rights, not feeling that this is your right.

.
If an officer kills an individual while executing an unconstitutional act, he goes to jail same as anyone else. Unless you have caselaw providing precedent that LEO's have qualified immunity while performing unconstitutional acts,,,?I

About the only thing this Sherriffs department can do now is to profusely apologize, repair the home and hope they do not get sued.

It basically comes down to the fact that a rookie deputy acted independantly of his department upon the urging of his freinds in a veterans group and involved his department in probable legal action. His action 's were initiated on political grounds and should end in the courts.
 
Brerrabbit;

Looking up qualified immunity in wikipedia would shed some light on this. The issue is whether the officer REASONABLY believed he was acting legally. The law allows for honest screw-ups on the part of LEOs. If another officer of similar training and experience would have likely done something similar, qualified immunity could come into play.

I know many officers who've had their searches declared illegal. The only benefit to the suspect in those cases is the fruits of those searches were excluded from the court case. The other charges, including resisting, etc. stuck.

I'm not saying this will happen in the NC activist case. I'm just raising this possibility. Again, the moral of the story is discretion is the better part of valor.

If an LEO makes a legitimate mistake on a constitutional issue, all you get is an "ollie-ollie oxen-free" on the ORIGINAL charge. Other charges may not stick, if they can't stand on their own. But if they can, sucks to be you.

What you're referring to is blatantly unconstitutional acts, or a pattern or practice of abuse. This, along with assault under color of authority and other federal statutes are what opens the can of whup-a$$ on police officers. But often, the benefit of the doubt goes to the officer, by design, so that there is no direct penalty for inadvertently crossing the line, or crossing it where it is blurry or gray.

So, although the original issue is likely unconstitution, in my opinion, there is still a lot of room for the courts to sort out to what degree the additional charges stick, or not.

I agree with your final paragraph. The funny thing about the law, is that probably doesn't matter, as long as the officer can cobble together a legitimate rationale. In my area, from what I've seen, this officer would lose his job, but would appeal to the civil service commission and get it back with back pay. The county would settle for a couple of $100k, without admitting culpability. NC is likely completely different.

I want to make it clear that I don't condone the deputy's action at all. He really stepped in it, legally and politically. However, when this all shakes out, it likely won't be cut and dried.

My point is to dispel this sort of frontiersman myth that barricading yourself in your house is the appropriate way to protect your rights. History suggests that this will end up worse off for you than doing like Hunter S. Thompson: "Send lawyers, guns, and money".

-John
 
"Those that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin, (1759)
 
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